Dual concentric
 

It occurred to me when fitting some new car speakers that a dual
concentric design would be ideal for this use. But they all seem to have
tweeters just stuck on the front. Any reason why this design has fallen
out of favour?

--
*Pride is what we have. Vanity is what others have.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dual concentric
 

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 13:17:30 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

It occurred to me when fitting some new car speakers that a dual
concentric design would be ideal for this use. But they all seem to have
tweeters just stuck on the front. Any reason why this design has fallen
out of favour?

Cost of manufacture would be my guess. With the tweeter stuck out in
front mixing and matching between models is easy - just change the
cosmetics.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Dual concentric
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

It occurred to me when fitting some new car speakers that a dual
concentric design would be ideal for this use. But they all seem to have
tweeters just stuck on the front. Any reason why this design has fallen
out of favour?

More complicated to make perhaps ? Greater depth would be a disadvantage in
ICE too.

Graham

Dual concentric
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
It occurred to me when fitting some new car speakers that a dual
concentric design would be ideal for this use. But they all seem to have
tweeters just stuck on the front. Any reason why this design has fallen
out of favour?

**Perhaps people have finally discovered what I found a few decades ago:
They sound like ****. Given that midrange frequencies are being bounced off
the back of the tweeter, the result ends up sounding like a pig's breakfast.
I've never heard a decent dual concentric car speaker. Perhaps it's due to
the shockingly bad crossovers used. Maybe it's just the cheap, crappy
drivers.

Trevor Wilson

Dual concentric
 

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
It occurred to me when fitting some new car speakers that a dual
concentric design would be ideal for this use. But they all seem to have
tweeters just stuck on the front. Any reason why this design has fallen
out of favour?

**Perhaps people have finally discovered what I found a few decades ago:
They sound like ****. Given that midrange frequencies are being bounced
off the back of the tweeter, the result ends up sounding like a pig's
breakfast. I've never heard a decent dual concentric car speaker. Perhaps
it's due to the shockingly bad crossovers used. Maybe it's just the cheap,
crappy drivers.

Trevor Wilson
what about in home audio then......cant say ive liked the sound of any of
kef d/c designs that much

Dual concentric
 

"corks" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
It occurred to me when fitting some new car speakers that a dual
concentric design would be ideal for this use. But they all seem to have
tweeters just stuck on the front. Any reason why this design has fallen
out of favour?

**Perhaps people have finally discovered what I found a few decades ago:
They sound like ****. Given that midrange frequencies are being bounced
off the back of the tweeter, the result ends up sounding like a pig's
breakfast. I've never heard a decent dual concentric car speaker. Perhaps
it's due to the shockingly bad crossovers used. Maybe it's just the
cheap, crappy drivers.

Trevor Wilson
what about in home audio then......cant say ive liked the sound of any of
kef d/c designs that much

**AFAIK, the KEF (and other) products don't bugger up the sound by placing
the tweeter in front of the bass/mid driver. Having said that, I can't get
excited about any dual concentric driver I've ever heard. Including the much
vaunted Tannoys.

Trevor Wilson

Dual concentric
 

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
It occurred to me when fitting some new car speakers that a dual
concentric design would be ideal for this use. But they all seem to
have
tweeters just stuck on the front. Any reason why this design has
fallen
out of favour?

**Perhaps people have finally discovered what I found a few decades
ago: They sound like ****. Given that midrange frequencies are being
bounced off the back of the tweeter, the result ends up sounding like
a pig's breakfast. I've never heard a decent dual concentric car
speaker. Perhaps it's due to the shockingly bad crossovers used. Maybe
it's just the cheap, crappy drivers.

Trevor Wilson



Also perhaps to do with the fact that the stereo 'information' is
carried by the higher frequencies which are lost in the carpet and seats
in most cars so many manufacturers have gone for seperate mid-high
speakers (not just tweeters) in the ends of the dash or the top corners
of the doors. It also means that they can then fit lower quality
speakers that do not need to handle full range in the doors and get what
the punter perceives to be better quality (i.e. more bass.)


--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com

Dual concentric
 

Woody wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote

It occurred to me when fitting some new car speakers that a dual
concentric design would be ideal for this use. But they all seem to
have
tweeters just stuck on the front. Any reason why this design has
fallen
out of favour?

