Small is also beautiful. The small is the genesis of the large.

It's funny that some cannot grasp this fundamental concept with single
ended triode (SET) amps. We routinely build preamps and voltage
multipliciton stages of triodes operating single-ended, and the
diehards who with a convulsive kneejerks reject any amp without a push-
pull power stage will be the last to let go of the single-ended gain
stage, yet they cannot see that the small signal stage is a template
for the sweetest power stage.

What is sauce of quail must be sauce for the goose and the gander too.

Very difficult to understand how some people think.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

Small is also beautiful. The small is the genesis of the large.

It's funny that some cannot grasp this fundamental concept with
single
ended triode (SET) amps. We routinely build preamps and voltage
multiplication stages of triodes operating single-ended, and the
diehards who with a convulsive kneejerk reject any amp without a
push-
pull power stage will be the last to let go of the single-ended gain
stage, yet they cannot see that the small signal stage is a template
for the sweetest power stage.

What is sauce of quail must be sauce for the goose and the gander
too.

Very difficult to understand how some people think.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

Andre Jute wrote:
Small is also beautiful. The small is the genesis of the large.


Don't know about that. Schumpeter argued (in an analysis of western
capitalism) that economics measures well-being by the standard of living
(variously, average incomes and consumption). This is best achieved by
maximising production and consumption. Buddhism (his 'foil' and the
basis of the small thesis) does not measure well being as such, but
consider that it is maximised when consumption is minimised. Basically
this means that well being is not dependent on consumption – the ‘given
ends’ (a difficult concept, granted, but take it as live in comfort
perhaps) with the minimum means. An example might be hifi – why do we
need all this stuff?! Large is a sort of antithesis, not genesis.

It's funny that some cannot grasp this fundamental concept with
single
ended triode (SET) amps. We routinely build preamps and voltage
multiplication stages of triodes operating single-ended, and the
diehards who with a convulsive kneejerk reject any amp without a
push-
pull power stage will be the last to let go of the single-ended gain
stage, yet they cannot see that the small signal stage is a template
for the sweetest power stage.

What is sauce of quail must be sauce for the goose and the gander
too.

Very difficult to understand how some people think.


indeed :-)

Rob

"Rob" wrote in message
...
Andre Jute wrote:
Small is also beautiful. The small is the genesis of the large.


Don't know about that. Schumpeter argued (in an analysis of western
capitalism) that economics measures well-being by the standard of living
(variously, average incomes and consumption). This is best achieved by
maximising production and consumption. Buddhism (his 'foil' and the basis
of the small thesis) does not measure well being as such, but consider
that it is maximised when consumption is minimised. Basically this means
that well being is not dependent on consumption – the ‘given ends’ (a
difficult concept, granted, but take it as live in comfort perhaps) with
the minimum means. An example might be hifi – why do we need all this
stuff?! Large is a sort of antithesis, not genesis.


Indeed, though I'm not sure that can be seen as a reason for using SET
amplifiers. Their output power may be small, but as they are so inefficient
their power consumption isn't. And the permanent dissatisfaction with what
one already has (which is the basis of the audiophile philosophy) is the
antithesis of the Schumpeter ideal. My Quad 405 may be "large", in the sense
that it has an output power significantly greater than I really need, but it
probably draws less energy from the mains than a SET amplifier does.
Furthermore it has powered my main audio system for over 25 years without
needing any replacement parts, so in terms of the energy used in manufacture
and transport it has had a fairly low impact on the planet.

David.

On Jan 22, 5:03 pm, "David Looser"
wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message

...

Andre Jute wrote:
Small is also beautiful. The small is the genesis of the large.

Don't know about that. Schumpeter argued (in an analysis of western
capitalism) that economics measures well-being by the standard of living
(variously, average incomes and consumption). This is best achieved by
maximising production and consumption. Buddhism (his 'foil' and the basis
of the small thesis) does not measure well being as such, but consider
that it is maximised when consumption is minimised. Basically this means
that well being is not dependent on consumption - the 'given ends' (a
difficult concept, granted, but take it as live in comfort perhaps) with
the minimum means. An example might be hifi - why do we need all this
stuff?! Large is a sort of antithesis, not genesis.

