What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
It's a *syndrome* - a lifetime spent in 'audio' seems to turn a certain
percentage of the self-styled 'audio engineers' into serious malcontents
and makes them sour. We seen enough of them here, have we not?

It's quite common when pros have to deal with untalented amateurs in any
field. Especially those who try and re-invent the wheel.

Unfortunately, I've got a few who not only want me to re-invent the wheel,
but they want me to do all of their dirty work, and according their
botched-up plan. If they'd pay time and materials at a reasonable rate it
would be merely a waste of my time and their money. But, they keep
shouting at me and beating me about the head and shoulders, saying that
I'm uncharitable because I want to be paid or do it my way.


Oh, that'll be the religious bigots you hang with, I suspect?


They don't want to
take a little time off from their high-paying jobs to help, either.


OK, then it's definitely them, isn't it?

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
As usual Krueger poses as an audiophile but writes without either the
finesse or the insight that might make what he writes of any interest.
As for humour, clearly forget it.


It's a *syndrome* - a lifetime spent in 'audio' seems to turn a certain
percentage of the self-styled 'audio engineers' into serious malcontents
and makes them sour.

Sour about what that's relevant to modern audio?



Nothing and everything - just all over *sour*....

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Oh, that'll be the religious bigots you hang with, I suspect?

Would that be a sour or bitchy comment?

--
*If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Oh, that'll be the religious bigots you hang with, I suspect?

Would that be a sour or bitchy comment?


You tell me - you're the expert in these matters here, but fey gun wuz up me
bum for an answer I'd take 'sour' and say that your response was the
'bitchy' one...




--
*If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

But, �they keep shouting
at me and beating me about the head and shoulders, saying that I'm
uncharitable because I want to be paid or do it my way. They don't want to
take a little time off from their high-paying jobs to help, either.

As a professional musician I've had experience of two kinds of
engineer. The good engineers suggest solutions that fit the music and
what the musicians want to do.

The unemployable engineers want to do everything their way, annoy
musicians by telling them how their music should go or how they should
play their instruments, and then when mixing down tell the musicians
what the balance should be.

Needless to say, musicians end up shouting at such engineers, before
never working with them again. Such an engineer will continue to
believe he's right and the musicians are wrong and end up as a kind of
itinerant malcontent without regular work. Musicians have to like you
to give you repeat work, and obviously have to find you receptive,
creative and easy to get on with. Those are the basics. If you don't
respect the musicians you work with I suggest you put up telegraph
poles for a living.

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

In article
,
Andy Evans wrote:
But, #they keep shouting at me and beating me about the head and
shoulders, saying that I'm uncharitable because I want to be paid or
do it my way. They don't want to take a little time off from their
high-paying jobs to help, either.

As a professional musician I've had experience of two kinds of
engineer. The good engineers suggest solutions that fit the music and
what the musicians want to do.

The unemployable engineers want to do everything their way, annoy
musicians by telling them how their music should go or how they should
play their instruments, and then when mixing down tell the musicians
what the balance should be.

Most 'engineers' have 'their' way of doing things. Always learning, of
course. The trick is to choose one whose work you like. You make it sound
like they are merely an inconvenience to the musician, who is the expert
in all things, balance wise. If that is the case there's no reason to use
one at all. You can do your own mix.

Needless to say, musicians end up shouting at such engineers, before
never working with them again. Such an engineer will continue to
believe he's right and the musicians are wrong and end up as a kind of
itinerant malcontent without regular work. Musicians have to like you
to give you repeat work, and obviously have to find you receptive,
creative and easy to get on with. Those are the basics. If you don't
respect the musicians you work with I suggest you put up telegraph
poles for a living.

Think the same applies the other way round too. Mutual respect is a
requirement for any decent working arrangement.

--
*Rehab is for quitters.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

Most 'engineers' have 'their' way of doing things. Always learning, of
course. The trick is to choose one whose work you like.

Agree - there are some great engineers.

You make it sound like they are merely an inconvenience to the
musician, who is the expert in all things, balance wise. Plowman

I was describing a bad experience - substitute nightmare - with an
engineer who simply wouldn't mix down what I wanted on my own songs
played by my own band! If I don't know the balance I want on my own
material, who the hell does...... Would you tell Stravinsky his horns
ought to be louder?

Andy

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

Andy Evans wrote:

Most 'engineers' have 'their' way of doing things. Always learning, of
course. The trick is to choose one whose work you like.

Agree - there are some great engineers.

You make it sound like they are merely an inconvenience to the
musician, who is the expert in all things, balance wise. Plowman

I was describing a bad experience - substitute nightmare - with an
engineer who simply wouldn't mix down what I wanted on my own songs
played by my own band! If I don't know the balance I want on my own
material, who the hell does...... Would you tell Stravinsky his horns
ought to be louder?

The 'engineer' you were dealing with is clearly not a professional.

Graham

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

In article
,
Andy Evans wrote:
Most 'engineers' have 'their' way of doing things. Always learning, of
course. The trick is to choose one whose work you like.

Agree - there are some great engineers.