**Perhaps people have finally discovered what I found a few decades
ago: They sound like ****. Given that midrange frequencies are being
bounced off the back of the tweeter, the result ends up sounding like
a pig's breakfast. I've never heard a decent dual concentric car
speaker. Perhaps it's due to the shockingly bad crossovers used. Maybe
it's just the cheap, crappy drivers.


Also perhaps to do with the fact that the stereo 'information' is
carried by the higher frequencies which are lost in the carpet and seats
in most cars so many manufacturers have gone for seperate mid-high
speakers (not just tweeters) in the ends of the dash or the top corners
of the doors. It also means that they can then fit lower quality
speakers that do not need to handle full range in the doors and get what
the punter perceives to be better quality (i.e. more bass.)

You didn't seriously imagine that it's possible to get a proper stereo image
in a car did you?

Graham

Dual concentric
 

In article ,
Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
It occurred to me when fitting some new car speakers that a dual
concentric design would be ideal for this use. But they all seem to
have tweeters just stuck on the front. Any reason why this design has
fallen out of favour?

**Perhaps people have finally discovered what I found a few decades ago:
They sound like ****. Given that midrange frequencies are being bounced
off the back of the tweeter, the result ends up sounding like a pig's
breakfast. I've never heard a decent dual concentric car speaker.
Perhaps it's due to the shockingly bad crossovers used. Maybe it's just
the cheap, crappy drivers.

You've confused me. Are you referring to the 'standard' design with a
tweeter or tweeters added to the main unit - or a dual concentric? I've
never seen a dual concentric for car use.

--
*Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dual concentric
 

In article , Woody
scribeth thus

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
It occurred to me when fitting some new car speakers that a dual
concentric design would be ideal for this use. But they all seem to
have
tweeters just stuck on the front. Any reason why this design has
fallen
out of favour?

**Perhaps people have finally discovered what I found a few decades
ago: They sound like ****. Given that midrange frequencies are being
bounced off the back of the tweeter, the result ends up sounding like
a pig's breakfast. I've never heard a decent dual concentric car
speaker. Perhaps it's due to the shockingly bad crossovers used. Maybe
it's just the cheap, crappy drivers.

Trevor Wilson



Also perhaps to do with the fact that the stereo 'information' is
carried by the higher frequencies which are lost in the carpet and seats
in most cars so many manufacturers have gone for seperate mid-high
speakers (not just tweeters) in the ends of the dash or the top corners
of the doors. It also means that they can then fit lower quality
speakers that do not need to handle full range in the doors and get what
the punter perceives to be better quality (i.e. more bass.)



I've been out in a few new motahs over the festive madness, and I can't
say that in any of them .. Saab, Mercedes, and VW we're that
"impressive" and none of them had a DAB radio as factory fit
either!.....
--
Tony Sayer

Dual concentric
 

In article , Eeyore rabbitsfriendsandrel
scribeth thus


Woody wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote

It occurred to me when fitting some new car speakers that a dual
concentric design would be ideal for this use. But they all seem to
have
tweeters just stuck on the front. Any reason why this design has
fallen
out of favour?

**Perhaps people have finally discovered what I found a few decades
ago: They sound like ****. Given that midrange frequencies are being
bounced off the back of the tweeter, the result ends up sounding like
a pig's breakfast. I've never heard a decent dual concentric car
speaker. Perhaps it's due to the shockingly bad crossovers used. Maybe
it's just the cheap, crappy drivers.


Also perhaps to do with the fact that the stereo 'information' is
carried by the higher frequencies which are lost in the carpet and seats
in most cars so many manufacturers have gone for seperate mid-high
speakers (not just tweeters) in the ends of the dash or the top corners
of the doors. It also means that they can then fit lower quality
speakers that do not need to handle full range in the doors and get what
the punter perceives to be better quality (i.e. more bass.)

You didn't seriously imagine that it's possible to get a proper stereo image
in a car did you?

Graham


No course not!.. but there is a very pleasant difference in my car a 10
Y/O old Audi A6 betwixt Mono and Stereo which makes that worthwhile;!...
--
Tony Sayer

Dual concentric
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrel
scribeth thus


Woody wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote

It occurred to me when fitting some new car speakers that a dual
concentric design would be ideal for this use. But they all seem
to
have
tweeters just stuck on the front. Any reason why this design has
fallen
out of favour?

