Trevor Wilson wrote:


What the OP needs to do is listen to those who are experienced with real
*buildable* circuits and follow the advice he likes the sound of best -
he's got to start somewhere and damn near every 'normal' PP amp on the
planet owes summat to the early Mullard designs (AFAIK) so why struggle
against it??


**Why trust what people say? Some people are seriously deluded. How is Max
to know if the people he is speaking to know anything at all? MUCH better
for him to listen to a product, BEFORE plonking down the cash.


Because the OP asked about BUILDING a amplifier, given you find this
mythical dealer that lets you geard some commercial amps, what then, ask
the maker for the winding schedule for their TX's


(Different with SETs of course, but I'd recommend a SET as a start amp for
a number of reasons!)


**SETs are for idiots.

"Why trust what people say? Some people are seriously deluded."

--
Nick

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Trevor Wilson wrote:


What the OP needs to do is listen to those who are experienced with real
*buildable* circuits and follow the advice he likes the sound of best -
he's got to start somewhere and damn near every 'normal' PP amp on the
planet owes summat to the early Mullard designs (AFAIK) so why struggle
against it??


**Why trust what people say? Some people are seriously deluded. How is
Max to know if the people he is speaking to know anything at all? MUCH
better for him to listen to a product, BEFORE plonking down the cash.


Because the OP asked about BUILDING a amplifier, given you find this
mythical dealer that lets you geard some commercial amps, what then, ask
the maker for the winding schedule for their TX's

**How will he know what to build, unless he can listen to it? Valve amps
mostly sound different to each other. Their sound is largely differentiated
by the topolgy, the output transformers and the valves used. Without a good
listen to the amps, it is a total crap shoot. MUCH better to listen to
several amps and make a choice from those.



(Different with SETs of course, but I'd recommend a SET as a start amp
for a number of reasons!)


**SETs are for idiots.

"Why trust what people say? Some people are seriously deluded."

**Want me to explain to you why SET amps are for idiots? I'm quite happy to
explain in exquisite detail, that any technical person can understand.
You'll need to explain it to Iain though. He's not too bright in things
technical.

In any case, performing a blind test between a SET amp and pretty much
anything else is a most sobering experience.

Trevor Wilson

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Trevor Wilson wrote:


What the OP needs to do is listen to those who are experienced with real
*buildable* circuits and follow the advice he likes the sound of best -
he's got to start somewhere and damn near every 'normal' PP amp on the
planet owes summat to the early Mullard designs (AFAIK) so why struggle
against it??


**Why trust what people say? Some people are seriously deluded. How is
Max to know if the people he is speaking to know anything at all? MUCH
better for him to listen to a product, BEFORE plonking down the cash.


Because the OP asked about BUILDING a amplifier, given you find this
mythical dealer that lets you geard some commercial amps, what then, ask
the maker for the winding schedule for their TX's

**How will he know what to build, unless he can listen to it? Valve amps
mostly sound different to each other. Their sound is largely
differentiated by the topolgy, the output transformers and the valves
used. Without a good listen to the amps, it is a total crap shoot. MUCH
better to listen to several amps and make a choice from those.



(Different with SETs of course, but I'd recommend a SET as a start amp
for a number of reasons!)


**SETs are for idiots.

"Why trust what people say? Some people are seriously deluded."

**Want me to explain to you why SET amps are for idiots? I'm quite happy
to explain in exquisite detail, that any technical person can understand.
You'll need to explain it to Iain though. He's not too bright in things
technical.

Trevor. Some time ago, It became clear to me after reading
some of your posts, that Patrick Turner (acknowledged by
one and all to be a man of considerable expertise in things
thermionic) was correct when he wrote in a Usenet post
(I paraphrase) "There is nothing that TW can teach Iain
or probably anyone else here about valve/tube audio.
He is an SS audio salesman with little knowledge and
no practical experience in valve amp construction"

I remember also that when asked how many tube amps
you had built in the past 25 years, the reply was "None"

And yet, here you are "advising" the OP about what *not*
to build.

What you lack in experience you certainly make up for in
prejudice:-)

In any case, performing a blind test between a SET amp and pretty much
anything else is a most sobering experience.

Surely you are not naive enough to think that people do not listen
carefully to a selection of amplifiers before making their choice?


Iain

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Trevor Wilson wrote:


What the OP needs to do is listen to those who are experienced with
real
*buildable* circuits and follow the advice he likes the sound of best -
he's got to start somewhere and damn near every 'normal' PP amp on the
planet owes summat to the early Mullard designs (AFAIK) so why struggle
against it??


**Why trust what people say? Some people are seriously deluded. How is
Max to know if the people he is speaking to know anything at all? MUCH
better for him to listen to a product, BEFORE plonking down the cash.


