Frequency response of the ear
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , tony sayer


Personally, in a studio environment I would be *very* concerned about
their fragility.

Decca had a pair of ESL (63?) the studio versions with black grilles,
and handles on the side, that were presented to us by Peter Walker I
used them for spoken-word recordings for the Argo label, including the
London theatre cast recording of Pygmalion with Diana Rigg.

But I certainly wouldn't have used them on a project where one might PFL
a bass drum:-)

The 63s and their children might survive the over driving. Depends on the
sheer amount of abuse, and the determination with which it is applied.
:-)

I recall breaking out in a sweat hearing the 63s straining at a big-band
in full flight (Ted Heath, or Mike Westbrook, can't remember) And
that certainly could not be described as abuse. One has to be able to
reproduce the recording at the same level as the band played it in
the studio:-)

There was another consideration. As this pair of speakers
had been presented to Decca by PW himself, none of us
wanted the unenviable task of knocking on the door of the
technical director and tell him they had been damaged.

Iain

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Play it on a Tannoy Westminster, or a B+W
Nautilus 802D As the player said "Now you're cooking".

Well yes. All those cabinet resonances make it sound more like a bass
guitar should...

So they meet the expectations. That's the object of the excercise.

As usual, you miss the point. An electric guitar isn't designed to be
listened to from an electrical pickup which just reacts to the strings.
They're made to be listened to via a amp/loudspeaker, which will add to
the sound produced by the pickup. And if your monitoring adds that
colouration to the DI output it will also add it to all the other sources.

The experiment is to show the true sound of a Rickenbacker
5 string fretless bass - not a lead guitar. So, it is not at all
unrerasonable at least for analysis to take the output direct
from the pickup. Often on jazz recordings no amp or mic
is actually used (as I am sure you know, Dave:-)

Iain

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

Colouration is certainly the biggest problem with 'horns' after their
size - some colouration is easy to absorb and totally forget/ignore; some
isn't; some 'horns' are more 'coloured' than others. Whatever - all in
all, it's a small price to pay for an overall 'best sound' if, say, male
voices sound a bit quacky when you almost *never* hear a male voice
speaking on your system!

Lowthers and also those old Altecs that were ubiquitious in the 70s
give a valve trombone sound to die for:-)

Iain

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote


I agree. I still think there is no one loudspeaker fror all aplications


I've isolated this phrase to say I've been saying the *same thing* here
for years and is why I have always tended to have as many as three pairs
of speakers on the go (at different times), in the same room!

Having what is often described as 'catholic tastes' (Bjork/Bach), there's
plenty of stuff I like to play loud (occasionally) that I wouldn't want
played on my Lowthers!!



There is no "holy grail" of loudspeakers. You pick the
one you think will give you the most accurate information
for the project in hand. People involved in professional
recording know this, and switch happily from B+W to JBL
to Tannoy project to project Ofen the client has a preference
also:-)

Iain

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article , Iain Churches
scribeth thus

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , tony sayer


Personally, in a studio environment I would be *very* concerned about
their fragility.

Decca had a pair of ESL (63?) the studio versions with black grilles,
and handles on the side, that were presented to us by Peter Walker I
used them for spoken-word recordings for the Argo label, including the
London theatre cast recording of Pygmalion with Diana Rigg.

But I certainly wouldn't have used them on a project where one might PFL
a bass drum:-)

The 63s and their children might survive the over driving. Depends on the
sheer amount of abuse, and the determination with which it is applied.
:-)

I recall breaking out in a sweat hearing the 63s straining at a big-band
in full flight (Ted Heath, or Mike Westbrook, can't remember) And
that certainly could not be described as abuse. One has to be able to
reproduce the recording at the same level as the band played it in
the studio:-)


Same level at home too;?...

There was another consideration. As this pair of speakers
had been presented to Decca by PW himself, none of us
wanted the unenviable task of knocking on the door of the
technical director and tell him they had been damaged.


How very considerate..

I remember seeing some being tested at the factory once and they were
fed with a square wave and the output on the scope from the B&K Mic was
... well .. very square;)..
Iain




--
Tony Sayer

Frequency response of the ear
 

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 20:20:27 +0300, "Iain Churches"
wrote:

Colouration is certainly the biggest problem with 'horns' after their
size - some colouration is easy to absorb and totally forget/ignore; some
isn't; some 'horns' are more 'coloured' than others. Whatever - all in
all, it's a small price to pay for an overall 'best sound' if, say, male
voices sound a bit quacky when you almost *never* hear a male voice
speaking on your system!

Lowthers and also those old Altecs that were ubiquitious in the 70s
give a valve trombone sound to die for:-)

Trouble is, they do it when you play a recording of a viola :-)

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote


I agree. I still think there is no one loudspeaker fror all aplications


I've isolated this phrase to say I've been saying the *same thing* here
for years and is why I have always tended to have as many as three pairs
of speakers on the go (at different times), in the same room!