**Perhaps people have finally discovered what I found a few
decades
ago: They sound like ****. Given that midrange frequencies are
being
bounced off the back of the tweeter, the result ends up sounding
like
a pig's breakfast. I've never heard a decent dual concentric car
speaker. Perhaps it's due to the shockingly bad crossovers used.
Maybe
it's just the cheap, crappy drivers.


Also perhaps to do with the fact that the stereo 'information' is
carried by the higher frequencies which are lost in the carpet and
seats
in most cars so many manufacturers have gone for seperate mid-high
speakers (not just tweeters) in the ends of the dash or the top
corners
of the doors. It also means that they can then fit lower quality
speakers that do not need to handle full range in the doors and get
what
the punter perceives to be better quality (i.e. more bass.)

You didn't seriously imagine that it's possible to get a proper stereo
image
in a car did you?

Graham


No course not!.. but there is a very pleasant difference in my car a
10
Y/O old Audi A6 betwixt Mono and Stereo which makes that
worthwhile;!...
--
Tony Sayer



That's what I really meant.

It is surprising when you have a DAB/FM radio in the car and you switch
between the same station in the different formats (or the radio does it
itself) how often the FM reception is in mono because the signal
strength is too low - the only advantage of DAB I suppose as it is
always in stereo with good separation if you can hear it. ClassicFM and
especially choral show it up inbcredibly well.


--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com

Dual concentric
 

In article , Woody
scribeth thus

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrel
scribeth thus


Woody wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote

It occurred to me when fitting some new car speakers that a dual
concentric design would be ideal for this use. But they all seem
to
have
tweeters just stuck on the front. Any reason why this design has
fallen
out of favour?

**Perhaps people have finally discovered what I found a few
decades
ago: They sound like ****. Given that midrange frequencies are
being
bounced off the back of the tweeter, the result ends up sounding
like
a pig's breakfast. I've never heard a decent dual concentric car
speaker. Perhaps it's due to the shockingly bad crossovers used.
Maybe
it's just the cheap, crappy drivers.


Also perhaps to do with the fact that the stereo 'information' is
carried by the higher frequencies which are lost in the carpet and
seats
in most cars so many manufacturers have gone for seperate mid-high
speakers (not just tweeters) in the ends of the dash or the top
corners
of the doors. It also means that they can then fit lower quality
speakers that do not need to handle full range in the doors and get
what
the punter perceives to be better quality (i.e. more bass.)

You didn't seriously imagine that it's possible to get a proper stereo
image
in a car did you?

Graham


No course not!.. but there is a very pleasant difference in my car a
10
Y/O old Audi A6 betwixt Mono and Stereo which makes that
worthwhile;!...
--
Tony Sayer



That's what I really meant.

It is surprising when you have a DAB/FM radio in the car and you switch
between the same station in the different formats (or the radio does it
itself) how often the FM reception is in mono because the signal
strength is too low - the only advantage of DAB I suppose as it is
always in stereo with good separation if you can hear it.

When it is;(..


ClassicFM and
especially choral show it up inbcredibly well.

Wot abaht the Jazz;?...



--
Tony Sayer

Dual concentric
 

Trevor Wilson wrote:

Having said that, I can't get
excited about any dual concentric driver I've ever heard. Including the much
vaunted Tannoys.

Trevor Wilson



Dunno why. The Tannoy Monitor Gold series are stunning in their stereo
stage management. I heard them a lot in UK studios in the 70s and the
only thing that came anywhere near then were the big JBls. We had 15
inch Golds in huge Lockwood cabinets on wheels at Neve for checking the
sound of consoles. I still use a pair of 2 inch Monitor Golds to this
day. Best speakers ever invented IMHO.

Cheers

Ian

Dual concentric
 

Ian Thompson-Bell wrote:

Trevor Wilson wrote:

Having said that, I can't get excited about any dual concentric driver I've
ever heard. Including the much vaunted Tannoys.


Dunno why. The Tannoy Monitor Gold series are stunning in their stereo
stage management. I heard them a lot in UK studios in the 70s and the
only thing that came anywhere near then were the big JBls.

Can't agree at all. To my ears the Reds actually sounded a little more natural.
The Golds seemed to squawk a bit to me.


We had 15 inch Golds in huge Lockwood cabinets on wheels at Neve for checking
the
sound of consoles.

And rubbish they are too. Especially with all that polished wooden floor.
Lockwoods are vile cabinets. As you might expect from a coffin maker.


I still use a pair of 2 inch Monitor Golds to this
day. Best speakers ever invented IMHO.