Indeed, though I'm not sure that can be seen as a reason for using SET
amplifiers. Their output power may be small, but as they are so inefficient
their power consumption isn't. And the permanent dissatisfaction with what
one already has (which is the basis of the audiophile philosophy) is the
antithesis of the Schumpeter ideal. My Quad 405 may be "large", in the sense
that it has an output power significantly greater than I really need, but it
probably draws less energy from the mains than a SET amplifier does.
Furthermore it has powered my main audio system for over 25 years without
needing any replacement parts, so in terms of the energy used in manufacture
and transport it has had a fairly low impact on the planet.

David.

Mmm. I too have a 405 which has given sterling service. If it is so
efficient, I wonder why Peter Walker, not notably a waster, included
that large, expensive heatsink at the back.

I have a PSE 300B amp that cost about 1600 Euro to build, about the
price of a modern equivalent of the Quad 405 MkII. It's lasted fifteen
years. It consumes about 120W for stereo. That's *less* draw at full
power than the Quad 405 MkII. A smaller SE 300B amp consumes about 50W
for stereo and just idles along with horns but the 405 must draw down
more than the SE amp to drive ESL-63 to the same SPL as the 300B
drives the horns.

But the amazing thing here isn't your carelessness with the numbers
but the hubris of telling me how your flavour of an obscenely
expensive hobby is saving he planet! The only reason I'm not sarcastic
about it is that your flavour, the Quad 405, is also one of my
flavours.

Andre Jute
Catholic tastes

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...

Mmm. I too have a 405 which has given sterling service. If it is so
efficient, I wonder why Peter Walker, not notably a waster, included
that large, expensive heatsink at the back.

I've no idea, perhaps it looks nice. Even when used as part of a stage PA
rig for an amateur musical (driving Bose SR speakers) it barely got warm to
the touch.

I have a PSE 300B amp that cost about 1600 Euro to build, about the
price of a modern equivalent of the Quad 405 MkII. It's lasted fifteen
years.

And how many new valves has it needed in that time?

It consumes about 120W for stereo. That's *less* draw at full
power than the Quad 405 MkII.

And for just how much of the time is a domestic HiFi amp used at anything
even remotely near full power? The 405 and 44 pre-amp together consumes 35W
most of the time, occasionally flicking up to around 50W or so on the
loudest passages whilst driving my Tannoys.

smaller SE 300B amp consumes about 50W
for stereo and just idles along with horns but the 405 must draw down
more than the SE amp to drive ESL-63 to the same SPL as the 300B
drives the horns.

Ah! you give different goal-posts to the two I see. A 405 must drive
ESL-63s, whilst the SET amp can be allowed horns. That's a comparison
between ESLs and horns, not between SETs and the 405.

But the amazing thing here isn't your carelessness with the numbers

I think I've pointed out that it's you who are being careless with numbers.

but the hubris of telling me how your flavour of an obscenely
expensive hobby is saving he planet!

Hey! you started it with your inane suggestion that SET amps somehow or
other fit the "small is beautiful" philosophy.

David.

In article
s.com, Andre Jute scribeth thus
On Jan 22, 5:03 pm, "David Looser"
wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message

...

Andre Jute wrote:
Small is also beautiful. The small is the genesis of the large.

Don't know about that. Schumpeter argued (in an analysis of western
capitalism) that economics measures well-being by the standard of living
(variously, average incomes and consumption). This is best achieved by
maximising production and consumption. Buddhism (his 'foil' and the basis
of the small thesis) does not measure well being as such, but consider
that it is maximised when consumption is minimised. Basically this means
that well being is not dependent on consumption - the 'given ends' (a
difficult concept, granted, but take it as live in comfort perhaps) with
the minimum means. An example might be hifi - why do we need all this
stuff?! Large is a sort of antithesis, not genesis.