Because the OP asked about BUILDING a amplifier, given you find this
mythical dealer that lets you geard some commercial amps, what then, ask
the maker for the winding schedule for their TX's

**How will he know what to build, unless he can listen to it? Valve amps
mostly sound different to each other. Their sound is largely
differentiated by the topolgy, the output transformers and the valves
used. Without a good listen to the amps, it is a total crap shoot. MUCH
better to listen to several amps and make a choice from those.



(Different with SETs of course, but I'd recommend a SET as a start amp
for a number of reasons!)


**SETs are for idiots.

"Why trust what people say? Some people are seriously deluded."

**Want me to explain to you why SET amps are for idiots? I'm quite happy
to explain in exquisite detail, that any technical person can understand.
You'll need to explain it to Iain though. He's not too bright in things
technical.

Trevor. Some time ago, It became clear to me after reading
some of your posts, that Patrick Turner (acknowledged by
one and all to be a man of considerable expertise in things
thermionic) was correct when he wrote in a Usenet post
(I paraphrase) "There is nothing that TW can teach Iain
or probably anyone else here about valve/tube audio.
He is an SS audio salesman with little knowledge and
no practical experience in valve amp construction"

**You are, of course, incorrect. That won't stop you from lying and
misrepresenting my position, nor my words in the future, however. You've
made it into something of an art form. You are a lying piece of ****.


I remember also that when asked how many tube amps
you had built in the past 25 years, the reply was "None"

**That much is correct. I ceased building valve equipment sometime around
1980. No point. Transistor technology had advanced to a point where valve
equipment offered no improvement in performance. Prior to that time, I was
using a valve preamp of my own construction. I found it significantly better
than any commercial transistor design. In 1980, I was presented with a
product (transistor) which caused me to revise my opinions, however. I have
never looked back. I will certainly acknowledge that I have heard a valve
preamp which is the equal of my transistor preamp. The Conrad Johnson
Premier 16. An utterly amazingly excellent preamp. Low distortion, very
quiet (low microphonics, too) and wide bandwidth. As good as my transistor
preamp and quite a steal at *only* ten times the price.


And yet, here you are "advising" the OP about what *not*
to build.

**No. I am advising him to LISTEN, before he plonks down a single cent.


What you lack in experience you certainly make up for in
prejudice:-)

**My alleged lack of experience is in your own, deluded brain.


In any case, performing a blind test between a SET amp and pretty much
anything else is a most sobering experience.

Surely you are not naive enough to think that people do not listen
carefully to a selection of amplifiers before making their choice?

**Lots of people don't listen. Keith is one.

I will continue to challenge your lies. Do not think you can get away with
them. You won't.

Trevor Wilson

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


a tidy up


**You are, of course, incorrect. That won't stop you from lying and
misrepresenting my position, nor my words in the future, however.
You've made it into something of an art form. You are a lying piece of
****.


Iain needs to gauge better how to play you without breaking the line....


Surely you are not naive enough to think that people do not listen
carefully to a selection of amplifiers before making their choice?

**Lots of people don't listen. Keith is one.


Correct. I see an amp I think might be of interest (from what experience
I have gathered) I grab it, haul it home and put it through its paces -
over a period of weeks or even months. If it makes the grade it stays,
if it don't it's gone and I am a little wiser by that amp. (Stupid
behaviour really - I only made 600 quid profit on the 'blameless' but
boring* Technics... ;-)

Same with speakers - build 'em and run 'em - bigger gamble that one, my
biggest cabinets are down in the garage *on hold*!!

Turntables? Feck me, half the fun of 'em is to make them sing! (Then you
end up with 3 of 'em under the bed, like I do atm!!)

Digital? What's to hear? What's to compare??

So it goes on - nothing more desperate in my book than some **** ****ing
about in a shop on the shop's kit trying to pick the better of two
bloody silly little overpriced SS amps, neither of which has got a power
supply big enough to run a decent Phono Stage...

If I were to be honest and someone asked me about a bit of kit that I
deemed (in my wisdom) to be at least *passable* I'd tell 'em 'just buy
the ****ing thing, take it home and get used to it'!


*No, I mean seriously ****ing boring - never mind the 'uncoloured' ****,
I mean *boring* like my attention wandered....

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


a tidy up


**You are, of course, incorrect. That won't stop you from lying and
misrepresenting my position, nor my words in the future, however. You've
made it into something of an art form. You are a lying piece of ****.


Iain needs to gauge better how to play you without breaking the line....

**Not lying would be an excellent start. An ability he clearly lacks.

Trevor Wilson

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


a tidy up


**You are, of course, incorrect. That won't stop you from lying and
misrepresenting my position, nor my words in the future, however.
You've made it into something of an art form. You are a lying piece
of ****.


Iain needs to gauge better how to play you without breaking the
line....

**Not lying would be an excellent start. An ability he clearly lacks.


And you need to gauge better the company here - I don't think there's a
single regular here that bothers to post *lies*, Trevor...

(I though all that 'lying POS' claptrap had gone South with Pinky...??)

