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Do all capacitors sound the same.
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Do all capacitors sound the same.
Nick Gorham wrote:
This might be of interest http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=6667 He dropped some rather interesting info when he was talking about the blind testing "70% of the people in most of the tests preferred our capacitors". It is the word "most" that is telling. Suppose by most he meant perhaps as many as 70%.... Then just under half of the people tested would have preferred his caps. He is also talking about something rather different than most people when considering the sound of the capacitor - he is talking literally; the capacitor is physically making sounds. All you need to do is pop it in a box, and you won't hear it. d |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
Don Pearce wrote:
Nick Gorham wrote: This might be of interest http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=6667 He dropped some rather interesting info when he was talking about the blind testing "70% of the people in most of the tests preferred our capacitors". It is the word "most" that is telling. Suppose by most he meant perhaps as many as 70%.... Then just under half of the people tested would have preferred his caps. Well, I head it as the fact that in blind tests most people prefered the low resonance caps (ie more than 50%), and in some tests up to 70% prefered them. He is also talking about something rather different than most people when considering the sound of the capacitor - he is talking literally; the capacitor is physically making sounds. All you need to do is pop it in a box, and you won't hear it. d Wonderfull bit of not seeming to want to listen Don. He said that as well as causing a audible difference under blind testing, one of the ways the effect can be demonstrated is that the caps produce sound. There are more details here http://www.icwltd.co.uk/claritycap/download/news2.pdf -- Nick |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
Nick Gorham wrote:
Don Pearce wrote: Nick Gorham wrote: This might be of interest http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=6667 He dropped some rather interesting info when he was talking about the blind testing "70% of the people in most of the tests preferred our capacitors". It is the word "most" that is telling. Suppose by most he meant perhaps as many as 70%.... Then just under half of the people tested would have preferred his caps. Well, I head it as the fact that in blind tests most people prefered the low resonance caps (ie more than 50%), and in some tests up to 70% prefered them. No, I listened again - I had it right. He is also talking about something rather different than most people when considering the sound of the capacitor - he is talking literally; the capacitor is physically making sounds. All you need to do is pop it in a box, and you won't hear it. d Wonderfull bit of not seeming to want to listen Don. He said that as well as causing a audible difference under blind testing, one of the ways the effect can be demonstrated is that the caps produce sound. There are more details here http://www.icwltd.co.uk/claritycap/download/news2.pdf But which effect is being heard in the blind test? I note he didn't claim double blind. And having read that paper, I can't say I'm too impressed, apart of course from the obvious fact that Parameter 1 should be C and Parameter 2 about 1.13. How could I not have known that already? Please don't be too impressed by this. When someone passes off an advert as an academic paper, you really must smell a rat. d |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
Don Pearce wrote:
But which effect is being heard in the blind test? I note he didn't claim double blind. What does ITU-R BS.1116-1 specify? -- Nick |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
Nick Gorham wrote:
Don Pearce wrote: But which effect is being heard in the blind test? I note he didn't claim double blind. What does ITU-R BS.1116-1 specify? Something he can't possibly have done - a reference. That would be the same speaker, but with no caps of any kind in it. And of course it would have to be exactly the same speaker - the differences between two samples of driver would be much bigger than what he is describing. The BS.1116 system would let you listen to the reference, then each of the two alternative capacitors and make your choice on which you prefer. d |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
Nick Gorham wrote: This might be of interest No they don't. But only crappy ones. High-K ceramics are fabulously non-linear. Med-K ones are only slightly better. But no competent designer would use them in an audio path. As for plastic film dielectrics, I doubt STRONGLY there's even any remote hope of an audible difference. However using the right VALUE and considering TOLERANCES is VERY important and may mislead people into wandering up blind alleys. Heck, even zero-bias electrolytics are audibly blameless when used corrrectly. That's where an experienced designer's skill counts. Graham |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