Indeed, though I'm not sure that can be seen as a reason for using SET
amplifiers. Their output power may be small, but as they are so inefficient
their power consumption isn't. And the permanent dissatisfaction with what
one already has (which is the basis of the audiophile philosophy) is the
antithesis of the Schumpeter ideal. My Quad 405 may be "large", in the sense
that it has an output power significantly greater than I really need, but it
probably draws less energy from the mains than a SET amplifier does.
Furthermore it has powered my main audio system for over 25 years without
needing any replacement parts, so in terms of the energy used in manufacture
and transport it has had a fairly low impact on the planet.

David.

Mmm. I too have a 405 which has given sterling service. If it is so
efficient, I wonder why Peter Walker, not notably a waster, included
that large, expensive heatsink at the back.

Prolly as their products went world-wide aimed for hotter climes?..

--
Tony Sayer

in article
, Andre
Jute at wrote on 1/22/08 8:19 AM:

Small is also beautiful. The small is the genesis of the large.

It's funny that some cannot grasp this fundamental concept with
single
ended triode (SET) amps. We routinely build preamps and voltage
multiplication stages of triodes operating single-ended, and the
diehards who with a convulsive kneejerk reject any amp without a
push-
pull power stage will be the last to let go of the single-ended gain
stage, yet they cannot see that the small signal stage is a template
for the sweetest power stage.

What is sauce of quail must be sauce for the goose and the gander
too.

Very difficult to understand how some people think.


Indeed. Not being a narcissist, I can't quite grasp your thinking, either.

Regardless of how one feels about SET amps, the reasoning you offer is
flawed.

Input and output stages differ greatly in terms of gain and power. What
works well at the input isn't the same at the output, only with "more
power." There are very different design goals at each end.

For a very rough analogy, think about an automobile's power train. What
happens at the crankshaft is different from what happens at the axle. Think
of what a transmission does. Think of the forces (in terms of torque) along
the way. Different design parameters at each end as well . . .

Jon

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...
Small is also beautiful. The small is the genesis of the large.

It's funny that some cannot grasp this fundamental concept with
single
ended triode (SET) amps. We routinely build preamps and voltage
multiplication stages of triodes operating single-ended, and the
diehards who with a convulsive kneejerk reject any amp without a
push-
pull power stage will be the last to let go of the single-ended gain
stage, yet they cannot see that the small signal stage is a template
for the sweetest power stage.

What is sauce of quail must be sauce for the goose and the gander
too.

Very difficult to understand how some people think.

**Speak for yourself. The best valve preamps I've ever heard are push pull
(Alan Wright's fabulous balanced preamps spring to mind). Having said that,
it is important to understand that _if_ a SE stage delivers inaudible levels
of distortion and the load is resistive (which it pretty much is, within
preamps), then there is no real problem. The problem with SE amplifiers is
when they are burdened by output transformers. The massive DC flux within
the transformer causes all sorts of problems, requiring heroic and
completely silly solutions. Solutions which can be found simply, cheaply and
easily by implementing that old idea of push pull.

Trevor Wilson

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
...
Small is also beautiful. The small is the genesis of the large.

It's funny that some cannot grasp this fundamental concept with
single
ended triode (SET) amps. We routinely build preamps and voltage
multiplication stages of triodes operating single-ended, and the
diehards who with a convulsive kneejerk reject any amp without a
push-
pull power stage will be the last to let go of the single-ended gain
stage, yet they cannot see that the small signal stage is a template
for the sweetest power stage.

What is sauce of quail must be sauce for the goose and the gander
too.

Very difficult to understand how some people think.

**Speak for yourself. The best valve preamps I've ever heard are push pull
(Alan Wright's fabulous balanced preamps spring to mind).

And those pre-war WE cinema amplifiers that were referred to in another
thread had one or two stages of push-pull amplification before the output
stage. But then they were money-no-object designs, designed to produce the
best performance possible with the technology of their time.


David.