David Looser wrote:

"Glenn Richards" wrote
David Looser wrote:

opinions are divided on this group but it does make a difference.
I love that!, "opinion is divided, but I'm right"

Heh, ok, posting written rather quickly... but you get the idea.

In your opinion of course.

In my experience, yes, speaker cables do make a difference to the sound.
As do interconnects to some extent.

But can you hear the difference when you don't know which cables you are
listening to?, that's the question.

Can you hear +/- 1dB ? or +/- 0.5dB ?

I can assure you some people have NO trouble doing so.

Graham

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


David Looser wrote:

"Glenn Richards" wrote
David Looser wrote:

opinions are divided on this group but it does make a difference.
I love that!, "opinion is divided, but I'm right"

Heh, ok, posting written rather quickly... but you get the idea.

In your opinion of course.

In my experience, yes, speaker cables do make a difference to the
sound.
As do interconnects to some extent.

But can you hear the difference when you don't know which cables you are
listening to?, that's the question.

Can you hear +/- 1dB ? or +/- 0.5dB ?

I can assure you some people have NO trouble doing so.

Graham

Rather depends on frequency, level and whether you're listening to tones,
noise or programme. It will also depend on whether the +-1dB or +-0.5dB
change is across the band, i.e. a level change or, say, at 10kHz, where is
would have the effect of a tone control. +-1dB change on programme is pretty
difficult, but some would manage it, +-0.5dB is tougher still, and most
wouldn't manage it on most programme material.

S.


--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


David Looser wrote:

"Glenn Richards" wrote
David Looser wrote:

opinions are divided on this group but it does make a difference.
I love that!, "opinion is divided, but I'm right"

Heh, ok, posting written rather quickly... but you get the idea.

In your opinion of course.

In my experience, yes, speaker cables do make a difference to the
sound.
As do interconnects to some extent.

But can you hear the difference when you don't know which cables you are
listening to?, that's the question.

Can you hear +/- 1dB ? or +/- 0.5dB ?

I can assure you some people have NO trouble doing so.

Graham

Rather depends on frequency, level and whether you're listening to tones,
noise or programme. It will also depend on whether the +-1dB or +-0.5dB
change is across the band, i.e. a level change or, say, at 10kHz, where is
would have the effect of a tone control. +-1dB change on programme is
pretty difficult, but some would manage it, +-0.5dB is tougher still, and
most wouldn't manage it on most programme material.


Indeed, Graham's original question: "Can you hear +/- 1dB ? or +/- 0.5dB" is
meaningless unless qualified with all sorts of other information.

I would have no trouble hearing the change as a 1dB gain or loss is switched
into a circuit carrying tone or a continuous musical note, but if Graham is
claiming that he can listen to a programme, leave the room for 30 seconds
and when he returns be able to say if the level had been changed by 1dB in
his absence then I would be very sceptical.

Or if we are talking about a frequency response change it will of course
depend a great deal on where in frequency terms that change occurs, how much
of the band is affected, what the spectral content of the programme is etc.
And again if anyone claims that he could detect when re-entering the room
whether this change was made when he was out of the room I would be very
sceptical.

It seems to me that we are in the same area as with those who claim to be
able to hear the difference between expensive and cheap wire. It's easy to
claim that you can hear this or that, but doing so under double blind
conditions is a whole different ball-game.

David.

David Looser wrote:

"Serge Auckland" wrote
"Eeyore" wrote
David Looser wrote
"Glenn Richards" wrote
David Looser wrote:

opinions are divided on this group but it does make a difference.
I love that!, "opinion is divided, but I'm right"

Heh, ok, posting written rather quickly... but you get the idea.

In your opinion of course.

In my experience, yes, speaker cables do make a difference to the
sound. As do interconnects to some extent.

But can you hear the difference when you don't know which cables you are
listening to?, that's the question.

Can you hear +/- 1dB ? or +/- 0.5dB ?

I can assure you some people have NO trouble doing so.

Rather depends on frequency, level and whether you're listening to tones,
noise or programme.

Programme. Sorry not to make that clear.


It will also depend on whether the +-1dB or +-0.5dB
change is across the band, i.e. a level change or, say, at 10kHz, where is
would have the effect of a tone control. +-1dB change on programme is
pretty difficult, but some would manage it, +-0.5dB is tougher still, and
most wouldn't manage it on most programme material.

Indeed, Graham's original question: "Can you hear +/- 1dB ? or +/- 0.5dB" is
meaningless unless qualified with all sorts of other information.

Sounds like a get out clause to me. I mean +/- 1 dB over the audio band. As
might be created by a cable / amplifier / loudspeaker interaction.


I would have no trouble hearing the change as a 1dB gain or loss is switched
into a circuit carrying tone or a continuous musical note, but if Graham is
claiming that he can listen to a programme, leave the room for 30 seconds
and when he returns be able to say if the level had been changed by 1dB in
his absence then I would be very sceptical.

I didn't say LEVEL. Although I have matched level on a tape machine 'line-up'
test BLIND to +/- 0.3dB. One track was within 0.1 dB.


Or if we are talking about a frequency response change it will of course
depend a great deal on where in frequency terms that change occurs, how much
of the band is affected, what the spectral content of the programme is etc.
And again if anyone claims that he could detect when re-entering the room
whether this change was made when he was out of the room I would be very
sceptical.

