tony sayer wrote:

Eeyore scribeth thus

The absence of any meaningful baffle means the electrostatics will always have
poor bass repsponse. It's inherent to the design (the rear radiation cancels the
front

radiation more at low frequencies determined by its physical size).

So I wonder how I'm hearing that Organ recording I made 't other week?..

You'll still hear it of course. The lower frequencies will simply be attenuated
somewhat..

Graham

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

The cancellation of low frequencies as a result of their physical
construction. Unless you know of an IB electrostatic.

Do you have true infinite baffle moving coil speakers? I doubt it.

My EV Sentry IVs are not only horn loaded but have 100% isolation of the
rear radaition.


Of course they will cancel at a certain frequency and below. That's why
they are so large. But the cutoff frequency is lower than perhaps most
conventional designs - if you set a realistic attenuation as a cutoff.

IBs don't *have* to be huge to avoid the cancellation issue. Acoustic
labyrinth designs like PMCs effectively avoid the problem entirely.

Graham

Bob Latham wrote:

tony sayer wrote:
Eeyore scribeth thus

It's a well known fact you complete idiot that electrostatics are
bass light. It's

Coloration light you mean...

Electrostatics may indeed have less colouration than most speakers but
that has nothing to do with the bass.

Define bass

The absence of any meaningful baffle means the electrostatics will
always have poor bass repsponse. It's inherent to the design (the rear
radiation cancels the front

radiation more at low frequencies determined by its physical size).

So I wonder how I'm hearing that Organ recording I made 't other week?..

Harmonics?

Okay, that was unfair but you're not going to get deep bass from an open
backed speaker unless its huge. Anyone know the -3db point on Quad
electros? I think my KEFS (TEB) are -2db at 38Hz.

I'll go along with low coloration but it is well accepted that electro
statics of moderate size suffer the two weaknesses of poor l/f extension
and lower spl than TEBs, reflex or transmission lines. Of all the speakers
made in the world which one is most common to see two pairs stacked
together in an attempt to get some extension out of them. Wasn't the guy
who started SME famous for having stacked Quads in his listening room?

I've heard stacked Quads. Very nice but the owner still eventually added some
subs.

Graham

Bob Latham wrote:
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
In article , Eeyore rabbitsfriendsandrel
scribeth thus

It's a well known fact you complete idiot that electrostatics are
bass light. It's
Coloration light you mean...
Electrostatics may indeed have less colouration than most speakers but
that has nothing to do with the bass.

Define bass
The absence of any meaningful baffle means the electrostatics will
always have poor bass repsponse. It's inherent to the design (the rear
radiation cancels the front

radiation more at low frequencies determined by its physical size).

So I wonder how I'm hearing that Organ recording I made 't other week?..

Harmonics?

Okay, that was unfair but you're not going to get deep bass from an open
backed speaker unless its huge. Anyone know the -3db point on Quad
electros? I think my KEFS (TEB) are -2db at 38Hz.

http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/model.php...n t=3#details
"Axis band limits -6dB at 35Hz (3rd Order)"
Not much different to your KEFs.

I'll go along with low coloration but it is well accepted that electro
statics of moderate size suffer the two weaknesses of poor l/f extension
and lower spl than TEBs, reflex or transmission lines.

How loud do you need in your lounge? I wouldn't use ESLs for parties
but they are adequate for normal domestic use.

--
Eiron.

Eiron wrote:

How loud do you need in your lounge? I wouldn't use ESLs for parties
but they are adequate for normal domestic use.

Generally true, yes.

Graham

In article , Bob Latham
wrote:


Okay, that was unfair but you're not going to get deep bass from an open
backed speaker unless its huge. Anyone know the -3db point on Quad
electros? I think my KEFS (TEB) are -2db at 38Hz.

-6dB at 35Hz in the open IIRC.

It is worth bearing in mind that the ESL generates a force per unit area on
the diaphragm. This means that as you go to LF and air can move from front
to back more easily, the movement tends to increase for the same applied
voltage. So the main problem is that the max level obtainable without
arcing or physical limiting drops rapidly as you lower the frequency. Thus
the actual roll-off is an engineering trade-off designed to avoid this.

FWIW I have a pair of ESL63s in one room with no subm and a pair of 988s in
another with a sub. The 988/sub gives more power at LF so suit films and
'noisy' music, but the 63s give similar extension, and give a more natural
sound for classical music. However the room acoustics, etc, play a big part
in this.