You must be deaf. I got that impression about quite a few people at Neve,
especially those in the top jobs. Deaf, incompetent or just not bothered sums them
up.

Graahm

Dual concentric
 

"Woody" wrote in message
...

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Eeyore rabbitsfriendsandrel
scribeth thus


Woody wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote

It occurred to me when fitting some new car speakers that a dual
concentric design would be ideal for this use. But they all seem to
have
tweeters just stuck on the front. Any reason why this design has
fallen
out of favour?

**Perhaps people have finally discovered what I found a few decades
ago: They sound like ****. Given that midrange frequencies are being
bounced off the back of the tweeter, the result ends up sounding like
a pig's breakfast. I've never heard a decent dual concentric car
speaker. Perhaps it's due to the shockingly bad crossovers used.
Maybe
it's just the cheap, crappy drivers.


Also perhaps to do with the fact that the stereo 'information' is
carried by the higher frequencies which are lost in the carpet and
seats
in most cars so many manufacturers have gone for seperate mid-high
speakers (not just tweeters) in the ends of the dash or the top corners
of the doors. It also means that they can then fit lower quality
speakers that do not need to handle full range in the doors and get
what
the punter perceives to be better quality (i.e. more bass.)

You didn't seriously imagine that it's possible to get a proper stereo
image
in a car did you?

Graham


No course not!.. but there is a very pleasant difference in my car a 10
Y/O old Audi A6 betwixt Mono and Stereo which makes that worthwhile;!...
--
Tony Sayer



That's what I really meant.

It is surprising when you have a DAB/FM radio in the car and you switch
between the same station in the different formats (or the radio does it
itself) how often the FM reception is in mono because the signal strength
is too low - the only advantage of DAB I suppose as it is always in stereo
with good separation if you can hear it. ClassicFM and especially choral
show it up inbcredibly well.

I've been told that it's very lacking in dynamic range and when listening to
Radio 3, quiet bits in the music can become silent bits...

Dual concentric
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Woody
scribeth thus

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrel
scribeth thus


Woody wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote

It occurred to me when fitting some new car speakers that a
dual
concentric design would be ideal for this use. But they all
seem
to
have
tweeters just stuck on the front. Any reason why this design
has
fallen
out of favour?

**Perhaps people have finally discovered what I found a few
decades
ago: They sound like ****. Given that midrange frequencies are
being
bounced off the back of the tweeter, the result ends up sounding
like
a pig's breakfast. I've never heard a decent dual concentric car
speaker. Perhaps it's due to the shockingly bad crossovers used.
Maybe
it's just the cheap, crappy drivers.


Also perhaps to do with the fact that the stereo 'information' is
carried by the higher frequencies which are lost in the carpet and
seats
in most cars so many manufacturers have gone for seperate mid-high
speakers (not just tweeters) in the ends of the dash or the top
corners
of the doors. It also means that they can then fit lower quality
speakers that do not need to handle full range in the doors and
get
what
the punter perceives to be better quality (i.e. more bass.)

You didn't seriously imagine that it's possible to get a proper
stereo
image
in a car did you?

Graham


No course not!.. but there is a very pleasant difference in my car a
10
Y/O old Audi A6 betwixt Mono and Stereo which makes that
worthwhile;!...
--
Tony Sayer



That's what I really meant.

It is surprising when you have a DAB/FM radio in the car and you
switch
between the same station in the different formats (or the radio does
it
itself) how often the FM reception is in mono because the signal
strength is too low - the only advantage of DAB I suppose as it is
always in stereo with good separation if you can hear it.

When it is;(..


ClassicFM and
especially choral show it up inbcredibly well.

Wot abaht the Jazz;?...



--
Tony Sayer




Cos, Tone, theJazz is transmitted in 80K mono ........MONO in this day
and age!!!!


--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com

Dual concentric
 

Eeyore wrote:


You must be deaf. I got that impression about quite a few people at Neve,
especially those in the top jobs. Deaf, incompetent or just not bothered sums them
up.



I am 57 now and I am beginning to go deaf. I certainly wasn't deaf in
the 70s - wish I could as well as that now.

Seems like you never had any manners though.

Nuff Said

Ian

Dual concentric
 

"Ian Thompson-Bell" wrote in message
...
Trevor Wilson wrote:

Having said that, I can't get
excited about any dual concentric driver I've ever heard. Including the
much vaunted Tannoys.