You make it sound like they are merely an inconvenience to the
musician, who is the expert in all things, balance wise. Plowman

I was describing a bad experience - substitute nightmare - with an
engineer who simply wouldn't mix down what I wanted on my own songs
played by my own band! If I don't know the balance I want on my own
material, who the hell does...... Would you tell Stravinsky his horns
ought to be louder?

I've often heard heated discussions between sound balancers and MDs etc
about what is suitable for TV use. Your case sounds weird, since I assume
it was for your own personal use or limited release - ie no record company
involved as for a purely commercial recording ? Think we all know what
can/does happen when they are. ;-)

--
*A cubicle is just a padded cell without a door.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
It's a *syndrome* - a lifetime spent in 'audio' seems to turn a certain
percentage of the self-styled 'audio engineers' into serious
malcontents
and makes them sour. We seen enough of them here, have we not?

It's quite common when pros have to deal with untalented amateurs in any
field. Especially those who try and re-invent the wheel.

Unfortunately, I've got a few who not only want me to re-invent the
wheel, but they want me to do all of their dirty work, and according
their botched-up plan. If they'd pay time and materials at a reasonable
rate it would be merely a waste of my time and their money. But, they
keep shouting at me and beating me about the head and shoulders, saying
that I'm uncharitable because I want to be paid or do it my way.

Oh, that'll be the religious bigots you hang with, I suspect?

They don't want to
take a little time off from their high-paying jobs to help, either.

OK, then it's definitely them, isn't it?

unh huh.

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
As usual Krueger poses as an audiophile but writes without either the
finesse or the insight that might make what he writes of any interest.
As for humour, clearly forget it.


It's a *syndrome* - a lifetime spent in 'audio' seems to turn a certain
percentage of the self-styled 'audio engineers' into serious malcontents
and makes them sour.

Sour about what that's relevant to modern audio?

Nothing and everything - just all over *sour*....

As if all this crying and whining about your imaginings about the poor sound
quality of digital and SS isn't sour. :-(

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
As usual Krueger poses as an audiophile but writes without either the
finesse or the insight that might make what he writes of any interest.
As for humour, clearly forget it.


It's a *syndrome* - a lifetime spent in 'audio' seems to turn a certain
percentage of the self-styled 'audio engineers' into serious
malcontents and makes them sour.

Sour about what that's relevant to modern audio?

Nothing and everything - just all over *sour*....

As if all this crying and whining about your imaginings about the poor
sound quality of digital and SS isn't sour. :-(


That's a typical example of your own sour view - I don't cry and whine, I
merely have a preference that sticks in your craw!

FYI, I have just this minute finished listening to a couple of records on a
Pioneer SS amp and 'ordinary' speakers and thought how nice it was *tonally*
but impossible to ignore the planar quality (lack of depth) of the sound;
which is exactly what I thought of the excellent soundtrack to the movie
Ping Pong we watched last night on a Sony AV amp and Ruark Paladins - good
music with good detail and tone but no depth whatsoever.

You keep doing your best to blacken my name with your sour remarks Arny, but
valves, vinyl and horns still sound better to me and....

....the male voices on the (DAB Classic FM) radio still sound *quacky* on the
SS amp and B&W speakers - so it ain't all my Fidelios! :-)

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
As usual Krueger poses as an audiophile but writes without either the
finesse or the insight that might make what he writes of any
interest.
As for humour, clearly forget it.


It's a *syndrome* - a lifetime spent in 'audio' seems to turn a
certain percentage of the self-styled 'audio engineers' into serious
malcontents and makes them sour.

Sour about what that's relevant to modern audio?

Nothing and everything - just all over *sour*....

As if all this crying and whining about your imaginings about the poor
sound quality of digital and SS isn't sour. :-(

That's a typical example of your own sour view - I don't cry and whine, I
merely have a preference that sticks in your craw!

No, the worst insult I can think of for a good audio system is that it makes
everything sound like it was played off vinyl through tubed gear.

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

In article , Keith G
scribeth thus

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
As usual Krueger poses as an audiophile but writes without either the
finesse or the insight that might make what he writes of any interest.
As for humour, clearly forget it.


It's a *syndrome* - a lifetime spent in 'audio' seems to turn a certain
percentage of the self-styled 'audio engineers' into serious
malcontents and makes them sour.

Sour about what that's relevant to modern audio?

Nothing and everything - just all over *sour*....

As if all this crying and whining about your imaginings about the poor
sound quality of digital and SS isn't sour. :-(


That's a typical example of your own sour view - I don't cry and whine, I
merely have a preference that sticks in your craw!

FYI, I have just this minute finished listening to a couple of records on a
Pioneer SS amp and 'ordinary' speakers and thought how nice it was *tonally*
but impossible to ignore the planar quality (lack of depth) of the sound;
which is exactly what I thought of the excellent soundtrack to the movie
Ping Pong we watched last night on a Sony AV amp and Ruark Paladins - good
music with good detail and tone but no depth whatsoever.

You keep doing your best to blacken my name with your sour remarks Arny, but
valves, vinyl and horns still sound better to me and....