Nick Gorham wrote: http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=6667 A load of complete and unmitigated ******** designed purely to extract money from your wallet. As is almost everything 'audiophile'. Graham |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
Don Pearce wrote: Please don't be too impressed by this. When someone passes off an advert as an academic paper, you really must smell a rat. I think the word you meant was FRAUD. Graham |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
In article , Don Pearce
wrote: Nick Gorham wrote: Don Pearce wrote: Nick Gorham wrote: This might be of interest http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=6667 No, I listened again - I had it right. I presume the above URL sends a 'stream' of some kind. My browser simply tells me that it doesn't have a Flash plugin enabled and the page text seems void of info. There are more details here http://www.icwltd.co.uk/claritycap/download/news2.pdf I read the above, and then checked the company website. This has a PDF of an EW article that says much the same. Since neither give much real detail I've tried emailing to see if I can contact Paul Dodds. He is, apparently, a 'Senior Engineer' with the company. Please don't be too impressed by this. When someone passes off an advert as an academic paper, you really must smell a rat. I may be able to come to a better conclusion when I've had more data. EG from the refs given at the end of the above PDF document. But FWIW I gave up reading EW some years ago as it seemed to become full of publicity material masquerading as technical articles. This happened when EW stopped paying for submissions, and is the obvious consequence of such a course. However my Uni Library still get EW, so I'll also have a look when I get a chance to see if there has been any reaction in the form of letters, etc. I also went to the Salford Uni site, but the only link there I found for the co-worker gave a 404. So far as I can recall, it isn't 'news' that caps can have mechanical resonances. The claim that is interesting is that they are audible. But to decide, I'd need to know a lot more about how the 'results' were obtained. For reasons like those others have already mentioned. Interesting, though... :-) Slainte, Jim -- Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me. Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
On 2008-08-22, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Don Pearce wrote: Nick Gorham wrote: Don Pearce wrote: Nick Gorham wrote: This might be of interest http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=6667 No, I listened again - I had it right. I presume the above URL sends a 'stream' of some kind. My browser simply tells me that it doesn't have a Flash plugin enabled and the page text seems void of info. Yes - you need a plug-in. I found it interesting for what he says does NOT matter with respect to the vibration and resonance effects he describes. - The capacitor's vibration of which he talks is not caused by the opposing currents flowing in the parallel plates [1]. - The vibration is connected with the voltage appearing across the capacitor but it does not seem to be discernible at voltages less than 12V. (That cuts out any problem to do with an effective coupling capacitor). - It's apparently nothing to do with tan delta (loss), the effective series resistance (ESR) or the capacitance (the nominal value I assume). - The reverse effect where a (very) high-level audio signal impinges on the capacitor seems to produce no discernable result (an output voltage, I assume). So much for capacitor microphony claims. [1] I did the analysis of this effect some years ago for loudspeaker cables and derived expressions for how the capacitance and inductance of zip-cord speaker cable varied with current flow. The coefficients (of dependence on the square of the current) in typical cases were in the 1-10 parts per billion range, IIRC. I decided they were too small to matter. -- John Phillips |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
In article , John Phillips
wrote: On 2008-08-22, Jim Lesurf wrote: [1] I did the analysis of this effect some years ago for loudspeaker cables and derived expressions for how the capacitance and inductance of zip-cord speaker cable varied with current flow. The coefficients (of dependence on the square of the current) in typical cases were in the 1-10 parts per billion range, IIRC. I decided they were too small to matter. WRT The ClarityCap papers I've not yet seen any figures for the SPL generated for a given input voltage. So no idea how loud the results may be. The paper also mentions doubling - which is what you'd expect if the mechanical movements are due to the force between the plates caused by the charges on them. Slainte, Jim -- Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me. Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , John Phillips wrote: On 2008-08-22, Jim Lesurf wrote: [1] I did the analysis of this effect some years ago for loudspeaker cables and derived expressions for how the capacitance and inductance of zip-cord speaker cable varied with current flow. The coefficients (of dependence on the square of the current) in typical cases were in the 1-10 parts per billion range, IIRC. I decided they were too small to matter. WRT The ClarityCap papers I've not yet seen any figures for the SPL generated for a given input voltage. So no idea how loud the results may be. The paper also mentions doubling - which is what you'd expect if the mechanical movements are due to the force between the plates caused by the charges on them. Slainte, Jim While we're at that, lets not forget the racket that ferrite cored chokes make in crossovers through magnetostriction. I know that decent speakers use air-cored coils, but I've even heard those singing on occasion. d |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
Jim Lesurf wrote: So far as I can recall, it isn't 'news' that caps can have mechanical resonances. The claim that is interesting is that they are audible. But to decide, I'd need to know a lot more about how the 'results' were obtained. For reasons like those others have already mentioned. Crappy quality ones (electrolytics at least) can be bad. I've come across some. Doesn't mean you have to use magic dust or incantations to fix it though, just buy well-made quality product. Graham |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
John Phillips wrote: - The vibration is connected with the voltage appearing across the capacitor but it does not seem to be discernible at voltages less than 12V. (That cuts out any problem to do with an effective coupling capacitor). Well I'm glad we disposed of 99.99999% of the problem in one hit there then. Is some twit now going to suggest it makes a difference for PSU reservoir caps ? Graham |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
John Phillips wrote: [1] I did the analysis of this effect some years ago for loudspeaker cables and derived expressions for how the capacitance and inductance of zip-cord speaker cable varied with current flow. The coefficients (of dependence on the square of the current) in typical cases were in the 1-10 parts per billion range, IIRC. I decided they were too small to matter. -180 dB is indeed pretty irrelevant. Graham |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
Nick Gorham wrote: Don Pearce wrote: Nick Gorham wrote: This might be of interest http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=6667 He dropped some rather interesting info when he was talking about the blind testing "70% of the people in most of the tests preferred our capacitors". It is the word "most" that is telling. Suppose by most he meant perhaps as many as 70%.... Then just under half of the people tested would have preferred his caps. Well, I head it as the fact that in blind tests most people prefered the low resonance caps (ie more than 50%), and in some tests up to 70% prefered them. WTF is a 'low resonance cap' other than audiophool bull**** ? Graham |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
Don Pearce wrote: Please don't be too impressed by this. When someone passes off an advert as an academic paper, you really must smell a rat. You mean a fraud of course. Graham |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
Don Pearce wrote: He is also talking about something rather different than most people when considering the sound of the capacitor - he is talking literally; the capacitor is physically making sounds. All you need to do is pop it in a box, and you won't hear it. You mean like a box poly capacitor ? Graham |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message ... I presume the above URL sends a 'stream' of some kind. My browser simply tells me that it doesn't have a Flash plugin enabled and the page text seems void of info. To be honest it was an 11 min clip that was plenty of waffle, related by a poor chap who looked uncomfortable and not at ease being filmed though he certainly knew his onions. But it has to be said the clip was of impressively high resolution and the sound was OK too. |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
On 2008-08-22, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , John Phillips wrote: On 2008-08-22, Jim Lesurf wrote: [1] I did the analysis of this effect some years ago for loudspeaker cables and derived expressions for how the capacitance and inductance of zip-cord speaker cable varied with current flow. The coefficients (of dependence on the square of the current) in typical cases were in the 1-10 parts per billion range, IIRC. I decided they were too small to matter. WRT The ClarityCap papers I've not yet seen any figures for the SPL generated for a given input voltage. So no idea how loud the results may be. The paper also mentions doubling - which is what you'd expect if the mechanical movements are due to the force between the plates caused by the charges on them. Yes. IIRC, the interview also reveals that the voltage-driven (charge- driven) vibration in the capacitors is second harmonic, and that this is as would be expected. -- John Phillips |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