I'll go along with low coloration but it is well accepted that electro
statics of moderate size suffer the two weaknesses of poor l/f extension
and lower spl than TEBs, reflex or transmission lines. Of all the
speakers made in the world which one is most common to see two pairs
stacked together in an attempt to get some extension out of them. Wasn't
the guy who started SME famous for having stacked Quads in his listening
room?

He had multiple speakers. Partly because the room was large. Partly to give
extra dispersion in a controlled manner. The problem wasn't lack of bass
IIRC. I doubt you would get much 'extension' of the bass by stacking a pair
of Quads as the air can find front-back paths of much the same length as
for a single unit, and the pressure interactions just reduce the diaphragm
movements to the extent that they interact. But the usual caveat applies,
that the room acoustic affects all this.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html

On Dec 24, 6:15*am, Eeyore
wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Eeyore *wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Eeyore *wrote:

Andre Jute wrote [to Patrick Turner]:

I have never been as impressed with ultra-low silicon-
level Rout as you are

Yeah, you're probably impressed by the phoney low end boost you get with
moving coil loudspeakers when driving them from a high outout impedance
(underdamped resonance). The phrase 'single note bass' comes to mind.

Nah. I have been going to live concerts and thinking seriously about
the music so as to be able to write about it for five decades now. I
know what reproduced music should sound like. If you want to know,
perhaps it is time for a guy your age, my dear Graham, to stop
pretending you're some kind of overage hipster, and replace those
boomboxes of yours with
a) a set of Mr Walker's marvellously precise electrostatic speakers
(ESL) and

Which don't have very much in the way of bass !

You must have heard that on the street corner where engineers who
cannot afford electrostats gather, Poopie.

It's a well known fact

That's what I said, Poopie, that all the idiots think they know this
for a fact because the other idiots on their street corner said so. I
prefer to trust my own experience. I actually have several pairs of
electrostats, and horns, and IBs, and vented speaks.

you complete idiot

Oh, I wouldn't claim the perfection of completion. I probably have
another thirty years to live, at least part of which I shall spend
polishing my idiocy to a gloss that will give apoplectic fits to zero-
imagination clowns like you at a hundred paces.

that electrostatics are bass light. It's
a natural consequence of their very construction.

Nope, it's not. First of all, electrostats are not inherently bass
light. Like every other speakers, their bass depends on their size and
their positioning in the room, not to mention the length of the room.
Your *opinion* that they are bass light merely reflects your lack of
imagination and perhaps the limitations of your accommodation, and
probably a lack of experience with electrostats.

First of all, you can put the edge of an ESL right up against the
wall, then on one side the wavelength to cancellation becomes the
entire length of wall to the other ESL against the opposite wall.

Second, you can stack ESL to get any amount of bass that a headbanger
like you considers necessary. All it takes is imagination, a certain
minimum of engineering skill, and money. If your room is around 45
feet or longer, a pair of ESL to each wall will be good, with each
pair together at one edge and angled to put about 12in between the
centrepoints, the open end of the triangle hard up against the wall.
If the room is long enough put the two triangles of ESL about halfway
along the long walls. Try it. Wherever you are in the room, the sound
will follow you like the Mona Lisa's eyes, and you will have bass down
to Tannoy horn levels (and there is nothing but nothing more
authoritative than the bass a big horn attaches to the floor and the
walls and the ceiling, to your very skin). If you're high enough on
bad dope to want to ruin your ears, stack another pair of ESL on top
of each pair already against the wall. It isn't even necessary to
angle them because this is just higher quality bass reinforcement than
you get with a sub (subs for dipoles and particularly for electrostats
are a pain because they can't match that ultra-clean quality of the
midrange).

Third, a dipole isn't a problem, it is an opportunity. Consider your
older type of grand house, built to have an enfilade of rooms all
connected to each other in a row, like an art gallery. Now consider
the opportunity of a Bessel array, which becomes domestically feasible
with ESL in rooms around 40 feet long. All you do to get all the bass
of electrostats is to set up a Bessel array of as few as five or seven
electrostats in a row in the space between the two rooms, fill in the
holes, and Bob's your uncle, for less cost than the 2x or 4x pyramid
of drivers per wall (8 or 16 for two rooms) you have two rooms full of
point source sound following you wherever you go, including excellent
clean bass down to the mid-20s. Don't give me bull about box speakers
being able to match that sort of quality; everyone with the slightest
experience knows it isn't true. You can learn about Bessel arrays on
my netsite at: at:http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/JUTE%20on
%20BESSEL.htm
Of course, Bessel is an engineering solution for cheapskates wanting
quality sound, and ESL are not exactly for cheapskates but, hey, let a
thousand flowers bloom.