...the male voices on the (DAB Classic FM) radio still sound *quacky* on the
SS amp and B&W speakers - so it ain't all my Fidelios! :-)


Classic 'eff emm' isnt the speech source to make any subjective
judgements from, its processed to bu**ery!...
--
Tony Sayer

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

I've often heard heated discussions between sound balancers and MDs
etc
about what is suitable for TV use. Your case sounds weird, since I
assume
it was for your own personal use or limited release - ie no record
company
involved as for a purely commercial recording ?

Yes, exactly right

Think we all know what
can/does happen when they are. ;-)

Hmmmmmmmm

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

In article
,
Andy Evans wrote:
I've often heard heated discussions between sound balancers and MDs
etc about what is suitable for TV use. Your case sounds weird, since I
assume it was for your own personal use or limited release - ie no
record company involved as for a purely commercial recording ?

Yes, exactly right

Can I then ask how you ended up with this recalcitrant engineer?

Think we all know what
can/does happen when they are. ;-)

Hmmmmmmmm

I was of course referring to pop record mastering.

--
*Isn't it a bit unnerving that doctors call what they do "practice?"

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

Andy Evans wrote (in HTML or sumit whatever that I can't
cope with)

As a professional musician I've had experience of two kinds
of
engineer. The good engineers suggest solutions that fit the
music and
what the musicians want to do.

The unemployable engineers want to do everything their way,
annoy
musicians by telling them how their music should go or how
they should
play their instruments, and then when mixing down tell the
musicians
what the balance should be.

Needless to say, musicians end up shouting at such
engineers, before
never working with them again. Such an engineer will
continue to
believe he's right and the musicians are wrong and end up as
a kind of
itinerant malcontent without regular work. Musicians have to
like you
to give you repeat work, and obviously have to find you
receptive,
creative and easy to get on with. Those are the basics. If
you don't
respect the musicians you work with I suggest you put up
telegraph
poles for a living.

************************************************** ******
Could equally be a caricature the relationship between the
recalcitrant project engineer and the architect, or
production engineer and product designer...any number of
similar contexts. Or between design and marketing or
accounting. Anywhere social reality impinges on engineering
principle. First comes the malcontent, then comes the
engineer who finds an excuse for not fitting in, maybe.
Malcontents are drawn to engineering like paedophiles are
attracted to teaching.

Some confusion also maybe between the roles of producer and
sound engineer. Did you see that TV doc about Phil Spector?
IIRC the guy who arranged the orchestral instruments said he
"played the studio like a musical instrument". In that kind
of environment, musicians can be the recalcitrant ones, who
don't understand what sells, or what will survive the
recording and playback process unscathed.

I guess the best music arises when these tensions drive the
process forwards through continuing dialogue. Some people
can't handle that kind of thing and they get precious.

I liked the quote from John Lennon when Spector shot a gun
in the studio: "If you're going to shoot me Phil, shoot me,
but don't **** with my ears."

Ian


"" wrote in
message
...
But, ?they keep shouting
at me and beating me about the head and shoulders, saying
that I'm
uncharitable because I want to be paid or do it my way.
They don't want to
take a little time off from their high-paying jobs to
help, either.

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote



As if all this crying and whining about your imaginings about the poor
sound quality of digital and SS isn't sour. :-(

That's a typical example of your own sour view - I don't cry and whine, I
merely have a preference that sticks in your craw!

No, the worst insult I can think of for a good audio system is that it
makes everything sound like it was played off vinyl through tubed gear.



Hey, Arny quit mithering for a few moments - meet my mate Shiny Nigel* with
his fingers on my knob, earlier this evening:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/myhifi/L1010281.JPG


....switching between the 2A3SET/Fidelio and Pioneer SA510/B&W2003 setups you
can see in the pic.

My kit is so damn bad he's round just about every Tuesday night to have a
play with it!

(Know what I mean? ;-)



*Not as shiny as he used to be...

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
scribeth thus



...the male voices on the (DAB Classic FM) radio still sound *quacky* on
the
SS amp and B&W speakers - so it ain't all my Fidelios! :-)


Classic 'eff emm' isnt the speech source to make any subjective
judgements from, its processed to bu**ery!...



We listened to 'The Jazz' on DAB for a while earlier on (first time ever) -
it sounded exactly the same on the valves/horns as it did on the SS/B&Ws!!

Tell ya summat - the *old* view that the source was more important than the
speakers isn't as daft as a lot of people nowadays think it is!

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
scribeth thus



...the male voices on the (DAB Classic FM) radio still sound *quacky* on
the
SS amp and B&W speakers - so it ain't all my Fidelios! :-)


Classic 'eff emm' isnt the speech source to make any subjective
judgements from, its processed to bu**ery!...



We listened to 'The Jazz' on DAB for a while earlier on (first time
ever) - it sounded exactly the same on the valves/horns as it did on the
SS/B&Ws!!

Tell ya summat - the *old* view that the source was more important than
the speakers isn't as daft as a lot of people nowadays think it is!


PS. According to SN earlier tonight, the *Robber Baron* shop we discussed is
getting aerial work all the time and uses Aerials & Satellites for all of
it!!