John Phillips wrote: Jim Lesurf wrote: John Phillips wrote: Jim Lesurf wrote: [1] I did the analysis of this effect some years ago for loudspeaker cables and derived expressions for how the capacitance and inductance of zip-cord speaker cable varied with current flow. The coefficients (of dependence on the square of the current) in typical cases were in the 1-10 parts per billion range, IIRC. I decided they were too small to matter. WRT The ClarityCap papers I've not yet seen any figures for the SPL generated for a given input voltage. So no idea how loud the results may be. The paper also mentions doubling - which is what you'd expect if the mechanical movements are due to the force between the plates caused by the charges on them. Yes. IIRC, the interview also reveals that the voltage-driven (charge- driven) vibration in the capacitors is second harmonic, and that this is as would be expected. Come to think of it, yes it would. Now show me a decent 'name brand' commercial quality capacitor that actually does make any noise. Graham |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
Nick Gorham wrote: This might be of interest http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=6667 I see no-one's actually interested in the truth. It might be a wee bit too technical for them. Graham |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
Eeyore wrote:
John Phillips wrote: Jim Lesurf wrote: John Phillips wrote: Jim Lesurf wrote: [1] I did the analysis of this effect some years ago for loudspeaker cables and derived expressions for how the capacitance and inductance of zip-cord speaker cable varied with current flow. The coefficients (of dependence on the square of the current) in typical cases were in the 1-10 parts per billion range, IIRC. I decided they were too small to matter. WRT The ClarityCap papers I've not yet seen any figures for the SPL generated for a given input voltage. So no idea how loud the results may be. The paper also mentions doubling - which is what you'd expect if the mechanical movements are due to the force between the plates caused by the charges on them. Yes. IIRC, the interview also reveals that the voltage-driven (charge- driven) vibration in the capacitors is second harmonic, and that this is as would be expected. Come to think of it, yes it would. Now show me a decent 'name brand' commercial quality capacitor that actually does make any noise. Graham I just tried the experiment on a few caps I have to hand. The ones that produces a sound when driven by a sig gen were a BC 368WKT 220nf, Acotronics MKP 47nf and a 2.2uf ClarityCap SA. Ones that I tried that didn't prduce any sound I could hear were from Solen and Mundorf. Not sure what you refer to as a 'name brand' but I would think at least the BC would fit that decsription. Though as expected the level was very low, at the 2vRMS 5kHz from my sig gen, it needed the cap to be against the ear, but it was clearly there. -- Nick |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
Nick Gorham wrote: Eeyore wrote: John Phillips wrote: Jim Lesurf wrote: John Phillips wrote: Jim Lesurf wrote: [1] I did the analysis of this effect some years ago for loudspeaker cables and derived expressions for how the capacitance and inductance of zip-cord speaker cable varied with current flow. The coefficients (of dependence on the square of the current) in typical cases were in the 1-10 parts per billion range, IIRC. I decided they were too small to matter. WRT The ClarityCap papers I've not yet seen any figures for the SPL generated for a given input voltage. So no idea how loud the results may be. The paper also mentions doubling - which is what you'd expect if the mechanical movements are due to the force between the plates caused by the charges on them. Yes. IIRC, the interview also reveals that the voltage-driven (charge- driven) vibration in the capacitors is second harmonic, and that this is as would be expected. Come to think of it, yes it would. Now show me a decent 'name brand' commercial quality capacitor that actually does make any noise. I just tried the experiment on a few caps I have to hand. The ones that produces a sound when driven by a sig gen were a BC 368WKT 220nf, Acotronics MKP 47nf and a 2.2uf ClarityCap SA. Ones that I tried that didn't prduce any sound I could hear were from Solen and Mundorf. What was your drive signal ? Not sure what you refer to as a 'name brand' but I would think at least the BC would fit that decsription. Yes, generally so. It's Vishay BC too now just for more fun. Though as expected the level was very low, at the 2vRMS 5kHz from my sig gen, it needed the cap to be against the ear, but it was clearly there. That close ? Care to estimate the dB @ 1m ? It's hardly like inductors singing is it ? Oh and the 368 isn't a 'box poly'. Try one with the plastic box construction next. You know the type I mean ? Graham |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
Eeyore wrote:
Nick Gorham wrote: Eeyore wrote: John Phillips wrote: Jim Lesurf wrote: John Phillips wrote: Jim Lesurf wrote: [1] I did the analysis of this effect some years ago for loudspeaker cables and derived expressions for how the capacitance and inductance of zip-cord speaker cable varied with current flow. The coefficients (of dependence on the square of the current) in typical cases were in the 1-10 parts per billion range, IIRC. I decided they were too small to matter. WRT The ClarityCap papers I've not yet seen any figures for the SPL generated for a given input voltage. So no idea how loud the results may be. The paper also mentions doubling - which is what you'd expect if the mechanical movements are due to the force between the plates caused by the charges on them. Yes. IIRC, the interview also reveals that the voltage-driven (charge- driven) vibration in the capacitors is second harmonic, and that this is as would be expected. Come to think of it, yes it would. Now show me a decent 'name brand' commercial quality capacitor that actually does make any noise. I just tried the experiment on a few caps I have to hand. The ones that produces a sound when driven by a sig gen were a BC 368WKT 220nf, Acotronics MKP 47nf and a 2.2uf ClarityCap SA. Ones that I tried that didn't prduce any sound I could hear were from Solen and Mundorf. What was your drive signal ? The voltage across the cap was (as I said) 2v rms from a Farnell sig gen. Not sure what you refer to as a 'name brand' but I would think at least the BC would fit that decsription. Yes, generally so. It's Vishay BC too now just for more fun. Though as expected the level was very low, at the 2vRMS 5kHz from my sig gen, it needed the cap to be against the ear, but it was clearly there. That close ? Care to estimate the dB @ 1m ? It's hardly like inductors singing is it ? I never said it was, I have no point to prove or axe to grind here, but as you asked: "Now show me a decent 'name brand' commercial quality capacitor that actually does make any noise." I think the important point in terms of the level of the signal and sound was you asked for "any". I thought it would be interesting to actually try some caps instead of making assumptions. Oh and the 368 isn't a 'box poly'. Try one with the plastic box construction next. You know the type I mean ? Yes, as I said, it was just the ones that came to hand, and as I said, some others didn't, but you asked for "a" "name brand", so I found one for you. -- Nick |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
In article , Nick Gorham
wrote: I just tried the experiment on a few caps I have to hand. The ones that produces a sound when driven by a sig gen were a BC 368WKT 220nf, Acotronics MKP 47nf and a 2.2uf ClarityCap SA. Ones that I tried that didn't prduce any sound I could hear were from Solen and Mundorf. Not sure what you refer to as a 'name brand' but I would think at least the BC would fit that decsription. Though as expected the level was very low, at the 2vRMS 5kHz from my sig gen, it needed the cap to be against the ear, but it was clearly there. What is the o/p impedance of your sig gen? 2.2microF at 5kHz is about 15 Ohms if my fingers just pressed the correct buttons on my hand calculator. Implies a reactive level of over a Watt if you really were applying 5v rms. If I understand the ClarityCap papers correctly, you'd need to find the mechanical resonance of each cap to get a peak level of vibration. So 5k might not give as large a response as some other frequency. Slainte, Jim -- Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me. Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Nick Gorham wrote: I just tried the experiment on a few caps I have to hand. The ones that produces a sound when driven by a sig gen were a BC 368WKT 220nf, Acotronics MKP 47nf and a 2.2uf ClarityCap SA. Ones that I tried that didn't prduce any sound I could hear were from Solen and Mundorf. Not sure what you refer to as a 'name brand' but I would think at least the BC would fit that decsription. Though as expected the level was very low, at the 2vRMS 5kHz from my sig gen, it needed the cap to be against the ear, but it was clearly there. What is the o/p impedance of your sig gen? 2.2microF at 5kHz is about 15 Ohms if my fingers just pressed the correct buttons on my hand calculator. Implies a reactive level of over a Watt if you really were applying 5v rms. I just measured it, somewhere around 65R, off load it was giving 8v RMS. I said with the cap in place, it was producing about 5v P/P on a scope trace, or about 2v RMS. If I understand the ClarityCap papers correctly, you'd need to find the mechanical resonance of each cap to get a peak level of vibration. So 5k might not give as large a response as some other frequency. Yes, but I was just trying to test the assumption that no cap would produce any noise, having found that some do under simple to achieve conditions, there is scope to perform more detailed tests. I wonder if something like a strain gauge attached to the cap would be the best way to measure any vibration. -- Nick |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