Trevor Wilson

Dunno why.

**I do. They 'honk'.

The Tannoy Monitor Gold series are stunning in their stereo
stage management.

**Perhaps. They do so many other things wrong, though.

I heard them a lot in UK studios in the 70s and the
only thing that came anywhere near then were the big JBls. We had 15 inch
Golds in huge Lockwood cabinets on wheels at Neve for checking the sound
of consoles. I still use a pair of 2 inch Monitor Golds to this day. Best
speakers ever invented IMHO.

**That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Speakers tend to be a
personal choice product. What works for one person, doesn't for another. I
don't like dual concentric speakers. Mind you: I am partial to a properly
executed and set up pair of ESLs.

Trevor Wilson

Dual concentric
 

Ian Thompson-Bell wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

You must be deaf. I got that impression about quite a few people at Neve,
especially those in the top jobs. Deaf, incompetent or just not bothered sums them
up.

I am 57 now and I am beginning to go deaf. I certainly wasn't deaf in
the 70s - wish I could as well as that now.

Seems like you never had any manners though.

I'm not one for 'doffing my cap' in the usual English defential manner to those who like
to present themselves as my 'betters' who are actually clueless. Paying homage to
ancient and miserable sounding Tannoys is another thing I won't stomach.

I was appalled at the level of disinterest in audio within the 'board' at Neve. That's
one reason I quit after about 3 years as a project leader. I could see they were heading
for failure, and indeed it was so.

Graham

Dual concentric
 

Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Ian Thompson-Bell" wrote

I heard them a lot in UK studios in the 70s and the
only thing that came anywhere near then were the big JBls.

Can't have listened to very much then !


We had 15 inch
Golds in huge Lockwood cabinets on wheels at Neve for checking the sound
of consoles. I still use a pair of 2 inch Monitor Golds to this day. Best
speakers ever invented IMHO.

**That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Speakers tend to be a
personal choice product. What works for one person, doesn't for another. I
don't like dual concentric speakers. Mind you: I am partial to a properly
executed and set up pair of ESLs.

Good Lord yes. ESLs completely wipe the floor with Tannoys. It's chalk and
cheese.

Graham

Dual concentric
 

In article ,
Eeyore wrote:
I was appalled at the level of disinterest in audio within the 'board'
at Neve. That's one reason I quit after about 3 years as a project
leader. I could see they were heading for failure, and indeed it was so.

Neve produced generally good sounding designs, but the quality of some
components was dreadful. Switches, pots and relays mainly. Often wore out
after about 2 years broadcast use - not what you'd expect from top dollar
prices.

--
*I'm planning to be spontaneous tomorrow *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dual concentric
 

In article ,
Ian Thompson-Bell wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:

Having said that, I can't get excited about any dual concentric
driver I've ever heard. Including the much vaunted Tannoys.


Dunno why. The Tannoy Monitor Gold series are stunning in their stereo
stage management.

Yes - they could produce a stunning sound stage. One of the benefits of a
point source design.

I heard them a lot in UK studios in the 70s and the
only thing that came anywhere near then were the big JBls. We had 15
inch Golds in huge Lockwood cabinets on wheels at Neve for checking the
sound of consoles. I still use a pair of 2 inch Monitor Golds to this
day. Best speakers ever invented IMHO.

But in general I didn't like them. They could never produce natural speech
- too honky by far. IMHO down to the main unit being well out of range at
the top end. I'm not keen on any 15" driver that tries to go above about
300 Hz. I reckon the 12" ones sounded better.

My last permanent work place had Monitor Reds in the studios and dubbing
etc. Didn't like them either. And the Little Red Monitors they used
elsewhere were positively vile.

That's not to say Lockwoods weren't quite good in their day compared to
the opposition as pop monitors. But never in any way accurate.

--
*I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dual concentric
 

Eeyore wrote:

I'm not one for 'doffing my cap' in the usual English defential manner to those who like
to present themselves as my 'betters' who are actually clueless.

I never presented myself as your better - I quite clearly stated that is
was IMHO.


I was appalled at the level of disinterest in audio within the 'board' at Neve. That's
one reason I quit after about 3 years as a project leader. I could see they were heading
for failure, and indeed it was so.


When were you there?

Ian

Dual concentric
 

Eeyore wrote:

Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Ian Thompson-Bell" wrote

I heard them a lot in UK studios in the 70s and the
only thing that came anywhere near then were the big JBls.