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

In article , Keith G
scribeth thus

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
scribeth thus



...the male voices on the (DAB Classic FM) radio still sound *quacky* on
the
SS amp and B&W speakers - so it ain't all my Fidelios! :-)


Classic 'eff emm' isnt the speech source to make any subjective
judgements from, its processed to bu**ery!...



We listened to 'The Jazz' on DAB for a while earlier on (first time ever) -
it sounded exactly the same on the valves/horns as it did on the SS/B&Ws!!


Now thats where digital can give Radio a bad name!..

Still I suppose its now in Stereo albeit @128 K MP2 !..

21st Radio eh?..


Tell ya summat - the *old* view that the source was more important than the
speakers isn't as daft as a lot of people nowadays think it is!



--
Tony Sayer

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
No, the worst insult I can think of for a good audio system is that it
makes everything sound like it was played off vinyl through tubed gear.



Hey, Arny quit mithering for a few moments - meet my mate Shiny Nigel*
with his fingers on my knob, earlier this evening:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/myhifi/L1010281.JPG


...switching between the 2A3SET/Fidelio and Pioneer SA510/B&W2003 setups
you can see in the pic.

My kit is so damn bad he's round just about every Tuesday night to have
a play with it!

Simply proves you're not the only one with defective hearing - but we knew
that anyway.

--
*Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
scribeth thus


We listened to 'The Jazz' on DAB for a while earlier on (first time
ever) -
it sounded exactly the same on the valves/horns as it did on the SS/B&Ws!!


Now thats where digital can give Radio a bad name!..

Still I suppose its now in Stereo albeit @128 K MP2 !..

21st Radio eh?..



I think you'll find the word 'century' lying on your desk somewhere....

Just now they played 'Sailing By' (Binge) on Classic Film Music (DAB) on my
SS/B&W setup and I didn't even recognise it for a few moments!

I'm afraid 'radio' has gone the way of all things 'technical' these days -
the spec looks dead clever on paper, but it's actually ****e in real life!

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
'Rock and roll' has a lot more energy, life and vibrancy than 'classical'
ever will.

Energy - Shostakovich, Liszt, Vivaldi
Life - what classical music doesn't have life
Vibrancy - Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev, Bizet, Verdi, Berlioz etc.


Besides, don't you tire of hearing a zillion mildly different
performances of the same old music that's been going around for
centuries ?

I tire of hearing a zillion different girl bands singing "baby baby"
and a zillion rock bands with fuzz guitar, loud drums and lyrics that
could be written by robots.

When was the last decent symphony written ? 50 years ago ?

Symphony No. 15 in A major (Opus 141), Dmitri Shostakovich's last, was
written in a little over a month during the summer of 1971 in Repino


Graham. Can you name name say 5% of the published
symphonic composers from Mozart to the present day?
There are more symphonic works published/recorded than one
could listen to in a lifetime taking one per day, with a day off on
Sundays. Even if at the age of 100 your hearing is good, and ear
trumpet polished, you will still have a lot of material to which to
listen.

Bin there? Done that?
I don't think so:-)
Best regards
Iain

What a sad excuse for a group this is...
 

--
Iain
Aural perception is a skill that requires study and careful development over
along period of time. Few have it as a natural gift.
"borosteve" wrote in message
...
On 28 Dec, 14:55, Laurence Payne NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com wrote:
On Fri, 28 Dec 2007 06:42:25 -0800 (PST), Andy Evans

wrote:
I think the difficulty here is that "listeners" is a variable and so
is "test conditions". The test conditions would be not too difficult
to replicate, but the listeners could not be easily replicated, nor
could their emotional/health states at time of testing, even if they
were.

I would hazard a guess that the quality, aural acuity and perceptual
sensitivity of a listening panel could not be easily standardised, and
since the whole experiment depends on their aural perception, I'd
forsee this as a logistical problem.

Why would you need to? The only thing we're trying to establish is
whether one length of wire sounds different to another. To these
listeners, here, today. We find that they don't. So we try another
set, another place another time. They can't tell any difference
either. Anyone who thinks he can has an easy million dollars waiting
to be collected. It's been waiting a long time :-)

Is it cash or a cheque?
Borosteve.

It is paid in solid gold - (wire)
Iain

See PS about the um-chanters
 

Iain Churches wrote:
"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
'Rock and roll' has a lot more energy, life and vibrancy than 'classical'
ever will.

Energy - Shostakovich, Liszt, Vivaldi
Life - what classical music doesn't have life
Vibrancy - Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev, Bizet, Verdi, Berlioz etc.


Besides, don't you tire of hearing a zillion mildly different
performances of the same old music that's been going around for
centuries ?

I tire of hearing a zillion different girl bands singing "baby baby"
and a zillion rock bands with fuzz guitar, loud drums and lyrics that
could be written by robots.

When was the last decent symphony written ? 50 years ago ?

Symphony No. 15 in A major (Opus 141), Dmitri Shostakovich's last, was
written in a little over a month during the summer of 1971 in Repino


Graham. Can you name name say 5% of the published
symphonic composers from Mozart to the present day?