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


a tidy up


**You are, of course, incorrect. That won't stop you from lying and
misrepresenting my position, nor my words in the future, however. You've
made it into something of an art form. You are a lying piece of ****.


Iain needs to gauge better how to play you without breaking the line....


Mixed metaphors here Keith. Not "fish and line" but "red rags and bulls"
Poor old Trev is the bull, and SET is the red rag:-) Even the mention of
it it has him snorting, foaming at the mouth and clawing at the ground in
desperation.

Iain


PS The text below, written on Usenet by Patrick Turner on 22nd
October 2007.

"It should be well known that our Trevor has a mental block about
single ended triode amplifiers, and its no use arguing with him.

I have given up years ago after several attempts and logic and reason.
I've based all my long detailed arguments on the technical facts about
hi-fi and the limits of tolerances for it.
And upon the basic workings of what can be achieved and what cannot with
SE amplifiers.

So I would advise ppl not to bother arguing with TW about this issue;
nobody is ever going to change his mind.

And its all been argued ad infinitum at least 4 times by different ppl
and myself and with all the same tired old BS exchanges. See the
archives, and you'll get my drift at least"

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Trevor Wilson wrote:


What the OP needs to do is listen to those who are experienced with
real
*buildable* circuits and follow the advice he likes the sound of
best -
he's got to start somewhere and damn near every 'normal' PP amp on the
planet owes summat to the early Mullard designs (AFAIK) so why
struggle
against it??


**Why trust what people say? Some people are seriously deluded. How is
Max to know if the people he is speaking to know anything at all? MUCH
better for him to listen to a product, BEFORE plonking down the cash.


Because the OP asked about BUILDING a amplifier, given you find this
mythical dealer that lets you geard some commercial amps, what then,
ask
the maker for the winding schedule for their TX's

**How will he know what to build, unless he can listen to it? Valve amps
mostly sound different to each other. Their sound is largely
differentiated by the topolgy, the output transformers and the valves
used. Without a good listen to the amps, it is a total crap shoot. MUCH
better to listen to several amps and make a choice from those.



(Different with SETs of course, but I'd recommend a SET as a start amp
for a number of reasons!)


**SETs are for idiots.

"Why trust what people say? Some people are seriously deluded."

**Want me to explain to you why SET amps are for idiots? I'm quite happy
to explain in exquisite detail, that any technical person can
understand.
You'll need to explain it to Iain though. He's not too bright in things
technical.

Trevor. Some time ago, It became clear to me after reading
some of your posts, that Patrick Turner (acknowledged by
one and all to be a man of considerable expertise in things
thermionic) was correct when he wrote in a Usenet post
(I paraphrase) "There is nothing that TW can teach Iain
or probably anyone else here about valve/tube audio.
He is an SS audio salesman with little knowledge and
no practical experience in valve amp construction"

**You are, of course, incorrect. That won't stop you from lying and
misrepresenting my position, nor my words in the future, however. You've
made it into something of an art form. You are a lying piece of ****.

Trevor. It is impossible for you to discuss in a calm and rational
way, without recourse to invective. You are sounding more like
Pinky by the day:-)


Anyone can check the archive to find that my paragraph above is
sadly correct. Sadder still is the fact that since he made that
statement, you have confirmed Patrick's findings in any number of
tube audio related posts.


**No. I am advising him to LISTEN, before he plonks down a single cent.


Others have asked. How can he listen to it before he has built it????

Surely you are not naive enough to think that people do not listen
carefully to a selection of amplifiers before making their choice?

**Lots of people don't listen. Keith is one.

I will continue to challenge your lies. Do not think you can get away with
them. You won't.

Nothing to challenge. Anyone can check. .

A short while ago I was travelling in India. I spent an evening in
the company of a Jainist mystic/philosopher. He told me that he
believed that after death we each go to our own private hell.

So you can look forward to an eternity of Shostakovich Quartets
on SET amps with Lowthers, whioe the furnaces are fired with
ME amplifiers and HK cheapo CD players:-)

Iain

On Nov 5, 3:27 pm, "Iain Churches" wrote (to
Trevor Wilson):

A short while ago I was travelling in India. I spent an evening in
the company of a Jainist mystic/philosopher. He told me that he
believed that after death we each go to our own private hell.

You're not "going maharishi" on us, are you, Iain? Keep sawing those
logs and it will be thirty years before you have to worry about the
disposition of your soul.

So you [Trevor Wilson] can look forward to an eternity of Shostakovich Quartets

While I will agree that an unalleviated repeat cycle of all the
Shostakovich String Quartets is a fitting punishment for incorrigible
silicon bores...

on SET amps with Lowthers,

....I think it would be unduly forgiving to permit such people SET and
Lowther. Let's not go soft on the punishments here.

whioe the furnaces are fired with
ME amplifiers and HK cheapo CD players:-)

LOL.

Iain

Andre Jute
I knows what I likes