Graham

You should put your mind in gear sometime, Poopie. You will find the
new experience exhilarating. You might even want to do it again.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

On Dec 24, 10:26*am, Eeyore
wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
*Eeyore wrote:

You must have heard that on the street corner where engineers who
cannot afford electrostats gather, Poopie.

It's a well known fact you complete idiot that electrostatics are bass
light. It's a natural consequence of their very construction.

You'd need to qualify 'bass light'.

The cancellation of low frequencies as a result of their physical
construction. Unless you know of an IB electrostatic.

Graham

Aw, hell, Poopie, do you have zero imagination? I've built ESL into
the walls between rooms. That makes each room an IB electrostatic. You
get *very* convincing bass living *inside* your speakers.

Andre Jute
Perception is a skill that requires study and careful development over
along period of time. Few have it as a natural gift. -- Iain Churches

On Dec 24, 11:24*am, Eeyore
wrote:
tony sayer wrote:
Eeyore *scribeth thus
Andre Jute wrote:
Eeyore *wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Eeyore *wrote:

Andre Jute wrote [to Patrick Turner]:

I have never been as impressed with ultra-low silicon-
level Rout as you are

Yeah, you're probably impressed by the phoney low end boost you get with
moving coil loudspeakers when driving them from a high outout impedance
(underdamped resonance). The phrase 'single note bass' comes to mind.

Nah. I have been going to live concerts and thinking seriously about
the music so as to be able to write about it for five decades now.. I
know what reproduced music should sound like. If you want to know,
perhaps it is time for a guy your age, my dear Graham, to stop
pretending you're some kind of overage hipster, and replace those
boomboxes of yours with
a) a set of Mr Walker's marvellously precise electrostatic speakers
(ESL) and

Which don't have very much in the way of bass !

You must have heard that on the street corner where engineers who
cannot afford electrostats gather, Poopie.

It's a well known fact you complete idiot that electrostatics are bass light.
It's

Coloration light you mean...

Electrostatics may indeed have less colouration than most speakers but that has
nothing to do with the bass.

It has everything to do with the bass. Because the bass of an
electrostat is so clean, you can turn it up higher. Most of what
people like you call bass on little box speakers is simply distortion.

The absence of any meaningful baffle means the electrostatics will always have poor
bass repsponse.

This is the nonsense of someone who doesn't have his mind in gear, who
has always simply accepted the lowest common denominator cheap ****
the mass marketers peddle. Yo, Poopie, open your ears and eyes: the
wall is the electrostat's baffle: you just put the thin edge hard up
against the wall. Or you build the electrostat into the wall between
two rooms.

It's inherent to the design (the rear radiation cancels the front
radiation more at low frequencies determined by its physical size).

But, as with every other loudspeaker, your argument simply resolves to
the question of "How much does the customer wish to pay for the best
sound?" If he truly wants the best, he simply buys the biggest Quad
electrostats, and for more of that sound, he buys more of them to
stack, and for even more, he breaks a wall out between two rooms in
his house.

Graham

It's simple when you define the problem correctly, see, Poopie?

Andre Jute
Thumbs well clear of the bricks

On Dec 24, 12:13*pm, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Eeyore rabbitsfriendsandrel
scribeth thus





tony sayer wrote:

Eeyore *scribeth thus
Andre Jute wrote:
Eeyore *wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:
Eeyore *wrote:

Andre Jute wrote [to Patrick Turner]:

I have never been as impressed with ultra-low silicon-
level Rout as you are

Yeah, you're probably impressed by the phoney low end boost you get
with
moving coil loudspeakers when driving them from a high outout
impedance
(underdamped resonance). The phrase 'single note bass' comes to mind.

Nah. I have been going to live concerts and thinking seriously about
the music so as to be able to write about it for five decades now. I
know what reproduced music should sound like. If you want to know,
perhaps it is time for a guy your age, my dear Graham, to stop
pretending you're some kind of overage hipster, and replace those
boomboxes of yours with
a) a set of Mr Walker's marvellously precise electrostatic speakers
(ESL) and

Which don't have very much in the way of bass !