Considering how many there are, naming one in twenty may be too tough
a test except for someone with a copy of Grove on his bathroom
bookshelf. But if Poopie can offhand name ten 20th century composers
who published symphonies, a much easier and therefore fairer task
(especially since so many of the possibilities are British and/or
wrote or had their music adapted for films, presumably Poopie's
highest form of culture), then we could throw him a few brownie points
on the respect scale.

There are more symphonic works published/recorded than one
could listen to in a lifetime taking one per day, with a day off on
Sundays. Even if at the age of 100 your hearing is good, and ear
trumpet polished, you will still have a lot of material to which to
listen.

My Melbourne mate Peter Allen once quoted another Australian
audiophile as saying, "Restraint is playing any favourite disc only
once per month." A single disc -- not symphonic music but a capella
vocals or other chamber music -- can keep me intrigued for a day,
playing it over and over.

Bin there? Done that?
I don't think so:-)

Of course he hasn't!

Best regards
Iain

Andre Jute
Eminently fair and reasonable

PS I have a photograph here that one of my spies sent me. In the row
of shaven-headed, saffron-robed um-chanters between the gilded spires
of Prathai Doi Suthep, which one are you, Iain? I used to recognize
you by your hair, and that tan looks awfully like it came out of TV
talent makeup kit that your mate Plowie obtained for you...

See PS about the um-chanters
 

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...

Considering how many there are, naming one in twenty may be too tough
a test except for someone with a copy of Grove on his bathroom
bookshelf.

OK. If one need to refer to a copy of Grove, then one needs
to be a honest and admit to the composers whose works
(and maybe even names) are unfamiliar:-)


My Melbourne mate Peter Allen once quoted another Australian
audiophile as saying, "Restraint is playing any favourite disc only
once per month." A single disc -- not symphonic music but a capella
vocals or other chamber music -- can keep me intrigued for a day,
playing it over and over.

That's a good point, and illustrates well the difference in "depth"
between pop and classical music. For reasons that I won't go into
here, I include some jazz in the classical repertoire.

When I was a kid, and my father berated me for listening to
"that shallow pop rubbish" (Lonnie Donnegan, Clif Richard, Elvis,
etc etc) I made up my mind that when I became an old fogey,
I would never hold such a narrow attitude. So I make it my
business to listen to popular chart material. Music is constantly
evolving, and one must make an effort not to get "stuck in the
groove" (or should that me sample!)

I find that having played such a track once, or maybe twice,
I have probably assimilated all it has to offer - which is probably
why such music has such a short life. It is the musical equivalent
of fast food.

In contrast, I can listen to a Shostakovich quartet
over and over in a single day, and at each playing find
some new nuance or tiny gem.

PS I have a photograph here that one of my spies sent me. In the row
of shaven-headed, saffron-robed um-chanters between the gilded spires
of Prathai Doi Suthep, which one are you, Iain? I used to recognize
you by your hair, and that tan looks awfully like it came out of TV
talent makeup kit that your mate Plowie obtained for you...

OK. Fair cop, guv. It's me!
My hair is my own, but one has to make small sacrifices, and it
will grow back. And who knows, maybe I will get into the cast
of the remake of The King And I.

Look at the pic (amazing what one can see from a satelite!)
I am on the left, carrying a Burmese Army trekking stick
(the one designed by the legendary Sir Jeffrey Hillpig-Smythe)
I find the stick useful for persuading to generosity
tight-fisted tourists otherwise unwilling to put a coin or two into
the monks' bowl. The new design of teak bowl will have a slot
in the bottom to accomodate Visa/MasterCard/American Express.
You cannot see it in the picture, but I have a cord around my
right wrist put there by the Buddhist abbott at Chiang Rai, to
bring me everlasting fullfilment. It cost me 20 Euros.

Iain

See PS about the um-chanters
 

In article i, Iain
Churches scribeth thus
"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...

Considering how many there are, naming one in twenty may be too tough
a test except for someone with a copy of Grove on his bathroom
bookshelf.

OK. If one need to refer to a copy of Grove, then one needs
to be a honest and admit to the composers whose works
(and maybe even names) are unfamiliar:-)


My Melbourne mate Peter Allen once quoted another Australian
audiophile as saying, "Restraint is playing any favourite disc only
once per month." A single disc -- not symphonic music but a capella
vocals or other chamber music -- can keep me intrigued for a day,
playing it over and over.

That's a good point, and illustrates well the difference in "depth"
between pop and classical music. For reasons that I won't go into
here, I include some jazz in the classical repertoire.

When I was a kid, and my father berated me for listening to
"that shallow pop rubbish" (Lonnie Donnegan, Clif Richard, Elvis,
etc etc) I made up my mind that when I became an old fogey,
I would never hold such a narrow attitude.

Same here.. heard it all before;!..

So I make it my
business to listen to popular chart material. Music is constantly
evolving, and one must make an effort not to get "stuck in the
groove" (or should that me sample!)

I find that having played such a track once, or maybe twice,
I have probably assimilated all it has to offer - which is probably
why such music has such a short life. It is the musical equivalent
of fast food.

