"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Laurence Payne" NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com wrote
"Trevor Wilson" wrote:

**Forget second hand, unless you are prepared to throw a new laser in a
decent exotic machine. IMO, the best value around today is the Harman
Kardon HD970. Brilliant machine for not too much cash. It'll even play
MP3s.

Looked it up.

**A waste of time. Go listen to it. It is a very fine sounding machine.

The "...exclusive sound improvement system based on the
Real Time Linear Smoothing III, optimizing the sound level and
quality" worries me a little. Smacks of audiophile snake-oil. Can it
be switched out?

**Nope. IMO, the good sound of the HD970 is likely to be related to the
excellent DAC used and the very impressive, all discrete transistor
output
stages. Quality OP amps complement the mix.

I look forward to your detailed analysis of why a DISCRETE output stage
performs any better than an INTEGRATED one.

**It doesn't per se. It depends on the topology of the discrete stage and
the topology of the IC. A decent OP amp will outperform a crappy discrete
stage any day.


It's just yet more marketing ******** appealing to pseudo-technical
prejudices.

**Just listen to one and get back to me. Until then, you are arguing from a
point of ignorance. Don't forget: We aren't discussing some fancy
multi-thousand Dollar CD player. The HK is very modestly priced.

Trevor Wilson

Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Laurence Payne" NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com wrote
"Trevor Wilson" wrote:

**Forget second hand, unless you are prepared to throw a new laser in a
decent exotic machine. IMO, the best value around today is the Harman
Kardon HD970. Brilliant machine for not too much cash. It'll even play
MP3s.

Looked it up.

**A waste of time. Go listen to it. It is a very fine sounding machine.

The "...exclusive sound improvement system based on the
Real Time Linear Smoothing III, optimizing the sound level and
quality" worries me a little. Smacks of audiophile snake-oil. Can it
be switched out?

**Nope. IMO, the good sound of the HD970 is likely to be related to the
excellent DAC used and the very impressive, all discrete transistor
output
stages. Quality OP amps complement the mix.

I look forward to your detailed analysis of why a DISCRETE output stage
performs any better than an INTEGRATED one.

**It doesn't per se. It depends on the topology of the discrete stage and
the topology of the IC. A decent OP amp will outperform a crappy discrete
stage any day.

I'm glad you agree.


It's just yet more marketing ******** appealing to pseudo-technical
prejudices.

**Just listen to one and get back to me. Until then, you are arguing from a
point of ignorance. Don't forget: We aren't discussing some fancy
multi-thousand Dollar CD player. The HK is very modestly priced.

Still doesn't change the fact that the marketing of it is pandering to
quasi-snake-oil (negative) perceptions about ICs.

Graham

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Laurence Payne" NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com wrote
"Trevor Wilson" wrote:

**Forget second hand, unless you are prepared to throw a new laser
in a
decent exotic machine. IMO, the best value around today is the
Harman
Kardon HD970. Brilliant machine for not too much cash. It'll even
play
MP3s.

Looked it up.

**A waste of time. Go listen to it. It is a very fine sounding
machine.

The "...exclusive sound improvement system based on the
Real Time Linear Smoothing III, optimizing the sound level and
quality" worries me a little. Smacks of audiophile snake-oil. Can
it
be switched out?

**Nope. IMO, the good sound of the HD970 is likely to be related to
the
excellent DAC used and the very impressive, all discrete transistor
output
stages. Quality OP amps complement the mix.

I look forward to your detailed analysis of why a DISCRETE output stage
performs any better than an INTEGRATED one.

**It doesn't per se. It depends on the topology of the discrete stage and
the topology of the IC. A decent OP amp will outperform a crappy discrete
stage any day.

I'm glad you agree.

**Never been in doubt. There are some exceptionally excellent OP amps
available now.



It's just yet more marketing ******** appealing to pseudo-technical
prejudices.

**Just listen to one and get back to me. Until then, you are arguing from
a
point of ignorance. Don't forget: We aren't discussing some fancy
multi-thousand Dollar CD player. The HK is very modestly priced.

Still doesn't change the fact that the marketing of it is pandering to
quasi-snake-oil (negative) perceptions about ICs.

**Really? Care to cite where HK mention that it uses a discrete transistor
output stage in any of it's advertising propaganda?

Trevor Wilson

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:31:24 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

It's just yet more marketing ******** appealing to pseudo-technical
prejudices.

