Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 18:07:03 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

No idea - all I know is CDs have virtually no 'soundstaging' at all,
compared with almost all vinyl...??

Really?

Do you think this is due to technical issues with the medium? What
happens when you dub one of your favourite vinyl recordings to
digital?

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Laurence Payne" NOSPAMlpayne1ATdsl.pipex.com wrote in message
...
On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 18:07:03 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

No idea - all I know is CDs have virtually no 'soundstaging' at all,
compared with almost all vinyl...??

Really?



Prepared to be proved wrong, as always - do you have any suggestions?



Do you think this is due to technical issues with the medium? What
happens when you dub one of your favourite vinyl recordings to
digital?


It becomes a CD, but the familiarity of the sound seems to make them sound
better than the 'straight CD' equivalent. (Probably in the mastering
differences?) I shall have to try it again and see - all I know is that
vinyl digitised onto the computer sounds pretty good, usually....

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Eeyore" wrote in
message

I can only imagine LPs being of interest to mostly
somewhat deaf people these days.

Agreed that it takes considerable ear damage for a sane person to perceive
that LPs categorically sound better than CDs.

I can see the nostalgia aspect to playing LPs, and I can see the situation
where people have musical performances that they prefer, but were never
adequately re-released on CD.

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"David Looser" wrote in
message
"Keith G" wrote in message
...


My only problem with CD is they don't hold my attention.
I can listen to them for sounds but, for some strange
reason, I don't take them seriously for music!

Because you have an emotional attachment to the *idea* of
vinyl, because you like the ritual of cleaning the disc,
watching it turn, lowering the stylus into it etc? Perhaps CDs are simply
too easy to play for your liking.
And it's not like the (far) superior soundstaging of
vinyl has anything to do with it,

How do you work that one out? Vinyl has a poor crosstalk
figure (typically around 25-30dB) whilst with CD the
crosstalk is as good as the producer of the recording
wants it to be. How does that create "(far) superior
soundstaging" for vinyl?

Typically, the channel separation of vinyl LPs has been compromised for the
sake of trackability.

Vinyl typically has both static and dynamic channel imbalance problems. You
can expect a CD player to have 80 dB separation, and nearly perfect
channel balance. In contrast even 20 dB channel separation with vinyl exists
only at middle frequencies, and the two channels can be counted on to not
have the same frequency response. Finally, as the cartrdige tracks warps and
eccentricities, additional dynamic channel balance errors are added.

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

On Fri, 04 Jan 2008 11:41:49 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

If you guys say so. I would say enormous numbers of people prefer LPs to
Cds. I would go as far as to say most people that I know do. Apart from on
this group I've never ever heard anyone say they prefer CD for sound
quality. Durability, lack of clicks, playing time and even simplicity but
never ever sound quality.

What the reason for this is I don't know. It could be a liking for
coloration or it could be that there is something wrong with the sound of
CD. Certainly from 1982 to 1987 my wife could only spend a few minutes
listening to CD before leaving the room, she thought CD was so awful until
we got the Meridian 207/8.

Yeah. But what about NOW, using a commodity CD player?

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote in
message

I can only imagine LPs being of interest to mostly
somewhat deaf people these days.

Agreed that it takes considerable ear damage for a sane person to
perceive that LPs categorically sound better than CDs.

I can see the nostalgia aspect to playing LPs, and I can see the
situation where people have musical performances that they prefer, but
were never adequately re-released on CD.

If you guys say so. I would say enormous numbers of people prefer LPs to
Cds.


Sure - the majority of people I know (who care about music) do....


I would go as far as to say most people that I know do. Apart from on
this group I've never ever heard anyone say they prefer CD for sound
quality. Durability, lack of clicks, playing time and even simplicity but
never ever sound quality.

What the reason for this is I don't know. It could be a liking for
coloration or it could be that there is something wrong with the sound of
CD. Certainly from 1982 to 1987 my wife could only spend a few minutes
listening to CD before leaving the room, she thought CD was so awful until
we got the Meridian 207/8.



