In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
The most accurate speakers by some margin would be the Quad
electrostatic designs - but these were rarely used as studio monitors.


Decca had a magnificientr pair of the black Quad ELS (the prof version
wiv 'andles on!) donated by Peter Walker.

They were OK in the listening room, but hopeless for control
room monitoring.

Indeed. You need something more robust for that. And usually capable of
much higher SPL.

The concensus was that the mids were
beautiful but the LF weak (comparted with Tannoy or JBL)

The LF isn't 'weak' - or at least not in a decent room - but not as
extended as would be the norm. They have a pretty sharp cutoff below 42 Hz.

and, most important of all, the sweet spot was *far* too narrow.

That could be a problem in a control room with loads of people, I suppose.
But even the best monitors tend to have a sweet spot.

I believe ABC TV originally using them at Teddington Studios and actually
built them in to a 'baffle' along with the picture monitors. Thus reducing
the output even more and doing gawd knows what to the response. Quickly
replaced by BBC LS5/1.

--
*The most wasted day of all is one in which we have not laughed.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
The most accurate speakers by some margin would be the Quad
electrostatic designs - but these were rarely used as studio monitors.


Decca had a magnificientr pair of the black Quad ELS (the prof version
wiv 'andles on!) donated by Peter Walker.

They were OK in the listening room, but hopeless for control
room monitoring.

Indeed. You need something more robust for that. And usually capable of
much higher SPL.

Yes. I would have been afraid of breaking them just doing a drum check:-)

The concensus was that the mids were
beautiful but the LF weak (comparted with Tannoy or JBL)

The LF isn't 'weak' - or at least not in a decent room - but not as
extended as would be the norm. They have a pretty sharp cutoff below 42
Hz.

When I was a 2E we carried the ELS down to studio III for some
tests. The general concensus was that the bass was weak, compared with
JBL, Tannoy, Lockwood etc etc. The bass drum sound was very odd,
no "thump" at all, just lots of "whack" as someone described it.


and, most important of all, the sweet spot was *far* too narrow.

Even with three at a large format console it was a problem. The
producer had to sit behind the engineer.

That could be a problem in a control room with loads of people, I suppose.
But even the best monitors tend to have a sweet spot.

Yes of course, but to nothing like the same extent.

Iain

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
The LF isn't 'weak' - or at least not in a decent room - but not as
extended as would be the norm. They have a pretty sharp cutoff below 42
Hz.

When I was a 2E we carried the ELS down to studio III for some
tests. The general concensus was that the bass was weak, compared with
JBL, Tannoy, Lockwood etc etc. The bass drum sound was very odd,
no "thump" at all, just lots of "whack" as someone described it.

I'm afraid that's because you were used to the sound from those cabinet
speakers where the boxes have a voice of their own. Good deep male speech
proves it - an ELS is far more natural.

Tannoys and Lockwoods - which used the same drivers - were never known for
their neutrality. Fine speakers though they were.

--
*Change is inevitable ... except from vending machines *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
The LF isn't 'weak' - or at least not in a decent room - but not as
extended as would be the norm. They have a pretty sharp cutoff below 42
Hz.

When I was a 2E we carried the ELS down to studio III for some
tests. The general concensus was that the bass was weak, compared with
JBL, Tannoy, Lockwood etc etc. The bass drum sound was very odd,
no "thump" at all, just lots of "whack" as someone described it.

I'm afraid that's because you were used to the sound from those cabinet
speakers where the boxes have a voice of their own. Good deep male speech
proves it - an ELS is far more natural.

I did several spoken word albums for Argo with Richard Burton, and also
many sessions with Sir John Gielgud, and the wonderful Michael Hordern
- maybe the ELS would have been good for those!

But,. as mentioned above, they did not meet anyone' expectations
in pop recording, due probably as you say to the familiarity with
infinite baffled and ported enclosures. In addition, one gained the
impression that the ELS was much too fragile for a Ginger Baker
bass drum:-)

Tannoys and Lockwoods - which used the same drivers - were never known for
their neutrality. Fine speakers though they were.

They were used because they met the expectations of producer,
engineer, client and musician. You can't ask much more than
that, can you?

Iain

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
I'm afraid that's because you were used to the sound from those
cabinet speakers where the boxes have a voice of their own. Good deep
male speech proves it - an ELS is far more natural.

I did several spoken word albums for Argo with Richard Burton, and also
many sessions with Sir John Gielgud, and the wonderful Michael Hordern
- maybe the ELS would have been good for those!

