"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...

You can't have it both ways, sonny. You claim the Quad 405 is a model
of efficiency. Then you tell us that in strenous use the huge Quad 405
heat sink does not get warm. Therefore the heatsink is overspecified
and the amp is not efficient. An efficient amp would use its heatsink
more efficiently.

Yes he can. From an electrical (electronic) engineering point of view,
the amp is obviously efficient as it isn't pumping out heat. From a
production
engineering point of view it is inefficient as it could have been made a few
dollars cheaper with a smaller hotter heat sink. Personally my sympathies
are with the electrical engineering side and I would have thought that yours
would be too.

Keith

In article ,
keithr wrote:

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...

You can't have it both ways, sonny. You claim the Quad 405 is a model
of efficiency. Then you tell us that in strenous use the huge Quad 405
heat sink does not get warm. Therefore the heatsink is overspecified
and the amp is not efficient. An efficient amp would use its heatsink
more efficiently.

Yes he can. From an electrical (electronic) engineering point of view,
the amp is obviously efficient as it isn't pumping out heat. From a
production engineering point of view it is inefficient as it could have
been made a few dollars cheaper with a smaller hotter heat sink.

The heat sink is part of the case which sort of determines the size and is
part of the visual appeal of the design.

Personally my sympathies are with the electrical engineering side and I
would have thought that yours would be too.

Only when it suits his argument of the moment. ;-)

--
*Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...
On Jan 24, 9:02 am, "David Looser"
wrote:

I see you are quick to resort to "strawman" arguments, no surprise there.
In
any case your logic is flawed, if an amplifier is efficient it wastes
less
energy in the form of heat, so needs less in the way of heatsinking.

You can't have it both ways, sonny. You claim the Quad 405 is a model
of efficiency. Then you tell us that in strenous use the huge Quad 405
heat sink does not get warm. Therefore the heatsink is overspecified
and the amp is not efficient. An efficient amp would use its heatsink
more efficiently.

Listen, sonny, you originally mentioned the heatsink in an apparent attempt
to prove that the 405 was electrically inefficient because it needed a big
heatsink. Now, having failed to do that, you are trying to save face by
using the word in a entirely different sense. Your weaselling does not
impress me for a moment. As you yourself mentioned an overspecified heatsink
helps with long-term reliability, but my point about appearance is also
true, looks do matter commercially for any HiFi product. Also that heatsink
is a major structural component of the amp, if it wasn't there some other
structural element would be needed to replace it which would not necessarily
be significantly cheaper.

I'm just illustrating the futility of your weaseling, Looser. Me, I
prefer my Quad 405 just like it is; that big heatsink is a factor in
its longevity, a very worthwhile form of efficiency to me -- but that
isn't what David is talking about.

Not what *you* were talking about you mean. You were the one who dragged the
heatsink into this argument.


Man, if you have to worry about the cost of a quad of 300B every
fifteen years, you can't afford a transistor amp, never mind a 300B.
Your arguments are getting more and more ridiculous.

Who's talking about "worrying about the cost"? Is this another tangent you
are going off on in a desperate attempt to "win"?

In real life, anyone with a PSE 300B also has other amps,

A very interesting comment. Why isn't a PSE300B good enough on it's own?

I have a set of WE 300B
with 14K hours which are just nicely burned in.

If you say so.


If 1/3rd of a watt drives Lowther horns "to ecstasy", then an alternative
design of 1/3rd watt amp will do so more efficiently. This is still no
justification for claiming that SET amps are "small". Small amps are
small.

The Marxists

Pardon?, is your definition of a "Marxist" - "someone who has the effrontery
to argue with the great Andre Jute"?

are alive and well and living in David Looser's head. Of
course there is always a more efficient or smaller component available
or just round the corner. That doesn't make a component that is
efficient relative to relevant competitive components suddenly
inefficient.