**Just listen to one and get back to me. Until then, you are arguing from a
point of ignorance. Don't forget: We aren't discussing some fancy
multi-thousand Dollar CD player. The HK is very modestly priced.

It's several times the price of a utility model. It doubtless uses
the same transport. I'd need convincing that the extra few pennies
they spent on the power supply and output circuit (if they did) were
worth it.

"Laurence Payne" NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:31:24 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

It's just yet more marketing ******** appealing to pseudo-technical
prejudices.

**Just listen to one and get back to me. Until then, you are arguing from
a
point of ignorance. Don't forget: We aren't discussing some fancy
multi-thousand Dollar CD player. The HK is very modestly priced.

It's several times the price of a utility model. It doubtless uses
the same transport.

**Sure. Transports are the least significant part of any system. The
important stuff occurs elsewhere.

I'd need convincing that the extra few pennies
they spent on the power supply and output circuit (if they did) were
worth it.

**Then listen to one. You may well be convinced. Or not.

Trevor Wilson

"Trevor Wilson" writes:

"Laurence Payne" NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com wrote in message
...

It's several times the price of a utility model. It doubtless uses
the same transport.

**Sure. Transports are the least significant part of any system. The
important stuff occurs elsewhere.

Ahem, I know what you mean but I can't help myself: The transport
is what does not work in my case and if that does not work...

My other and more significant comment: this had already turned
into a food fight. I should have known better than to ask for
advice here.

--
Martin Schöön

"Problems worthy of attack
prove their worth by hitting back"
Piet Hein

On 17 Dec 2007 09:37:17 +0100, (Schöön Martin)
wrote:

**Sure. Transports are the least significant part of any system. The
important stuff occurs elsewhere.

Ahem, I know what you mean but I can't help myself: The transport
is what does not work in my case and if that does not work...

My other and more significant comment: this had already turned
into a food fight. I should have known better than to ask for
advice here.

Lucky you didn't ask on an audiophile group :-)

You've had good advice. Some of us think any competent unit will do.
One person thinks you'll benefit from paying a moderate amount more.
No-one has encouraged you to pay silly money for an audiophile unit,
or suggested mortgaging your house to buy magic cables. What did you
want to hear?

Laurence Payne NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com writes:

On 17 Dec 2007 09:37:17 +0100, (Schöön Martin)
wrote:

**Sure. Transports are the least significant part of any system. The
important stuff occurs elsewhere.

Ahem, I know what you mean but I can't help myself: The transport
is what does not work in my case and if that does not work...

My other and more significant comment: this had already turned
into a food fight. I should have known better than to ask for
advice here.

Lucky you didn't ask on an audiophile group :-)

You've had good advice. Some of us think any competent unit will do.
One person thinks you'll benefit from paying a moderate amount more.
No-one has encouraged you to pay silly money for an audiophile unit,
or suggested mortgaging your house to buy magic cables. What did you
want to hear?

This was what I (and my wallet) hoped to hear. I was just disparing
over how soon the SNR degraded even here.

--
Martin Schöön

"Problems worthy of attack
prove their worth by hitting back"
Piet Hein

""Schöön Martin"" wrote in message
...
"Trevor Wilson" writes:

"Laurence Payne" NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com wrote in message
...

It's several times the price of a utility model. It doubtless uses
the same transport.

**Sure. Transports are the least significant part of any system. The
important stuff occurs elsewhere.

Ahem, I know what you mean but I can't help myself: The transport
is what does not work in my case and if that does not work...

**Duh.


My other and more significant comment: this had already turned
into a food fight. I should have known better than to ask for
advice here.

**Just go listen to the HK. You will not be disappointed. At worst it will
sound no better than any other player. At best, it will surprise and delight
you, by clobbering some very expensive machines.

Trevor Wilson

"Laurence Payne" NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 10:31:24 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

It's just yet more marketing ******** appealing to pseudo-technical
prejudices.

**Just listen to one and get back to me. Until then, you are arguing from
a
point of ignorance. Don't forget: We aren't discussing some fancy
multi-thousand Dollar CD player. The HK is very modestly priced.

It's several times the price of a utility model. It doubtless uses
the same transport. I'd need convincing that the extra few pennies
they spent on the power supply and output circuit (if they did) were
worth it.

well just go a cheapy TEAC then