You must have heard that on the street corner where engineers who
cannot afford electrostats gather, Poopie.

It's a well known fact you complete idiot that electrostatics are bass light.
It's

Coloration light you mean...

Electrostatics may indeed have less colouration than most speakers but that has
nothing to do with the bass.

Define bass



The absence of any meaningful baffle means the electrostatics will always have
poor
bass repsponse. It's inherent to the design (the rear radiation cancels the
front

radiation more at low frequencies determined by its physical size).

So I wonder how I'm hearing that Organ recording I made 't other week?..

Humm.....



Graham

--
Tony Sayer

This is probably episode 48754 in The Continuing Saga of the Fruitless
Efforts of an Entire Hobbyist Community to Educate Poopie Stevenson.
It started when Poopie interjected himself into a lighthearted
conversation between Patrick Turner and me about damping factors in
big transmitting tube amps. The key paragraph in my original letter
which refers to what you hear from the organ is the one starting "I
might add that as a psychologist I understand perception".

******
Eeyore wrote:

Andre Jute wrote [to Patrick Turner]:

I have never been as impressed with ultra-low silicon-
level Rout as you are

Yeah, you're probably impressed by the phoney low end boost you get with
moving coil loudspeakers when driving them from a high outout impedance
(underdamped resonance). The phrase 'single note bass' comes to mind.

Graham

Nah. I have been going to live concerts and thinking seriously about
the music so as to be able to write about it for five decades now. I
know what reproduced music should sound like. If you want to know,
perhaps it is time for a guy your age, my dear Graham, to stop
pretending you're some kind of overage hipster, and replace those
boomboxes of yours with
a) a set of Mr Walker's marvellously precise electrostatic speakers
(ESL) and
b) buy or build a pair of horns with Lowther driver and make my HWAF
mods to them, which are simple enough even for your limited dexterity
to achieve. You can see here how (relatively) simple it can be if you
start out with the factory-sawn wood: http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...20T91HWAF3.jpg

If QUAD ESL are beyond your budget, and my T91 HWAF Lowther horns
beyond your woodworking skills or budget, you might consider that it
is not difficult to align a speaker to whatever bass is required and
to match it the DF of the amp. My Impresario speaker at
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...Impresario.jpg
can be built for under £250 per pair, are simple straightsided boxes
with only one brace the same size as a top or bottom panel, therefore
can be built even by the tenthumbed, and work with an inexpensive SE
amp for which I also provide a design, my SEntry amp using trioded
EL34, a cheap taste of Nirvana for those on student budgets:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/Jute-EL34-SEntry.jpg

I might add that as a psychologist I understand perception, including
a point about musical perception that electronics engineers have the
greatest difficulty in grasping, to wit that the weight of the
fundamental is pretty low in reconstructing the frequency in the ear.
I demonstrated that the other day with regard to 196Hz on a violin in
a letter to Iain Churches which, typically, elicited no discussion
because no-one except he and I are interested, and we already know
about it. It means that the vaunted "audio range" of the engineers,
20Hz to 20kHz, is a joke at both ends, at the top end because most
people never were able to hear that high, at the bottom end because
the lowest note on any musical instrument, 16Hz on some organs, is
more than adequately produced in *any room of correct length* (and
preferably golden ratio proportions) by an amp that goes down to only
32Hz. That is one reason why my T39 KISS Amp
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/T...trafi-crct.jpg
is rolled off at 32Hz. (The other reason for rolling off an amp for
use with horns precisely right, or on the high side of precisely right
if you cannot achieve precision, is that a horn unloads the driver
right suddenly under Fs and you don't want the cone flapping around
pointlessly, a tricky special-instance consideration with horns).

So, to summarize, no "phoney low end boost" chez Jute (except for when
I deliberately do it as a joke, as for instance on my "Christmas
Pipes" for playing Gregorian Chant with *extra ambiance*). Quite the
contrary. I have put in the thought and spent the money to match my
amps and rooms precisely to the best speakers I could buy or build. It
is a method you might consider seriously now that you have outgrown
boomboxes, if indeed you have. I make no moral judgement about vented
speakers, you understand; I am merely more interested in making the
music sound like the concert hall than in the sound in isolation.

Andre Jute
For more visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

*****