Can't have listened to very much then !



You really do have an annoying turn of phrase.

Ian

Dual concentric
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

I was appalled at the level of disinterest in audio within the 'board'
at Neve. That's one reason I quit after about 3 years as a project
leader. I could see they were heading for failure, and indeed it was so.

Neve produced generally good sounding designs, but the quality of some
components was dreadful. Switches, pots and relays mainly.

Funny considering they spent lots of money on pots and relays and stuck with
the same design of switch intentionally for decades.


Often wore out after about 2 years broadcast use - not what you'd expect
from top dollar
prices.

That's an atypical experience.

What console model(s) ?

Graham

Dual concentric
 

Ian Thompson-Bell wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

I'm not one for 'doffing my cap' in the usual English defential manner to those who like
to present themselves as my 'betters' who are actually clueless.

I never presented myself as your better - I quite clearly stated that is
was IMHO.

I was referring to certain people at Neve.


I was appalled at the level of disinterest in audio within the 'board' at Neve. That's
one reason I quit after about 3 years as a project leader. I could see they were heading
for failure, and indeed it was so.

When were you there?

85-88.

Graham

Dual concentric
 

Ian Thompson-Bell wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Ian Thompson-Bell" wrote

I heard them a lot in UK studios in the 70s and the
only thing that came anywhere near then were the big JBls.

Can't have listened to very much then !


You really do have an annoying turn of phrase.

Well ... honestly .... if you're going to claim that Monitor Golds were
great speakers ....

Ever heard any PMCs btw ? Now THEY are worth taking the trouble to go
out of your way to audition.


Graham

Dual concentric
 

In article , Eeyore rabbitsfriendsandrel
scribeth thus


Ian Thompson-Bell wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

I'm not one for 'doffing my cap' in the usual English defential manner to
those who like
to present themselves as my 'betters' who are actually clueless.

I never presented myself as your better - I quite clearly stated that is
was IMHO.

I was referring to certain people at Neve.

Anyone in particular?..



I was appalled at the level of disinterest in audio within the 'board' at
Neve. That's
one reason I quit after about 3 years as a project leader. I could see they
were heading
for failure, and indeed it was so.

When were you there?

85-88.

Graham


--
Tony Sayer

Dual concentric
 

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
Ian Thompson-Bell wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:

Having said that, I can't get excited about any dual concentric
driver I've ever heard. Including the much vaunted Tannoys.


Dunno why. The Tannoy Monitor Gold series are stunning in their stereo
stage management.

Yes - they could produce a stunning sound stage. One of the benefits of a
point source design.

I heard them a lot in UK studios in the 70s and the
only thing that came anywhere near then were the big JBls. We had 15
inch Golds in huge Lockwood cabinets on wheels at Neve for checking the
sound of consoles. I still use a pair of 2 inch Monitor Golds to this
day. Best speakers ever invented IMHO.

But in general I didn't like them. They could never produce natural speech
- too honky by far. IMHO down to the main unit being well out of range at
the top end. I'm not keen on any 15" driver that tries to go above about
300 Hz. I reckon the 12" ones sounded better.

My last permanent work place had Monitor Reds in the studios and dubbing
etc. Didn't like them either. And the Little Red Monitors they used
elsewhere were positively vile.

That's not to say Lockwoods weren't quite good in their day compared to
the opposition as pop monitors. But never in any way accurate.

Yes but they don't want them for accuracy --impression-- is what's
required;)...


--
Tony Sayer

Dual concentric
 

Eeyore wrote:

I was appalled at the level of disinterest in audio within the 'board' at Neve. That's
one reason I quit after about 3 years as a project leader. I could see they were heading
for failure, and indeed it was so.
When were you there?

85-88.


Ah, that explains it. I was there 73-76, different era and different
mind set altogether.

Ian

Dual concentric
 

No course not!.. but there is a very pleasant difference in my car a
10
Y/O old Audi A6 betwixt Mono and Stereo which makes that
worthwhile;!...
--
Tony Sayer



That's what I really meant.

It is surprising when you have a DAB/FM radio in the car and you
switch
between the same station in the different formats (or the radio does
it
itself) how often the FM reception is in mono because the signal
strength is too low - the only advantage of DAB I suppose as it is
always in stereo with good separation if you can hear it.

When it is;(..