Reference to your partner's preferences is (a priori) ruled out by the Vinyl
Shriekers I think you'll find, but let's not forget the far superior
'information carrying' capacity of CDs - the average LP lasts approximately
7 minutes per side; the average music CD lasts 3 days....

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...

If you guys say so. I would say enormous numbers of people prefer LPs to
Cds. I would go as far as to say most people that I know do. Apart from on
this group I've never ever heard anyone say they prefer CD for sound
quality. Durability, lack of clicks, playing time and even simplicity but
never ever sound quality.

What the reason for this is I don't know. It could be a liking for
coloration

I guess it must be.

or it could be that there is something wrong with the sound of
CD.

Sonically speaking CDs hardly exist, they don't really have a "sound". They
are simply a carrier of 2 channel 16-bit/44100 sample/sec uncompressed
digital audio.

Certainly from 1982 to 1987 my wife could only spend a few minutes
listening to CD before leaving the room, she thought CD was so awful until
we got the Meridian 207/8.

Individual CD players can have a "sound", particularly those early ones with
wholly analogue "brick-wall" filtering and only 1 D-A converter time-shared
between the two channels.

And as has been discussed here at length the mastering of CDs can often
leave a lot to be desired. But none of this is the fault of the CD.

David.

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

Bob Latham wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

I can see the nostalgia aspect to playing LPs, and I can see the
situation where people have musical performances that they prefer, but
were never adequately re-released on CD.

If you guys say so. I would say enormous numbers of people prefer LPs to
Cds. I would go as far as to say most people that I know do.

I know NO-ONE who thiks that !


Apart from on
this group I've never ever heard anyone say they prefer CD for sound
quality. Durability, lack of clicks, playing time and even simplicity but
never ever sound quality.

Since when were scratches not deleterious to audio quality ?

Things I recall about LPs that were total rubbish include surface noise and
absence of disc flatness that you could hear as kind of slow whoosh in the
background.

My kit was good enough that hum wasn't a problem but signal to noise ratio is
vastly inferior to CD. There is also NO WAY that an LP even played with the
very best gear will come remotely close to a CD's flat frequency response and
low distortion. Also, the sensitive unbaalanced phono preamp is particularly
vulnerable to demodulating things like passing taxi radios.

The short playing time is a pain too. And playing them wears them out
eventually.

Graham

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

Bob Latham wrote:

Certainly from 1982 to 1987 my wife could only spend a few minutes
listening to CD before leaving the room, she thought CD was so awful until
we got the Meridian 207/8.

Why are you judging CDs by 25 year old technology.

Would you play an LP with a steel needle ?

Graham

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

Keith G wrote:

"Bob Latham" wrote

If you guys say so. I would say enormous numbers of people prefer LPs to
Cds.

Sure - the majority of people I know (who care about music) do....

Are they all very old people like you ? Maybe their hearing loss is masking some
of the more obvious defects ?

Graham

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

Keith G wrote:

but let's not forget the far superior 'information carrying' capacity of CDs -
the average LP lasts approximately 7 minutes per side;

Uh ? More like 20 mins IIRC.


the average music CD lasts 3 days....

Anything that plays for 3 days ISN'T an audio *CD* ! An audio CD is limited to ~
50 mins.

Graham

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

David Looser wrote:

"Bob Latham" wrote

If you guys say so. I would say enormous numbers of people prefer LPs to
Cds. I would go as far as to say most people that I know do. Apart from on
this group I've never ever heard anyone say they prefer CD for sound
quality. Durability, lack of clicks, playing time and even simplicity but
never ever sound quality.

What the reason for this is I don't know. It could be a liking for
coloration

I guess it must be.

or it could be that there is something wrong with the sound of
CD.

Sonically speaking CDs hardly exist, they don't really have a "sound". They
are simply a carrier of 2 channel 16-bit/44100 sample/sec uncompressed
digital audio.

Certainly from 1982 to 1987 my wife could only spend a few minutes
listening to CD before leaving the room, she thought CD was so awful until
we got the Meridian 207/8.

Individual CD players can have a "sound", particularly those early ones with
wholly analogue "brick-wall" filtering and only 1 D-A converter time-shared
between the two channels.