It seems to me that we are in the same area as with those who claim to be
able to hear the difference between expensive and cheap wire. It's easy to
claim that you can hear this or that, but doing so under double blind
conditions is a whole different ball-game.

Pontificate, pontificate, pontificate.

Either you can hear it it or you can't.

My eyesight isn't totally brilliant. I make no special claims for it. How's your
hearing ?

Graham

Serge Auckland wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
David Looser wrote:
"Glenn Richards" wrote
David Looser wrote:

opinions are divided on this group but it does make a difference.
I love that!, "opinion is divided, but I'm right"

Heh, ok, posting written rather quickly... but you get the idea.

In your opinion of course.

In my experience, yes, speaker cables do make a difference to the
sound. As do interconnects to some extent.

But can you hear the difference when you don't know which cables you are
listening to?, that's the question.

Can you hear +/- 1dB ? or +/- 0.5dB ?

I can assure you some people have NO trouble doing so.

Rather depends on frequency, level and whether you're listening to tones,
noise or programme. It will also depend on whether the +-1dB or +-0.5dB
change is across the band, i.e. a level change or, say, at 10kHz, where is
would have the effect of a tone control. +-1dB change on programme is pretty
difficult, but some would manage it, +-0.5dB is tougher still, and most
wouldn't manage it on most programme material.

I would broadly agree but you ought to try the +/- 1dB test yourself before
becoming too dogmatic.

Explains the 'golden ears' thing though.

I do believe that on extended listening I've heard - 0.3dB @ 20kHz. I was
younger then of course.

Graham

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Serge Auckland wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
David Looser wrote:
"Glenn Richards" wrote
David Looser wrote:

opinions are divided on this group but it does make a difference.
I love that!, "opinion is divided, but I'm right"

Heh, ok, posting written rather quickly... but you get the idea.

In your opinion of course.

In my experience, yes, speaker cables do make a difference to the
sound. As do interconnects to some extent.

But can you hear the difference when you don't know which cables you
are
listening to?, that's the question.

Can you hear +/- 1dB ? or +/- 0.5dB ?

I can assure you some people have NO trouble doing so.

Rather depends on frequency, level and whether you're listening to
tones,
noise or programme. It will also depend on whether the +-1dB or +-0.5dB
change is across the band, i.e. a level change or, say, at 10kHz, where
is
would have the effect of a tone control. +-1dB change on programme is
pretty
difficult, but some would manage it, +-0.5dB is tougher still, and most
wouldn't manage it on most programme material.

I would broadly agree but you ought to try the +/- 1dB test yourself
before
becoming too dogmatic.

Explains the 'golden ears' thing though.

I do believe that on extended listening I've heard - 0.3dB @ 20kHz. I was
younger then of course.

Graham

In a way I do, almost every time I use my Hi-Fi. My Meridian-based system
has the volume control as part of the loudspeakers, and the steps are 1dB at
the levels I listen at. (I think but haven't measured that they get further
apart as volume goes down, and closer together at very high volumes, but at
the volume I listen at, they are ~1dB apart as measured on my Sound Level
Meter)

Adjusting the volume by 1 step isn't readily perceptible. I think I can hear
a difference, but as I've just made the change, that's not surprising. I
certainly couldn't step out of the room and return and tell a 1dB difference
on programme. Two steps seems to be the minimum I can tell readily, although
even here, I don't think I could step out of the room and return and say the
volume has changed. 3dB seems the minimum to tell readily there's been a
change.

Similarly, with tone changes, the Meridians have treble and bass shelving in
1dB steps, and a 1dB change is imperceptible, 2dB in the treble and 3dB in
the bass becomes noticeable, boost more readily noticeable than cut.

It is possible, however, that I am rather less sensitive to level change
than others, so I would not be dogmatic that because I can't hear it, others
can't either. On the other hand, I'm extremely sensitive to stereo
positioning, a 1dB difference in loudness between L and R moves the image
enough to be irritating.

S.



--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

In article , Serge
Auckland
wrote:


In a way I do, almost every time I use my Hi-Fi. My Meridian-based
system has the volume control as part of the loudspeakers, and the
steps are 1dB at the levels I listen at.
[snip]

Adjusting the volume by 1 step isn't readily perceptible. I think I can
hear a difference, but as I've just made the change, that's not
surprising. I certainly couldn't step out of the room and return and
tell a 1dB difference on programme. Two steps seems to be the minimum I
can tell readily, although even here, I don't think I could step out of
the room and return and say the volume has changed. 3dB seems the
minimum to tell readily there's been a change.

Similarly, with tone changes, the Meridians have treble and bass
shelving in 1dB steps, and a 1dB change is imperceptible, 2dB in the
treble and 3dB in the bass becomes noticeable, boost more readily
noticeable than cut.

It is possible, however, that I am rather less sensitive to level change
than others, so I would not be dogmatic that because I can't hear it,
others can't either.

Well, the systems I use employ use a mix of Quad 34 and Armstrong 700
preamps. These both use the Alps stepped attenuators. My experience is much
like yours.

On the other hand, I'm extremely sensitive to stereo positioning, a 1dB
difference in loudness between L and R moves the image enough to be
irritating.

I find that somewhat less than a change of 1dB in balance can be audible. I
suspect this is a strong function of factors like how well the stereo works
in the first place in terms of audible symmetry, direct/indirect sound
ratio, etc.

Slainte,

Jim

--
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