ClassicFM and
especially choral show it up inbcredibly well.

Wot abaht the Jazz;?...



--
Tony Sayer




Cos, Tone, theJazz is transmitted in 80K mono ........MONO in this day
and age!!!!


My point exactly mon ami!...

another thing what's wrong with this wonderful DAB ****e radio system!..
--
Tony Sayer

Dual concentric
 

Eeyore wrote:

Ian Thompson-Bell wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Ian Thompson-Bell" wrote

I heard them a lot in UK studios in the 70s and the
only thing that came anywhere near then were the big JBls.
Can't have listened to very much then !

You really do have an annoying turn of phrase.

Well ... honestly .... if you're going to claim that Monitor Golds were
great speakers ....


I am not claiming anything, simply expressing an opinion. You somehow
seem to think that because it differs from yours it is somehow worth less.

Ian

Dual concentric
 

In article , Eeyore
wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

I was appalled at the level of disinterest in audio within the
'board' at Neve. That's one reason I quit after about 3 years as a
project leader. I could see they were heading for failure, and
indeed it was so.

Neve produced generally good sounding designs, but the quality of some
components was dreadful. Switches, pots and relays mainly.

Funny considering they spent lots of money on pots and relays and stuck
with the same design of switch intentionally for decades.

Other makers seemed to have found more reliable switches.


Often wore out after about 2 years broadcast use - not what you'd
expect from top dollar prices.

That's an atypical experience.

What console model(s) ?

I'm not good at remembering model nubers. The range BBC TV first used
(narrow module) at TV centre. The first one in TC3 was deemed unsuitable
for live use after only a few years due to unreliability. While much older
and equally as heavily used desks by both the BBC and commercial suppliers
soldiered on. I'd say that's why the BEEB changed to Calrec.

Teddington Studios had an early 'inline monitoring' unit in the recording
studio. The relays were changed several times and cleaned more often. And
there were a lot of relays.

--
*A cubicle is just a padded cell without a door.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dual concentric
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Eeyore wrote:

I was appalled at the level of disinterest in audio within the
'board' at Neve. That's one reason I quit after about 3 years as a
project leader. I could see they were heading for failure, and
indeed it was so.

Neve produced generally good sounding designs, but the quality of some
components was dreadful. Switches, pots and relays mainly.

Funny considering they spent lots of money on pots and relays and stuck
with the same design of switch intentionally for decades.

Other makers seemed to have found more reliable switches.

You're the first person I know to mention these kinds of problems. I know a
guy who does a lot of Neve service so I'll mention your comments to him.


Often wore out after about 2 years broadcast use - not what you'd
expect from top dollar prices.

That's an atypical experience.

What console model(s) ?

I'm not good at remembering model nubers. The range BBC TV first used
(narrow module) at TV centre. The first one in TC3 was deemed unsuitable
for live use after only a few years due to unreliability. While much older
and equally as heavily used desks by both the BBC and commercial suppliers
soldiered on. I'd say that's why the BEEB changed to Calrec.

Teddington Studios had an early 'inline monitoring' unit in the recording
studio. The relays were changed several times and cleaned more often. And
there were a lot of relays.

Care to put a rough date on this ?

Graham

Dual concentric
 

In article ,
Eeyore wrote:
Other makers seemed to have found more reliable switches.

You're the first person I know to mention these kinds of problems. I
know a guy who does a lot of Neve service so I'll mention your comments
to him.

I'd say he's more than happy with the situation. ;-)

Often wore out after about 2 years broadcast use - not what you'd
expect from top dollar prices.

That's an atypical experience.

What console model(s) ?

I'm not good at remembering model nubers. The range BBC TV first used
(narrow module) at TV centre. The first one in TC3 was deemed
unsuitable for live use after only a few years due to unreliability.
While much older and equally as heavily used desks by both the BBC and
commercial suppliers soldiered on. I'd say that's why the BEEB changed
to Calrec.

Teddington Studios had an early 'inline monitoring' unit in the
recording studio. The relays were changed several times and cleaned
more often. And there were a lot of relays.

Care to put a rough date on this ?

The BEEB desks went in early '70s. The Teddington Studios one I referred
to bought for the New London Theatre installation in the late '70s - then
moved to the recording studio. Where it was lovingly cared for and had
only moderate use. Was sold for a small fortune after Thames sold the
studios.