And as has been discussed here at length the mastering of CDs can often
leave a lot to be desired. But none of this is the fault of the CD.

I agree with all you say.

I HAVE heard bad CD players such as the original Sony CDP-101. It souded 'harsh'
to me (one can speculate over what casued that) and I was convinced that
reverberation was being truncated (although that could have been the result of
flawed mastering).

As a result I didn't buy a CD player until ~ 1989. A Denon DCD-1710 which
sounded natural. I still have it. There seems no point in upgrading since it
works fine plus its build quality is the kind of thing one is never likely to
see again outside of esoteric hi-fi.

I also have a decent Panasonic DVD player. I honestly can't tell it apart from
the Denon.

Graham

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

In article , Eeyore rabbitsfriendsandrel
scribeth thus


Bob Latham wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

I can see the nostalgia aspect to playing LPs, and I can see the
situation where people have musical performances that they prefer, but
were never adequately re-released on CD.

If you guys say so. I would say enormous numbers of people prefer LPs to
Cds. I would go as far as to say most people that I know do.

I know NO-ONE who thiks that !


Apart from on
this group I've never ever heard anyone say they prefer CD for sound
quality. Durability, lack of clicks, playing time and even simplicity but
never ever sound quality.

Since when were scratches not deleterious to audio quality ?

Things I recall about LPs that were total rubbish include surface noise and
absence of disc flatness that you could hear as kind of slow whoosh in the
background.

My kit was good enough that hum wasn't a problem but signal to noise ratio is
vastly inferior to CD. There is also NO WAY that an LP even played with the
very best gear will come remotely close to a CD's flat frequency response and
low distortion.


Also, the sensitive unbaalanced phono preamp is particularly
vulnerable to demodulating things like passing taxi radios.

Seeing that there aren't anymore AM systems around thats quite
impressive;!...

--
Tony Sayer

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Bob Latham" wrote in message

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Eeyore" wrote
in
message

I can only imagine LPs being of interest to mostly
somewhat deaf people these days.

Agreed that it takes considerable ear damage for a sane
person to perceive that LPs categorically sound better
than CDs.

I can see the nostalgia aspect to playing LPs, and I can
see the situation where people have musical performances
that they prefer, but were never adequately re-released
on CD.

If you guys say so. I would say enormous numbers of
people prefer LPs to Cds.

Of course, you're one of them.

But what does enormous mean?

A tiny fraction of all people is still an enourmous number of people.

And why does this allegedly enourmous number of people have the preferences
that they do?

I would go as far as to say
most people that I know do.

Well, that speaks only to your circle of acquaintances.

Apart from on this group I've
never ever heard anyone say they prefer CD for sound
quality.

Apart from a few mostly anonymous internet trolls, I've never heard anyone
say that they prefer the LP for sound quality.

For audio, it is a digital world.

Durability, lack of clicks, playing time and
even simplicity but never ever sound quality.

Well, that speaks only to your circle of acquaintances.

What the reason for this is I don't know.

Something about not getting out much.

It could be a
liking for coloration or it could be that there is
something wrong with the sound of CD.

There is no chance that there is anything wrong with the sound of the CD
format since it is sonically transparent. If you don't like the way that the
CD format reproduces a certain sound that has been turned into an electrical
signal, then you don't like the sound of that electrical signal.

Certainly from 1982
to 1987 my wife could only spend a few minutes listening
to CD before leaving the room, she thought CD was so
awful until we got the Meridian 207/8.

Speaks to your wife's willingness to pander to your minority preferences and
phobias.

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Eeyore" wrote in
message
Keith G wrote:

but let's not forget the far superior 'information
carrying' capacity of CDs - the average LP lasts
approximately 7 minutes per side;

Uh ? More like 20 mins IIRC.

Agreed. Except that LPs are generally so bad that it is questionable
whether you can call the corrupted mess that can be recovered from them
*music*.

the average music CD lasts 3 days....

my MP3 CDs last about 8 hours.

Anything that plays for 3 days ISN'T an audio *CD* ! An
audio CD is limited to ~ 50 mins.

Well, 72 or 80.