But then SETs are not "efficient relative to relevant competitive
components" at all. On the contrary they are inefficient "relative to
relevant competitive components". Competitive components are those with a
similar power output. You seem to want to compare apples with oranges, or
low powered SETs with much more powerful amps of alternative architectures.

And small SETs are small, too, once you have the right perspective.
But I doubt you will ever get it.

Oh wow! "the right persepective", I can guess what that means.

You anti-SET fanatics are even less rational and consistent than the
audiophools who think a SET is the be-all and end-all of quality
sound. Neither is interested in listening to reason, or capable of
understanding that all such choices are subject to qualification.

I'm really not that interested in SET amps either way. I just get
****ed-off
by people trying to justify their own prejudices by making nonsensical
comparisons.


I shall let you have the last word. You've been a disappointment to
me, David Looser.

I can well understand that you are disappointed to find that I am not taken
in by your bull****.

David.

On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 11:51:15 -0000, "David Looser"
wrote:

I can well understand that you are disappointed to find that I am not taken
in by your bull****.

David.


David, please just killfile him. He is a failure with delusions of
adequacy.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

On Jan 25, 3:36*am, "keithr" wrote:
"Andre Jute" wrote in message

...

You can't have it both ways, sonny. You claim the Quad 405 is a model
of efficiency. Then you tell us that in strenous use the huge Quad 405
heat sink does not get warm. Therefore the heatsink is overspecified
and the amp is not efficient. An efficient amp would use its heatsink
more efficiently.

Yes he can. From an electrical (electronic) engineering point of view,
the amp is obviously efficient as it isn't pumping out heat. From a
production
engineering point of view it is inefficient as it could have been made a few
dollars cheaper with a smaller hotter heat sink. Personally my sympathies
are with the electrical engineering side and I would have thought that yours
would be too.

Keith

Gee, that's a very convenient place you snipped my text, for in the
very next paragraph I say that I too choose the electrical engineering
side:

I'm just illustrating the futility of your weaseling, Looser. Me, I
prefer my Quad 405 just like it is; that big heatsink is a factor in
its longevity, a very worthwhile form of efficiency to me

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

On Jan 25, 10:01*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article ,
* *keithr wrote:

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...
You can't have it both ways, sonny. You claim the Quad 405 is a model
of efficiency. Then you tell us that in strenous use the huge Quad 405
heat sink does not get warm. Therefore the heatsink is overspecified
and the amp is not efficient. An efficient amp would use its heatsink
more efficiently.
Yes he can. From an electrical (electronic) engineering point of view,
the amp is obviously efficient as it isn't pumping out heat. From a
production engineering point of view it is inefficient as it could have
been made a few dollars cheaper with a smaller hotter heat sink.

The heat sink is part of the case which sort of determines the size and is
part of the visual appeal of the design.

Personally my sympathies are with the electrical engineering side and I
would have thought that yours would be too.

Only when it suits his argument of the moment. ;-)

Yup. Those of use with the sense to own Quad 405 Mk II can make that
argument at every moment for a quarter-century (at least), as I did in
the very next par that Keith snipped in order for his point to appear
temporarily valid: "Me, I prefer my Quad 405 just like it is; that big
heatsink is a factor in its longevity, a very worthwhile form of
efficiency to me."

--
*Friends help you move. *Real friends help you move bodies.

True friends understand when you have to drop them off. Goodbye,
Plowie, you've outlived your usefulness.

* * Dave Plowman * * * * * * * * London SW
* * * * * * * * * To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Andre Jute
Listening to Bach's Cantata 199, My Heart Swims in Blood -- and so it
bloody well should

In article
,
Andre Jute wrote:
The heat sink is part of the case which sort of determines the size
and is part of the visual appeal of the design.

Personally my sympathies are with the electrical engineering side
and I would have thought that yours would be too.