Don Pearce wrote: But which effect is being heard in the blind test? I note he didn't claim double blind. What does ITU-R BS.1116-1 specify? Double blind. "To conduct subjective assessments in the case of systems generating small impairments, it is necessary to select an appropriate method. The "double-blind triple-stimulus with hidden reference" method has been found to be especially sensitive, stable and to permit accurate detection of small impairments. Therefore, it should be used for this kind of test." |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
I just tried the experiment on a few caps I have to hand. The ones that produces a sound when driven by a sig gen were a BC 368WKT 220nf, Acotronics MKP 47nf and a 2.2uf ClarityCap SA. Ones that I tried that didn't prduce any sound I could hear were from Solen and Mundorf. Two problems: (1) The stated problem seems to be not that the capacitor produces sound (it's someplace inside the bowels of the enclosure) but that operating in a sound field causes the capacitor's operation to be modulated by the sound field. (2) If you're going to test capacitors, it would seem that you would want to test them as they are used. IOW with the kinds of voltages, currents and sound fields that one sees in a loudspeaker. Though as expected the level was very low, at the 2vRMS 5kHz from my sig gen, it needed the cap to be against the ear, but it was clearly there. Note that the output stages of some SS amps produce audible sounds related to the signals that they are amplifying. |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
"Eeyore" wrote in
message Jim Lesurf wrote: So far as I can recall, it isn't 'news' that caps can have mechanical resonances. The claim that is interesting is that they are audible. But to decide, I'd need to know a lot more about how the 'results' were obtained. For reasons like those others have already mentioned. Crappy quality ones (electrolytics at least) can be bad. I've come across some. Doesn't mean you have to use magic dust or incantations to fix it though, just buy well-made quality product. One of the problems with NP electrolytics used in crossovers is that they are often not exactly high-tolerance devices (+80, -20% is not uncommon), and they are not high-stability or long-life devices, either. Anybody who replaces parts that have fallen to say 10% of name-plate capacitance, and finds an audible difference is not necessarily having an imaginary experience, to say the least. I think this happens a lot. Fortunately from the standpoint of good results, but unfortunately from the standpoint of technical understanding, the replacement part is often some kind of high end device that has been advertised to have magical properties. Attributing the change to some magic dielectric or foil or esoteric means of construction is of course foolishment. What really happened is that something that was broken is now repaired, simple as that. |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Nick Gorham" wrote in message I just tried the experiment on a few caps I have to hand. The ones that produces a sound when driven by a sig gen were a BC 368WKT 220nf, Acotronics MKP 47nf and a 2.2uf ClarityCap SA. Ones that I tried that didn't prduce any sound I could hear were from Solen and Mundorf. Two problems: (1) The stated problem seems to be not that the capacitor produces sound (it's someplace inside the bowels of the enclosure) but that operating in a sound field causes the capacitor's operation to be modulated by the sound field. Well, I think not, in the video, the eng describes how they tried to measure the capacitors sensitivity to external sound, and they found nothing. Their point was that internal resonances were taking place, and as a SIDE EFFECT of this sound could at times be found to radiate from the cap. (2) If you're going to test capacitors, it would seem that you would want to test them as they are used. IOW with the kinds of voltages, currents and sound fields that one sees in a loudspeaker. Yes, agreed, and I believe this is what ICW did, I was not trying to test anything other than the assertion that caps would not produce any sound. I assume the logic was that the paper claimed that the caps resonate, and also produce sound, so by stating that they do not actually produce sound the assumption seems to be that the posibility that resonance takes place is removed. Hopefully Jim will manage to find more details. Note that the output stages of some SS amps produce audible sounds related to the signals that they are amplifying. Hmm, and a single cap might be a load that would cause some amps problems. -- Nick |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Nick Gorham" wrote in message Don Pearce wrote: But which effect is being heard in the blind test? I note he didn't claim double blind. What does ITU-R BS.1116-1 specify? Double blind. "To conduct subjective assessments in the case of systems generating small impairments, it is necessary to select an appropriate method. The "double-blind triple-stimulus with hidden reference" method has been found to be especially sensitive, stable and to permit accurate detection of small impairments. Therefore, it should be used for this kind of test." Thanks for that info Arni. -- Nick |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