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

Eeyore wrote:

I HAVE heard bad CD players such as the original Sony CDP-101. It souded 'harsh'
to me (one can speculate over what casued that) and I was convinced that
reverberation was being truncated (although that could have been the result of
flawed mastering).

Me too. I never discovered whether it was my neighbour's CDP-101, the
'Realistic'
amp and speakers or the 1980's music but something gave me a headache.
Perhaps he's still got it in the junk box; it would be interesting to
find out how bad it was.

--
Eiron.

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

tony sayer wrote:

Eeyore scribeth thus
Bob Latham wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:

I can see the nostalgia aspect to playing LPs, and I can see the
situation where people have musical performances that they prefer, but
were never adequately re-released on CD.

If you guys say so. I would say enormous numbers of people prefer LPs to
Cds. I would go as far as to say most people that I know do.

I know NO-ONE who thiks that !


Apart from on
this group I've never ever heard anyone say they prefer CD for sound
quality. Durability, lack of clicks, playing time and even simplicity but
never ever sound quality.

Since when were scratches not deleterious to audio quality ?

Things I recall about LPs that were total rubbish include surface noise and
absence of disc flatness that you could hear as kind of slow whoosh in the
background.

My kit was good enough that hum wasn't a problem but signal to noise ratio is
vastly inferior to CD. There is also NO WAY that an LP even played with the
very best gear will come remotely close to a CD's flat frequency response and
low distortion.

Also, the sensitive unbaalanced phono preamp is particularly
vulnerable to demodulating things like passing taxi radios.

Seeing that there aren't anymore AM systems around thats quite
impressive;!...

Well, I haven't used it in about 20 years so I wouldn't know. CD players don't
suffer this.

Graham

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

Arny Krueger wrote:

There is no chance that there is anything wrong with the sound of the CD
format since it is sonically transparent.

No help to those who actively seek colouration though. Same as valve amps. The
two ( liking valves and LPs) seem to go hand-in-hand which strongly suggests to
me that those people like a strongly coloured sound.

Graham

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Eeyore" wrote

Keith G wrote:

but let's not forget the far superior 'information carrying' capacity of CDs -
the average LP lasts approximately 7 minutes per side;

Uh ? More like 20 mins IIRC.

Pretty sure Def Leppard "Hysteria" is over an hour long. But yeah, that's
uncommon.


Martin
--
M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967 110890
Manchester, U.K. http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=fleetie

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Eiron" wrote in message

Eeyore wrote:

I HAVE heard bad CD players such as the original Sony
CDP-101. It souded 'harsh' to me (one can speculate over
what casued that) and I was convinced that
reverberation was being truncated (although that could
have been the result of flawed mastering).

Me too. I never discovered whether it was my neighbour's
CDP-101, the 'Realistic'
amp and speakers or the 1980's music but something gave
me a headache. Perhaps he's still got it in the junk box;
it would be interesting to find out how bad it was.

I have two operational CDP 101s at my disposal.

I ran some technical tests on one of them some years ago and posted the
results he

http://www.pcavtech.com/play-rec/Sony_CDP-101/index.htm

The roll-off above 10 KHz is about 0.5 dB down at 20 KHz - its pretty gentle
but there are reports that it can be heard in careful DBTs using certain
choral music or pink noise as the source. OK, it sounds a tiny bit soft when
compared to the original, but only in a close comparison and then only with
certain very critical program material.

The interchannel delay can be heard if you have a center channel speaker
that is fed with the two channels summed, again only with certain program
material. Again, the difference is usually noticed as a slightly soft sound.

From time to time both myself and the owner of one of the players play these
players for people without telling them what they are hearing. As a rule,
nobody notices nuttin'. They very much sound like good modern CD players.
There were a large number of earlier CDP 101s that were built with some
chips that failed after about 5 years of heavy use, and when failing, slowly
ruined the tracking. Later versions had a corrected chip/ One of the two
players had the chips replaced. I don't know much about the history of the
other one, but it tracks CDs and CDRs just fine.

My personal very early production CDP101 also had the problem with the bad
chip. When it stopped tracking and couldn't be adjusted to track, I just
threw it away and bought a Technics player. The Technics failed about 7
years after that.