Only when it suits his argument of the moment. ;-)

Yup. Those of use with the sense to own Quad 405 Mk II can make that
argument at every moment for a quarter-century (at least), as I did in
the very next par that Keith snipped in order for his point to appear
temporarily valid: "Me, I prefer my Quad 405 just like it is; that big
heatsink is a factor in its longevity, a very worthwhile form of
efficiency to me."

--
*Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

True friends understand when you have to drop them off. Goodbye,
Plowie, you've outlived your usefulness.

Oh. Another who wants acolytes. Doesn't seem to be working.


Andre Jute
Listening to Bach's Cantata 199, My Heart Swims in Blood -- and so it
bloody well should

Wonder by that what normally flows in your heart?

--
*If only you'd use your powers for good instead of evil.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Andre Jute
Listening to Bach's Cantata 199, My Heart Swims in Blood -- and so it
bloody well should


Indeed!.. And a fine performance by the late very great Ms Hunt Liberson
who I had the privilege of hearing at the proms a few years ago now.

And now sadly gone before her time thanks to what we all enjoy but
endlessly argue over is still here).....


http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Rec...-Craig-C03.jpg
--
Tony Sayer

On Jan 26, 10:02 am, tony sayer wrote:
Andre Jute
Listening to Bach's Cantata 199, My Heart Swims in Blood -- and so it
bloody well should

Indeed!.. And a fine performance by the late very great Ms Hunt Liberson
who I had the privilege of hearing at the proms a few years ago now.

And we should occassionally remember to raise our glasses to the the
recording engineers as well...

And now sadly gone before her time thanks to what we all enjoy but
endlessly argue over is still here).....

As C. Bartoli said a few years ago after I announced that I'd already
invented enough witty stuff she woulda wanted to say to fill my
column, so we could immediately get down to what really matters, "You
brought more of that super chocolate!"

http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Pic-Rec...-Craig-C03.jpg

Thanks for the tip, Tony. I don't have that one but that is easily
remedied.

--

The BWV 199 I mentioned was added because it is on a disc featuring
the countertenor Andreas Scholl, a favourite of mine, with the
excellent Barbara Schlick. Or I might just have added it because my
habit through the 90s was to prefer the disc from the Harmonia Mundi
label, or anything distributed by HM (this particular disc is on
Auvidis, distributed by HM), unless the alternative was by a known-
good artist. Whoever was in charge at HM during the years I built up
the major part of my collection was either too godawfully lucky to fit
any know statistical format or had the most enviable taste. In Bach
cantata getting me to deviate from the Ton Koopman complete set on
Erato (which anyway also has the ubiquitous Barbara Schlick), or
duplicating part of, is a hard job, but Scholl will always tempt me...

Tony Sayer

Andre Jute
Music lovers before audiophiles

On Jan 26, 9:25*am, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article
,
* *Andre Jute wrote:

*Friends help you move. *Real friends help you move bodies.
True friends understand when you have to drop them off. Goodbye,
Plowie, you've outlived your usefulness.

Oh. Another who wants acolytes. Doesn't seem to be working.

Don't be like that, Dave. It's nothing personal, just pleasure. I've
replaced you with a nubile who plays an instrument and has a novel
under construction, whom I introduce to my literary friends as "my
musical protege" (because they know she can't write worth ****) and to
my musical friends as "my literary protege" (because they know she
can't play worth ****) and to my family as "your new niece" (because
they know better already). Take your shirt off in front of the mirror,
Dave, and ask yourself why I shouldn't prefer an, er, acolyte. Hey,
thanks for the word though. So much less hackneyed than "niece".

Andre Jute
Listening to Bach's Cantata 199, My Heart Swims in Blood -- and so it
bloody well should

Wonder by that what normally flows in your heart?

Your German is slipping. This is about flows around the heart. Of
course, I'm all heart, so inside and outside is the same.

Ciao, Dave. It was educational knowing a bionic man. My your
transistors never transist.

Andre Jute
Too sensitive for this world