Arny Krueger wrote: "Nick Gorham" wrote in message I just tried the experiment on a few caps I have to hand. The ones that produces a sound when driven by a sig gen were a BC 368WKT 220nf, Acotronics MKP 47nf and a 2.2uf ClarityCap SA. Ones that I tried that didn't prduce any sound I could hear were from Solen and Mundorf. Two problems: (1) The stated problem seems to be not that the capacitor produces sound (it's someplace inside the bowels of the enclosure) but that operating in a sound field causes the capacitor's operation to be modulated by the sound field. Well, I think not, in the video, the eng describes how they tried to measure the capacitors sensitivity to external sound, and they found nothing. Thanks. I sincerily tried to listen to the video, but the screaming and clanging from my BS meter was waking up the whole neighborhood prematurely, so I had to stop before the police showed up. ;-) Their point was that internal resonances were taking place, and as a SIDE EFFECT of this sound could at times be found to radiate from the cap. Which leaves me wondering where the beef is. It seems to me that that the evidence you say they uncovered: "they tried to measure the capacitors sensitivity to external sound, and they found nothing" should have led them to conclude that they were on a fool's errand. However, the fool's money has been screaming in their ears, filling heir coffers, feeding their children, and thus motivating them onward to higher and higher levels of foolish behavior for at least 10 years, so being well-conditioned to act foolishly, they bravely soldiered on. |
Do all capacitors sound the same. (slightly off topic)
Arny Krueger wrote:
Which leaves me wondering where the beef is. It seems to me that that the evidence you say they uncovered: "they tried to measure the capacitors sensitivity to external sound, and they found nothing" should have led them to conclude that they were on a fool's errand. However, the fool's money has been screaming in their ears, filling heir coffers, feeding their children, and thus motivating them onward to higher and higher levels of foolish behavior for at least 10 years, so being well-conditioned to act foolishly, they bravely soldiered on. Maybe so, The main reason I posted the link was in the hope that others (esp Jim) would be interested enough to dig a bit deeper. As a entirly differebt topic you may have some input on Arni, I have been enjoying myself playing with/learning VHDL and using a FPGA between a spdif reciever and some DAC's, just for the hell of it. So I have been looking into the theory and practice of digital filtering, as much as anything to find something to try and keep the old gray cells going, writing data processing software for a living pays the bills but gets a bit simple after 10 years. Chord and several others before them are making big noises about their new DAC's which claim wonders due to the use of a filter designed by someone called Robert Watts, he calls it a Watts Transient Aligned filter. Other than on Chords pages, or related adverts/review sites I can find no mention of this alg on the web at all, and neither can I find anything in the IEEE library. Does it ring a bell with yourself (or anyone) or is it just more BS? -- Nick |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
In article , Nick Gorham
wrote: Jim Lesurf wrote: In article , Nick Gorham I just measured it, somewhere around 65R, off load it was giving 8v RMS. I said with the cap in place, it was producing about 5v P/P on a scope trace, or about 2v RMS. If I understand the ClarityCap papers correctly, you'd need to find the mechanical resonance of each cap to get a peak level of vibration. So 5k might not give as large a response as some other frequency. Yes, but I was just trying to test the assumption that no cap would produce any noise, having found that some do under simple to achieve conditions, there is scope to perform more detailed tests. OK. However the above makes clear that this is only likely to be a problem in uses like a loudspeaker crossover where the current and power transfer levels are relatively high. Even there, you needed to put your ear near the cap to hear the sound - with an input signal of the order of 1 Watt. I wonder if something like a strain gauge attached to the cap would be the best way to measure any vibration. The problem is that any sensor near the cap may respond suriously to the E-fields or H-fields. So may not simply sense the sound/vibration. However it may be an advantage here that that would tend to be at the drive frequency, not the doubled frequency of sounds created by the forces you'd expect. Slainte, Jim -- Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me. Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html |
Do all capacitors sound the same.