I currently either play ripped CDs from my file server collection of .wav
files, or play CDs on my RCA DVR or Pioneer combo CD/DVD/DVD-A/SACD player.

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Eeyore" wrote in
message
Arny Krueger wrote:

There is no chance that there is anything wrong with the
sound of the CD format since it is sonically transparent.

No help to those who actively seek colouration though.
Same as valve amps. The two ( liking valves and LPs)
seem to go hand-in-hand which strongly suggests to me
that those people like a strongly coloured sound.

I think that sentimentality, a desire to be different for the sake of being
different, and gettting attention is behind most of the adamant LP
preference we see expressed around here.

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Eeyore" wrote in
message
Arny Krueger wrote:

There is no chance that there is anything wrong with the
sound of the CD format since it is sonically transparent.

No help to those who actively seek colouration though.
Same as valve amps. The two ( liking valves and LPs)
seem to go hand-in-hand which strongly suggests to me
that those people like a strongly coloured sound.

I think that sentimentality, a desire to be different for the sake of
being different, and gettting attention is behind most of the adamant LP
preference we see expressed around here.

Add to that a liking for horn loudspeakers, and we have the triumvirate -
vinyl-valves-horns. Coloration rules OK?
S.


--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Keith G wrote:

"Bob Latham" wrote

If you guys say so. I would say enormous numbers of people prefer LPs
to
Cds.

Sure - the majority of people I know (who care about music) do....

Are they all very old people like you ?


First time I've been called 'very old'! :-)

Anyway, no - one of them is my son!


Maybe their hearing loss is masking some
of the more obvious defects ?


In the case of my son, his kit (Technics/B&W) masks any differences between
CD and LP but he prefers *playing* the LPs and is a collector of various
types of vinyl specialities (picture discs, promos &c.)...

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Keith G wrote:

but let's not forget the far superior 'information carrying' capacity of
CDs -
the average LP lasts approximately 7 minutes per side;

Uh ? More like 20 mins IIRC.


the average music CD lasts 3 days....

Anything that plays for 3 days ISN'T an audio *CD* ! An audio CD is
limited to ~
50 mins.


To paraphrase Judge Judy: Your looks, voice and mental ability will fade
eventually, but *dumb* is for life...

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Eeyore" wrote in
message
Keith G wrote:

but let's not forget the far superior 'information
carrying' capacity of CDs - the average LP lasts
approximately 7 minutes per side;

Uh ? More like 20 mins IIRC.

Agreed. Except that LPs are generally so bad that it is questionable
whether you can call the corrupted mess that can be recovered from them
*music*.


Catch a grip, Arny....

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Eiron" wrote in message
...
Eeyore wrote:

I HAVE heard bad CD players such as the original Sony CDP-101. It souded
'harsh'
to me (one can speculate over what casued that) and I was convinced that
reverberation was being truncated (although that could have been the
result of
flawed mastering).

Me too. I never discovered whether it was my neighbour's CDP-101, the
'Realistic'
amp and speakers or the 1980's music but something gave me a headache.


Hmm, spoilt for choice there...


Perhaps he's still got it in the junk box; it would be interesting to
find out how bad it was.


Then you could stick pins in your eyes to round the evening off....

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Eeyore" wrote in
message
Arny Krueger wrote:

There is no chance that there is anything wrong with the
sound of the CD format since it is sonically transparent.

No help to those who actively seek colouration though.
Same as valve amps. The two ( liking valves and LPs)
seem to go hand-in-hand which strongly suggests to me
that those people like a strongly coloured sound.

I think that sentimentality, a desire to be different for the sake of
being different, and gettting attention is behind most of the adamant LP
preference we see expressed around here.


Catch a grip, Arny....

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Eeyore" wrote in
message
Arny Krueger wrote:

There is no chance that there is anything wrong with the
sound of the CD format since it is sonically transparent.

No help to those who actively seek colouration though.
Same as valve amps. The two ( liking valves and LPs)
seem to go hand-in-hand which strongly suggests to me
that those people like a strongly coloured sound.