In contrast, I can listen to a Shostakovich quartet
over and over in a single day, and at each playing find
some new nuance or tiny gem.

I think Ian.. Thats called growing up in the best possible way;)...
--
Tony Sayer

See PS about the um-chanters
 

In article
,
Andre Jute wrote:
PS I have a photograph here that one of my spies sent me. In the row
of shaven-headed, saffron-robed um-chanters between the gilded spires
of Prathai Doi Suthep, which one are you, Iain? I used to recognize
you by your hair, and that tan looks awfully like it came out of TV
talent makeup kit that your mate Plowie obtained for you...

The rumour that I ever worked on a programme starring Des O'Connor will be
met by a response from my legal team.

--
*Go the extra mile. It makes your boss look like an incompetent slacker *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

See PS about the um-chanters
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

The rumour that I ever worked on a programme starring Des O'Connor will be
met by a response from my legal team.


It wouldn't if you were getting repeat fees:-)

Iain

See PS about the um-chanters
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The rumour that I ever worked on a programme starring Des O'Connor
will be met by a response from my legal team.

What, "We'll settle out of court."?


--
Wally
www.wally.myby.co.uk
Call me a saint, call me a sinner - just don't call me... late for
dinner.

See PS about the um-chanters
 

On Jan 10, 7:54*am, "Iain Churches" wrote:
"Andre Jute" wrote in message

...



Considering how many there are, naming one in twenty may be too tough
a test except for someone with a copy of Grove on his bathroom
bookshelf.

OK. If one need to refer to a copy of Grove, then one needs
to be a honest and admit to the composers whose works
(and maybe even names) are unfamiliar:-)

No, a person who has to refer to Grove in an effort to find out the
names of composers -- doesn't know what Grove is. I was referring to
the kind of person who actually reads Grove regularly. (I don't, but
there was a time in my teens when I looked up everything, and checked
everything anyone told me, and worked the subject until I knew more
than anyone I was likely to meet -- I must have been an insufferable
little ******* but of course it made me infallible in my middle years.
I read Fowler in the facsimile original edition -- many authors and
editors find the brothers Fowler soothing and inspiring, like a more
grammatical mantra.) I think, Iain, that you'd better hire Andy Evans
and me to set these questions; psychologists know things about
stupidity that recording engineers cannot even dream of...

I might add that the (delicious) unfairness of your original question
to Poopie Stevenson is well demonstrated by the fact that, after
writing about music for 47 years, I can easily point to composers I
discovered only when they were already well-performed, especially
among the living or the recently alive; it is one of my regrets that I
never interviewed Schnittke, for instance. But being ignorant doesn't
embarrass me in the least; I love the thrill of discovery too much! (I
also while I was still in my teens discovered that the manic
knowingness of the trendies is like Chinese food, only fleetingly
satisfying, and my painting teacher, bless his soul, pointed out that
a creator like me would make his own trends if he wasn't distracted by
pretending to be knowledgeable; he took me to see Tretchikoff, the
trendy's darling, who told me he feared he would be remembered only
for "that accursed weeping rose on all the calendars" -- this was
before the establishment condemned him as kitsch for being much more
popular than Picasso and Rothko, neither of whom in my opinion had a
fraction of his talent.)

My Melbourne mate Peter Allen once quoted another Australian
audiophile as saying, "Restraint is playing any favourite disc only
once per month." A single disc -- not symphonic music but a capella
vocals or other chamber music -- can keep me intrigued for a day,
playing it over and over.

That's a good point, and illustrates well the difference in "depth"
between pop and classical music. *For reasons that I won't go into
here, I include some jazz in the classical repertoire.

I make it my
business to listen to popular chart material.

You have our sympathy.

PS I have a photograph here that one of my spies sent me. In the row
of shaven-headed, saffron-robed um-chanters between the gilded spires
of Prathai Doi Suthep, which one are you, Iain? I used to recognize
you by your hair, and that tan looks awfully like it came out of TV
talent makeup kit that your mate Plowie obtained for you...

OK. Fair cop, guv. It's me!
My hair is my own, but one has to make small sacrifices, and it
will grow back. And who knows, maybe I will get into the cast
of the remake of The King And I.

Look at the pic (amazing what one can see from a satelite!)
I am on the left, carrying a Burmese Army trekking stick
(the one designed by the legendary Sir Jeffrey Hillpig-Smythe)
*I find the stick useful for persuading to generosity
tight-fisted tourists otherwise unwilling to put a coin or two into
the monks' bowl. *The new design of teak bowl will have a slot
in the bottom to accomodate Visa/MasterCard/American Express.
You cannot see it in the picture, but I have a cord around my
right wrist put there by the Buddhist abbott at Chiang Rai, to
bring me everlasting fullfilment. It cost me 20 Euros.

Iain

Thanks for that! Years I start with laughter always go better.

Andre Jute
LOL

See PS about the um-chanters
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Andre Jute wrote:
and that tan looks awfully like it came out of TV
talent makeup kit that your mate Plowie obtained for you...

The rumour that I ever worked on a programme starring Des O'Connor will be
met by a response from my legal team.