It certainly would. I've been to several speaker comparisons where the
speakers are hidden and on speech no moving coil unit came close to the
ELS on a live versus recorded comparison. The same with most single
acoustic instruments too.

But,. as mentioned above, they did not meet anyone' expectations
in pop recording, due probably as you say to the familiarity with
infinite baffled and ported enclosures. In addition, one gained the
impression that the ELS was much too fragile for a Ginger Baker
bass drum:-)

Absolutely - but it was really designed for domestic use. Provided it's
working within its maximum SPL it will sound good on near anything. Add a
sub and you could say everything.

Tannoys and Lockwoods - which used the same drivers - were never known
for their neutrality. Fine speakers though they were.

They were used because they met the expectations of producer,
engineer, client and musician. You can't ask much more than
that, can you?

Yes - as with much the badge is the most important thing. I'm not much of
a Tannoy fan - despite having owned a couple of pairs. Autographs and
Yorks.

--
*The longest recorded flightof a chicken is thirteen seconds *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

I'm not much of
a Tannoy fan - despite having owned a couple of pairs. Autographs and
Yorks.

Neither of those rate very highly in the Tannoy range IMO.
The old Lancaster was good, also the old (and new) Canterbury.
The Westminster is wonderful. But so was the Little Red Monitor.
albeit in a different class.

Iain

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

I'm not much of
a Tannoy fan - despite having owned a couple of pairs. Autographs and
Yorks.

Neither of those rate very highly in the Tannoy range IMO.

Quite possibly.

The old
Lancaster was good,

Didn't much like those - in 15" form at least.

also the old (and new) Canterbury. The Westminster
is wonderful.

Haven't heard either.

But so was the Little Red Monitor. albeit in a different
class.

There we must differ. Absolutely hate the things, despite their
popularity. Perhaps I just dislike large speakers in small boxes.

--
*Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...


But,. as mentioned above, they did not meet anyone' expectations in pop
recording, due probably as you say to the familiarity with infinite
baffled and ported enclosures. In addition, one gained the impression
that the ELS was much too fragile for a Ginger Baker bass drum:-)

They can be OK for that - but only at limited sound pressure levels in a
small enough room. So not a very 'safe' choice for such a task I guess in
pop studios. Hence suitable for careful home use, but probably not for use
at sound levels that try to match the orginal for such a source. :-)

Tannoys and Lockwoods - which used the same drivers - were never known
for their neutrality. Fine speakers though they were.

They were used because they met the expectations of producer, engineer,
client and musician. You can't ask much more than that, can you?

That seems fine given that the people using them have presumably gained
experience in 'calibrating' the change in sound between what they hear when
at work using these, and what the results then tend to be with domestic
systems.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
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"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...


But,. as mentioned above, they did not meet anyone' expectations in pop
recording, due probably as you say to the familiarity with infinite
baffled and ported enclosures. In addition, one gained the impression
that the ELS was much too fragile for a Ginger Baker bass drum:-)

They can be OK for that - but only at limited sound pressure levels in a
small enough room. So not a very 'safe' choice for such a task I guess in
pop studios.


Much depends on the recording engineer's routine and way of
working. Most have mics rigged and tested and the desk set up with
all routing established before the players arrive. We were taught to
place the faders at about unity gain, but turn the mic presets to minimum
to prevent "surprises"

I certainly would not take a chance with them, any more than I
would use a high-value condenser mic at the other end of the chain,
inside and within 2cms of the front head the bass drum:-)


Hence suitable for careful home use, but probably not for use
at sound levels that try to match the orginal for such a source. :-)

Agreed. I would be terrified of using ELS on anything but the most
gentile and dignified of Baroque sessions:-) But I can see they they
might/could have a place in mastering facilities or listening rooms.


Iain

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Iain Churches wrote:
The LF isn't 'weak' - or at least not in a decent room - but not as
extended as would be the norm. They have a pretty sharp cutoff below 42
Hz.

When I was a 2E we carried the ELS down to studio III for some
tests. The general concensus was that the bass was weak, compared with
JBL, Tannoy, Lockwood etc etc. The bass drum sound was very odd,
no "thump" at all, just lots of "whack" as someone described it.

I'm afraid that's because you were used to the sound from those cabinet
speakers where the boxes have a voice of their own. Good deep male speech
proves it - an ELS is far more natural.

Tannoys and Lockwoods - which used the same drivers - were never known for
their neutrality. Fine speakers though they were.

You do know Lockwood started off as coffin makers ? Agreed about the lack of
neutrality. The Monitor Golds never sounded as clean as the older Reds to me. I
really didn't like the Golds at all.

Graham