I think that sentimentality, a desire to be different for the sake of
being different, and gettting attention is behind most of the adamant LP
preference we see expressed around here.

Add to that a liking for horn loudspeakers, and we have the triumvirate -
vinyl-valves-horns. Coloration rules OK?


Make that the 'Holy Trinity' and *natural sound* rules OK and we, for once,
could well be in accord, Serge!

;-)

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

Keith G wrote:

"Eiron" wrote in message
...
Eeyore wrote:

I HAVE heard bad CD players such as the original Sony CDP-101. It
souded 'harsh'
to me (one can speculate over what casued that) and I was convinced
that
reverberation was being truncated (although that could have been the
result of
flawed mastering).

Me too. I never discovered whether it was my neighbour's CDP-101, the
'Realistic'
amp and speakers or the 1980's music but something gave me a headache.


Hmm, spoilt for choice there...


Perhaps he's still got it in the junk box; it would be interesting to
find out how bad it was.


Then you could stick pins in your eyes to round the evening off....

Pins in the eyes or listening to Howard Jones and a-ha. A difficult choice.

--
Eiron.

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

Serge Auckland wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Eeyore" wrote in
message
Arny Krueger wrote:

There is no chance that there is anything wrong with the
sound of the CD format since it is sonically transparent.
No help to those who actively seek colouration though.
Same as valve amps. The two ( liking valves and LPs)
seem to go hand-in-hand which strongly suggests to me
that those people like a strongly coloured sound.
I think that sentimentality, a desire to be different for the sake of
being different, and gettting attention is behind most of the adamant LP
preference we see expressed around here.

Add to that a liking for horn loudspeakers, and we have the triumvirate -
vinyl-valves-horns. Coloration rules OK?

They're not real horns.

--
Eiron.

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Arny Krueger wrote:

There is no chance that there is anything wrong with the
sound of the CD format since it is sonically transparent.

No help to those who actively seek colouration though.
Same as valve amps. The two ( liking valves and LPs)
seem to go hand-in-hand which strongly suggests to me
that those people like a strongly coloured sound.

I think that sentimentality, a desire to be different for the sake of being
different, and gettting attention is behind most of the adamant LP
preference we see expressed around here.

One thing for sure ... I used to do a lot of headphone listening. Still do in
fact.

Headphones reveal the failings of LPs very cruelly. Listening on speakers seems
to be less unkind to them.

Graham

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

Serge Auckland wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote
"Eeyore" wrote
Arny Krueger wrote:

There is no chance that there is anything wrong with the
sound of the CD format since it is sonically transparent.

No help to those who actively seek colouration though.
Same as valve amps. The two ( liking valves and LPs)
seem to go hand-in-hand which strongly suggests to me
that those people like a strongly coloured sound.

I think that sentimentality, a desire to be different for the sake of
being different, and gettting attention is behind most of the adamant LP
preference we see expressed around here.

Add to that a liking for horn loudspeakers, and we have the triumvirate -
vinyl-valves-horns. Coloration rules OK?

Since you mention it, yes they do often go together.

Graham

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

Keith G wrote:

In the case of my son, his kit (Technics/B&W) masks any differences between
CD and LP but he prefers *playing* the LPs and is a collector of various
types of vinyl specialities (picture discs, promos &c.)...

What is there to enjoy about *playing* LPs ? It's an utter chore. I suppose all
the attendant fussing about required could be OCD !

Graham

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

Keith G wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Keith G wrote:

the average music CD lasts 3 days....

Anything that plays for 3 days ISN'T an audio *CD* ! An audio CD is
limited to ~ 50 mins.

To paraphrase Judge Judy: Your looks, voice and mental ability will fade
eventually, but *dumb* is for life...

A CD-ROM containing mp3 (or similar) files is not an audio CD and may not be
marketed as one.

Philips owns the rights to the *CD* trademark and requires Red Book compliance
before it can be used. That means (among other things) that a real *CD* may
only contain uncompressed audio. Philips has 'had words' with the likes of Sony
when they started marketing 'computer discs' as CDs. Basically they said "oh no
you don't".