--
*Why do they put Braille on the drive-through bank machines?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dual concentric
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
Ian Thompson-Bell wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:

Having said that, I can't get excited about any dual concentric
driver I've ever heard. Including the much vaunted Tannoys.


Dunno why. The Tannoy Monitor Gold series are stunning in their stereo
stage management.

Yes - they could produce a stunning sound stage. One of the benefits of a
point source design.

I heard them a lot in UK studios in the 70s and the
only thing that came anywhere near then were the big JBls. We had 15
inch Golds in huge Lockwood cabinets on wheels at Neve for checking the
sound of consoles. I still use a pair of 2 inch Monitor Golds to this
day. Best speakers ever invented IMHO.

But in general I didn't like them. They could never produce natural speech
- too honky by far. IMHO down to the main unit being well out of range at
the top end. I'm not keen on any 15" driver that tries to go above about
300 Hz. I reckon the 12" ones sounded better.

My last permanent work place had Monitor Reds in the studios and dubbing
etc. Didn't like them either. And the Little Red Monitors they used
elsewhere were positively vile.

That's not to say Lockwoods weren't quite good in their day compared to
the opposition as pop monitors. But never in any way accurate.

Yes but they don't want them for accuracy --impression-- is what's
required;)...


:-)

Dual concentric
 

"Woody" wrote in message
...

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Woody
scribeth thus

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrel
scribeth thus


Woody wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote

It occurred to me when fitting some new car speakers that a dual
concentric design would be ideal for this use. But they all seem
to
have
tweeters just stuck on the front. Any reason why this design has
fallen
out of favour?

**Perhaps people have finally discovered what I found a few
decades
ago: They sound like ****. Given that midrange frequencies are
being
bounced off the back of the tweeter, the result ends up sounding
like
a pig's breakfast. I've never heard a decent dual concentric car
speaker. Perhaps it's due to the shockingly bad crossovers used.
Maybe
it's just the cheap, crappy drivers.


Also perhaps to do with the fact that the stereo 'information' is
carried by the higher frequencies which are lost in the carpet and
seats
in most cars so many manufacturers have gone for seperate mid-high
speakers (not just tweeters) in the ends of the dash or the top
corners
of the doors. It also means that they can then fit lower quality
speakers that do not need to handle full range in the doors and get
what
the punter perceives to be better quality (i.e. more bass.)

You didn't seriously imagine that it's possible to get a proper stereo
image
in a car did you?

Graham


No course not!.. but there is a very pleasant difference in my car a
10
Y/O old Audi A6 betwixt Mono and Stereo which makes that
worthwhile;!...
--
Tony Sayer



That's what I really meant.

It is surprising when you have a DAB/FM radio in the car and you switch
between the same station in the different formats (or the radio does it
itself) how often the FM reception is in mono because the signal
strength is too low - the only advantage of DAB I suppose as it is
always in stereo with good separation if you can hear it.

When it is;(..


ClassicFM and
especially choral show it up inbcredibly well.

Wot abaht the Jazz;?...



--
Tony Sayer




Cos, Tone, theJazz is transmitted in 80K mono ........MONO in this day and
age!!!!


Mono Jazz?

I wonder if I\'ve got any Jazz albums that *aren\'t* mono....???

Dual concentric
 

Hi Ian

I am not claiming anything, simply expressing an opinion. You somehow
seem to think that because it differs from yours it is somehow worth less.

Well, for what its worth I agree with you, but then we are the same
age. so maybe our hearing is up the shoot!

Still for my sixpenny worth, I have never heard a speaker that matches
the soundstage of big Tannoys. That\'s why I shelled out my hard earned
on a pair of Tannoy Yorks recently.

Maybe the voices \'honk\' but I don\'t hear that!

Regards

David

Dual concentric
 

In article , David Houpt
scribeth thus

Hi Ian

I am not claiming anything, simply expressing an opinion. You somehow
seem to think that because it differs from yours it is somehow worth less.

Well, for what its worth I agree with you, but then we are the same
age. so maybe our hearing is up the shoot!

Still for my sixpenny worth, I have never heard a speaker that matches
the soundstage of big Tannoys. That\'s why I shelled out my hard earned
on a pair of Tannoy Yorks recently.

Maybe the voices \'honk\' but I don\'t hear that!

Regards

David

But then again most "voice" is from the Radio, and that especially from
the digital BBC leaves a bit or two to be desired;!...
--
Tony Sayer