In article , Nick Gorham
wrote: Arny Krueger wrote: "Nick Gorham" wrote in message (1) The stated problem seems to be not that the capacitor produces sound (it's someplace inside the bowels of the enclosure) but that operating in a sound field causes the capacitor's operation to be modulated by the sound field. Well, I think not, in the video, the eng describes how they tried to measure the capacitors sensitivity to external sound, and they found nothing. Their point was that internal resonances were taking place, and as a SIDE EFFECT of this sound could at times be found to radiate from the cap. That is my impression from the documents I've seen thus far. However they lack any real detail, so it is hard to be sure at present. IIUC the idea is that 'intermodulation distortion' of some kind will be produced. The obvious snag is that the vibration seems mainly at a resonance, so would be between anything at that specific frequency and others. i.e. Not a general intermod effect, but one with a tuned response for the nonlinearity. But as yet, I am seeking/awaiting more info. (2) If you're going to test capacitors, it would seem that you would want to test them as they are used. IOW with the kinds of voltages, currents and sound fields that one sees in a loudspeaker. Yes, agreed, and I believe this is what ICW did, I was not trying to test anything other than the assertion that caps would not produce any sound. I assume the logic was that the paper claimed that the caps resonate, and also produce sound, so by stating that they do not actually produce sound the assumption seems to be that the posibility that resonance takes place is removed. Hopefully Jim will manage to find more details. Again, IIUC the tests for 'audibility' used switchable caps in the same network for the same speaker. if so, that does common-mode various other factors. But I currently have no data on how close the cap specs were apart from the claimed behaviour. Nor details of how the tests were done, or any way to tell the statistical significance of the presented results. So as yet, I'd say, "Interesting, but still awaiting relevant data to be able to judge." :-) Slainte, Jim -- Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me. Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html |
Do all capacitors sound the same. (slightly off topic)
In article , Nick Gorham
wrote: Chord and several others before them are making big noises about their new DAC's which claim wonders due to the use of a filter designed by someone called Robert Watts, he calls it a Watts Transient Aligned filter. Other than on Chords pages, or related adverts/review sites I can find no mention of this alg on the web at all, and neither can I find anything in the IEEE library. Does it ring a bell with yourself (or anyone) or is it just more BS? To tag on, I'd also be interested in this. Can't recall offhand if it has appeared in JAES. (However, I'll check when I get a chance.) I can see the general idea, but can't recall seeing the details of the 'WTA' design. As Peter Craven has shown, you can do designs like this in various ways. Slainte, Jim -- Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me. Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html |
Do all capacitors sound the same. (slightly off topic)
Nick Gorham wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote: Which leaves me wondering where the beef is. It seems to me that that the evidence you say they uncovered: "they tried to measure the capacitors sensitivity to external sound, and they found nothing" should have led them to conclude that they were on a fool's errand. However, the fool's money has been screaming in their ears, filling heir coffers, feeding their children, and thus motivating them onward to higher and higher levels of foolish behavior for at least 10 years, so being well-conditioned to act foolishly, they bravely soldiered on. Maybe so, The main reason I posted the link was in the hope that others (esp Jim) would be interested enough to dig a bit deeper. As a entirly differebt topic you may have some input on Arni, I have been enjoying myself playing with/learning VHDL and using a FPGA between a spdif reciever and some DAC's, just for the hell of it. So I have been looking into the theory and practice of digital filtering, as much as anything to find something to try and keep the old gray cells going, writing data processing software for a living pays the bills but gets a bit simple after 10 years. Chord and several others before them are making big noises about their new DAC's which claim wonders due to the use of a filter designed by someone called Robert Watts, he calls it a Watts Transient Aligned filter. Other than on Chords pages, or related adverts/review sites I can find no mention of this alg on the web at all, and neither can I find anything in the IEEE library. Does it ring a bell with yourself (or anyone) or is it just more BS? The blurb on the Chord site features the sentences "It is well known that 96 kHz (DVD Audio) recordings sound better than 44.1 kHz (CD) recordings. What is not well known is that 768 kHz recordings sound better than 384 kHz and that the sound quality limit for sampling lies in the MHz region". With that piece of gibberish as a starting point, I think we are safe in assuming that what follows won't be a great deal better. d |
Do all capacitors sound the same. (slightly off topic)
In article ,
Nick Gorham wrote: Chord and several others before them are making big noises about their new DAC's which claim wonders due to the use of a filter designed by someone called Robert Watts, he calls it a Watts Transient Aligned filter. Other than on Chords pages, or related adverts/review sites I can find no mention of this alg on the web at all, and neither can I find anything in the IEEE library. Does it ring a bell with yourself (or anyone) or is it just more BS? There's an 2006 thread on the prosoundweb forum, but the discussion diverges into dithering. Err, a discussion of dither. http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/18922/0/ Stephen |
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