--
*Go the extra mile. It makes your boss look like an incompetent slacker *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Holy moly, I don't want to libel a guy who can build a flat roof that
is waterproof in Britain. He could come calling and insist on showing
me, on me, how he wields his chainsaw. I take it all back!

Andre Jute
Whew, what a narrow escape!

See PS about the um-chanters
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Andre Jute wrote:
PS I have a photograph here that one of my spies sent me. In the row
of shaven-headed, saffron-robed um-chanters between the gilded spires
of Prathai Doi Suthep, which one are you, Iain? I used to recognize
you by your hair, and that tan looks awfully like it came out of TV
talent makeup kit that your mate Plowie obtained for you...

The rumour that I ever worked on a programme starring Des O'Connor will be
met by a response from my legal team.


Those shows are probably still being broadcast somewhere,
you should ask about your repeat fees, Dave:-)

A pal of mine in HK told me that on Chistmas Day
(just a couple of weeks ago:-) he enjoyed watching the
Val Doonican Christmas Show:-)

Regards to all
Iain

Two types of music
 

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...
On Jan 10, 7:54 am, "Iain Churches" wrote:
"Andre Jute" wrote in message


PS I have a photograph here that one of my spies sent me. In the row
of shaven-headed, saffron-robed um-chanters between the gilded spires
of Prathai Doi Suthep, which one are you, Iain? I used to recognize
you by your hair, and that tan looks awfully like it came out of TV
talent makeup kit that your mate Plowie obtained for you...

OK. Fair cop, guv. It's me!
My hair is my own, but one has to make small sacrifices, and it
will grow back. And who knows, maybe I will get into the cast
of the remake of The King And I.

Look at the pic (amazing what one can see from a satelite!)
I am on the left, carrying a Burmese Army trekking stick
(the one designed by the legendary Sir Jeffrey Hillpig-Smythe)
I find the stick useful for persuading to generosity
tight-fisted tourists otherwise unwilling to put a coin or two into
the monks' bowl. The new design of teak bowl will have a slot
in the bottom to accomodate Visa/MasterCard/American Express.
You cannot see it in the picture, but I have a cord around my
right wrist put there by the Buddhist abbott at Chiang Rai, to
bring me everlasting fullfilment. It cost me 20 Euros.


Thanks for that! Years I start with laughter always go better.

I am not, generally speaking superstitious - although I do carefully
pick the first piece of music to be played through a newly built
valve amp. If it going to someone who does not listen to much
classical music, I baptise the amp with a Jethro Tull Song
"Slow Marching Band" which includes the lyric "just hum along
and keep on going" !

But I do agree that starting a New Year with laughter does seem
to set one on the right track. I chuckled a couple of days ago when
a colleague sent me an e-mail as follows:

During a recent concert tour of a Scandinavian student
orchestra, an American lady came backstage to the
production office after a concert in Vienna at which
Charles Ives' 1st Symphony had been performed, to
express her pleasure at finding a work by an American
composer being played at a concert in a city at the heart
of European classical music.

The orchestral manager thanked her for her compliment,
and offered her two complimentary tickets for the concert
on the Friday evening which included another fine work
by an American composer, Samuel Barber's
"Adagio for Strings Op.11"

The lady was delighted, but said with a wicked smile that
one ticket would suffice, as this kind of music was not really
to her husband's taste. He liked only two types of music:
"country", and "western".

Iain

Two types of music
 

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...
On Jan 10, 7:54 am, "Iain Churches" wrote:
"Andre Jute" wrote in message


PS I have a photograph here that one of my spies sent me. In the row
of shaven-headed, saffron-robed um-chanters between the gilded spires
of Prathai Doi Suthep, which one are you, Iain? I used to recognize
you by your hair, and that tan looks awfully like it came out of TV
talent makeup kit that your mate Plowie obtained for you...

OK. Fair cop, guv. It's me!
My hair is my own, but one has to make small sacrifices, and it
will grow back. And who knows, maybe I will get into the cast
of the remake of The King And I.

Look at the pic (amazing what one can see from a satelite!)
I am on the left, carrying a Burmese Army trekking stick
(the one designed by the legendary Sir Jeffrey Hillpig-Smythe)
I find the stick useful for persuading to generosity
tight-fisted tourists otherwise unwilling to put a coin or two into
the monks' bowl. The new design of teak bowl will have a slot
in the bottom to accomodate Visa/MasterCard/American Express.
You cannot see it in the picture, but I have a cord around my
right wrist put there by the Buddhist abbott at Chiang Rai, to
bring me everlasting fullfilment. It cost me 20 Euros.


Thanks for that! Years I start with laughter always go better.

I am not, generally speaking superstitious - although I do carefully
pick the first piece of music to be played through a newly built
valve amp. If it going to someone who does not listen to much
classical music, I baptise the amp with a Jethro Tull Song
"Slow Marching Band" which includes the line "...just hum along
and keep on going" !