Graham

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

Keith G wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote
"Eeyore" wrote
Arny Krueger wrote:

There is no chance that there is anything wrong with the
sound of the CD format since it is sonically transparent.

No help to those who actively seek colouration though.
Same as valve amps. The two ( liking valves and LPs)
seem to go hand-in-hand which strongly suggests to me
that those people like a strongly coloured sound.

I think that sentimentality, a desire to be different for the sake of
being different, and gettting attention is behind most of the adamant LP
preference we see expressed around here.

Catch a grip, Arny....

Oh come on. Some people really do like those dull orange and electric blue
glows coming from valve amps. Has nothing to do with sound quality of course.

Graham

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...


In the case of my son, his kit (Technics/B&W) masks any differences
between CD and LP

Interesting comment. In my experience the difference between CD and LP is
obvious even on the most lowly of kit.

David.

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Keith G wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Keith G wrote:

the average music CD lasts 3 days....

Anything that plays for 3 days ISN'T an audio *CD* ! An audio CD is
limited to ~ 50 mins.

To paraphrase Judge Judy: Your looks, voice and mental ability will fade
eventually, but *dumb* is for life...

A CD-ROM containing mp3 (or similar) files is not an audio CD and may not
be
marketed as one.

Philips owns the rights to the *CD* trademark and requires Red Book
compliance
before it can be used. That means (among other things) that a real *CD*
may
only contain uncompressed audio. Philips has 'had words' with the likes of
Sony
when they started marketing 'computer discs' as CDs. Basically they said
"oh no
you don't".


It seems the anti-CD brigade is resorting to dirty tricks. A CDROM
containing mp3 files ain't an audio CD.

David.

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


I HAVE heard bad CD players such as the original Sony CDP-101. It souded
'harsh'
to me (one can speculate over what casued that) and I was convinced that
reverberation was being truncated (although that could have been the
result of
flawed mastering).

As a result I didn't buy a CD player until ~ 1989. A Denon DCD-1710 which
sounded natural. I still have it. There seems no point in upgrading since
it
works fine plus its build quality is the kind of thing one is never likely
to
see again outside of esoteric hi-fi.

I also have a decent Panasonic DVD player. I honestly can't tell it apart
from
the Denon.


There is little doubt that some first generation CD players were pretty
crap, due to a combination of poor monolithic 16-bit DACs (poor linearity
due to the difficulty of ensuring that the weight of each bit was *exactly*
half that of the one before over the full range), time errors due to using
one DAC time-shared between the two channels (which created problems if the
outputs were combined for mono reproduction) and all-analogue "brick-wall"
reconstruction filters with poor phase response.

These problems were significantly reduced in second-generation players with
over-sampling, and pretty much eliminated in modern players with "1-bit"
converters. The distortions created by modern DACs are similar in nature to
those created by analogue systems such as amplifiers, and very significantly
lower than those created by analogue disc or tape.

David.

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Eeyore" wrote in
message
Arny Krueger wrote:

There is no chance that there is anything wrong with the
sound of the CD format since it is sonically transparent.

No help to those who actively seek colouration though.
Same as valve amps. The two ( liking valves and LPs)
seem to go hand-in-hand which strongly suggests to me
that those people like a strongly coloured sound.

I think that sentimentality, a desire to be different for the sake of
being different, and gettting attention is behind most of the adamant LP
preference we see expressed around here.

Hey, I like vintage technology too! I've got a collection of valve TV sets,
old telephones, a telephone repeater panel dating from 1924 and all sorts of
other items ("junk" as my wife calls it :-( )

And you must admit that there is something about steam railway locos that
modern electric ones just don't have. Why shouldn't the vinyl and valve-amp
brigade have their fun?

David.

Improving loudspeaker crossovers (SBL's)
 

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Keith G wrote:

In the case of my son, his kit (Technics/B&W) masks any differences
between
CD and LP but he prefers *playing* the LPs and is a collector of various
types of vinyl specialities (picture discs, promos &c.)...

What is there to enjoy about *playing* LPs ? It's an utter chore.


So's peeling vegetables - stupid really, when you could just open a can....