But I do agree that starting a New Year with laughter does seem
to set one on the right track. I chuckled a couple of days ago when
a colleague sent me an e-mail as follows:

During a recent concert tour of a Scandinavian student
orchestra, an American lady came backstage to the
production office after a concert in Vienna at which
Charles Ives' 1st Symphony had been performed, to
express her pleasure at finding a work by an American
composer being played at a concert in a city at the heart
of European classical music.

The orchestral manager thanked her for her kind praise,
and offered her two complimentary tickets for the concert
on the Friday evening which included another fine work
by an American composer, Samuel Barber's
"Adagio for Strings Op.11"

The lady was delighted, but said with a wicked smile that
one ticket would suffice, as this kind of music was not really
to her husband's taste. He liked only two types of music:
"country", and "western".

Iain

Two types of music
 

On Jan 11, 7:04*am, "Iain Churches" wrote:

*He liked only two types of music:
"country", and "western".

Damned right too. There's a lot of country that ain't west of
anywhere, and cowboy songs always sounded decidedly poof to me,
whereas, now, truckers with hairy forearms and jailhouse tattoos,
coming from say the Carolinas, which is surely country but ain't
western to anybody except the fishes, with whom you will sleep if you
complain that this sentence runs on too long, that's a lot of country
that ain't west of anywhere, and cowboy songs always sounded decidedly
poof to me, whereas, now, truckers with hairy forearms and jailhouse
tattoos, coming from say the Carolinas, which is surely country but
ain't western to anybody except the fishes, with whom you will sleep
if you complain that this sentence runs on too long, that's a lot of
country that ain't west of anywhere, and cowboy songs always sounded
decidedly poof to me, whereas, now, truckers with hairy forearms and
jailhouse tattoos, coming from say the Carolinas, which is surely
country but ain't western to anybody except the fishes, with whom you
will sleep if you complain that this sentence runs on too long, that's
a lot of country -- hullo? Anyone still here?

That's what I think of popular music.

Andre Jute
Primarius, uh, just for you, Laurence, I mean primus inter pares

See PS about the um-chanters
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
The rumour that I ever worked on a programme starring Des O'Connor
will be met by a response from my legal team.


Those shows are probably still being broadcast somewhere,

They are indeed. In the UK on one of the minority channels. Although given
most of the guests were promoting a book or record etc they might seem a
bit strange...

you should ask about your repeat fees, Dave:-)

If only. Even those who once got repeats sometimes don't these days. Hence
the writer's strike in the US.

A pal of mine in HK told me that on Chistmas Day
(just a couple of weeks ago:-) he enjoyed watching the
Val Doonican Christmas Show:-)

A real gentleman. Takes me back 30 odd years to the TV Theatre in
Shepherd's Bush. And the days when there were several such progs made
every week.

--
*Some days we are the flies; some days we are the windscreen.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

See PS about the um-chanters
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

you should ask about your repeat fees, Dave:-)

If only. Even those who once got repeats sometimes don't these days. Hence
the writer's strike in the US.

So are you saying that technical staff are not included in the
sharing of the post-sales spoils? Is the payment a one-off,
irrespective of the magnitude of distribution or the number of
times the programme is shown?

Recording royalty contracts used to be "for LP and
compact cassette". Most companies added "and digital media"
without pressure. But, on may projects, you sign over your
rights to the production company for a flat flee. This applies
to artists also, and gives such labels a considerable marketing
advantage, as their costs are considerable less. Many
artists work for such labels just to "get their foot in the door"
in hope of establishing themselves. There are no contracts
royalties, or advances. They (the artists) make little or no money,
but get a calling card in the form of a CD which they can tote
round to other labels.

A pal of mine in HK told me that on Christmas Day
(just a couple of weeks ago:-) he enjoyed watching the
Val Doonican Christmas Show:-)

A real gentleman. Takes me back 30 odd years to the TV Theatre in
Shepherd's Bush. And the days when there were several such progs made
every week.

Yes indeed. What happened?

Iain

..

Two types of music
 

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...
On Jan 11, 7:04 am, "Iain Churches" wrote:

He liked only two types of music:
"country", and "western".

Damned right too. There's a lot of country that ain't west of
anywhere, and cowboy songs always sounded decidedly poof to me,
whereas, now, truckers with hairy forearms and jailhouse tattoos,
coming from say the Carolinas, which is surely country but ain't
western to anybody except the fishes, with whom you will sleep if you
complain that this sentence runs on too long, that's a lot of country
that ain't west of anywhere, and cowboy songs always sounded decidedly
poof to me, whereas, now, truckers with hairy forearms and jailhouse
tattoos, coming from say the Carolinas, which is surely country but
ain't western to anybody except the fishes, with whom you will sleep
if you complain that this sentence runs on too long, that's a lot of
country that ain't west of anywhere, and cowboy songs always sounded
decidedly poof to me, whereas, now, truckers with hairy forearms and
jailhouse tattoos, coming from say the Carolinas, which is surely
country but ain't western to anybody except the fishes, with whom you
will sleep if you complain that this sentence runs on too long, that's
a lot of country -- hullo? Anyone still here?

That's what I think of popular music.

I guess there is no chance of borrowing a drum machine
or a midi-sequencer from you, then? :-)

Iain