Having what is often described as 'catholic tastes' (Bjork/Bach), there's
plenty of stuff I like to play loud (occasionally) that I wouldn't want
played on my Lowthers!!



There is no "holy grail" of loudspeakers.


If there was, I suspect it would be common knowledge by now and there
wouldn't be much else available that was too different!


You pick the
one you think will give you the most accurate information
for the project in hand. People involved in professional
recording know this, and switch happily from B+W to JBL
to Tannoy project to project Ofen the client has a preference
also:-)


Good. I'm relieved I'm not alone!! ;-)

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote


I do have form in this as I did once set fire to a 57. 8-]


:-)



TBH I've long come to regard the Quads as "the world's largest pair of
headphones" because of the critical sweetspot, placing, etc.
Fortunately, the results when right are excellent, and the sound can
be enjoyed by others sitting elsewhere - if they are less fussy about
imaging.


Ever tried Stax 'Earspeakers'? Only about 400 quid a pair, I believe!!



Fortunately, 'Drum and Bass' 'pop music' isn't one of my interests...



Nor mine - my music tastes aren't *that* catholic....

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote


Yes, makes sense. Getting them setup in a room can be a real trial, and
may
never work out in some rooms. So some people might try them for weeks
before deciding to try summat else. However I fell in love with the way
they allowed me to forget I was listening via loudspeakers.


I like it when the sound is 'outside the box' which it has been for me, ever
since I have been using horns. No-one (including Plowie's milkman) has any
idea which of three pairs of speakers is working at any time without going
right up to see!! (Lowthers don't move much - 1.5mm max? :-)


You mention 'imaging' and the 'sweet spot fussiness' - this is possibly
the most important requirement for me, along with detail/clarity and is
why I tend to prefer 'horns. With horns I find 'depth' (vastness, 3D
qualities) in a sound isn't lost in the right music even when I'm all
the way across the house listening to music!

Alas, the kind of imaging I'm referring to tends in my experience to
require very carefully symmetry in the listening layout, and speakers
like the Quads with a defined directional behaviour. Hence the need
to have a small sweet spot in a small room.


Imaging for me isn't anything to do with a layout of sounds - that is
academic as far as I'm concerned; it is to do with the sounds having a
realistic 'depth' - ie true 'stereo' with 3D locatability. A 'small sound'
like windchimes, for example, could almost be 'held in the hand'!


Anyway, this disc really presented a superbly natural-sounding
perspective in terms of how the voices are laid out in front of
you within the recorded acoustic. If I stand up and move sideways
the general sound is still good, but the image of how the people
singing are arranged in space vanishes.


That's a good description - it is possibly to move past the image with my
'horns' and the image doesn't falter when you approach the plane of the
speakers.


I can listen to cone-and-box speakers. Use a pair of LS35As for
'background
listening'. But they don't give me the same impression of reality that I
get from ESLs. Just a pleasing sound.


Exactly what I find - small 'domestic monitors' do a very good job with
'radio' speech and music when it is primarily background sound.

Frequency response of the ear
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
Trust me, if I had wanted ESLs in the past I'd have got ESLs and if I
find I
want them in the future (a bit unlikely) I'll *get* ESLs!!

Will that do ya? :-)

Yeabut you'd never get a SET amp to drive 'em;)

Unless you've got a few old transmitting triodes around;!...


I know your only joking, but I'll point out that the 'holy trinity' for me
is 'valves (triodes), vinyl and horns' - for other situations I use whatever
amp and speakers best suit the requirements.

Atm, my speaker/amp setups are as follows:

Vinyl - 2A3 SET/Fidelios (horns)

Cinema 1 - Sony SS multichannel/Ruarks/Tannoys

Cinema 2 - KT88 PP valves/ Buschhorn Mk IIs (horns)

Computer - Denon SS/Cyburg 'Needles' (horns)

Garage - Roberts radio

Bathroom - Roberts radio

Car - Pioneer CD/radio

Almost dominated by single, 'fullrange' drivers aren't I...??

:-)

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

Colouration is certainly the biggest problem with 'horns' after their
size - some colouration is easy to absorb and totally forget/ignore; some
isn't; some 'horns' are more 'coloured' than others. Whatever - all in
all, it's a small price to pay for an overall 'best sound' if, say, male
voices sound a bit quacky when you almost *never* hear a male voice
speaking on your system!

Lowthers and also those old Altecs that were ubiquitious in the 70s
give a valve trombone sound to die for:-)


Other than the 'drum n bass' mentioned elsewhere, Lowthers are to die for
for a whole lot more than that!

The trouble is, too many people have an opinion and have never heard them,
or have an opinion based on perhaps a single session with them! Like much
else in life (including every single pair of speakers on the planet) they
take a little getting used to. Another problem with Lowthers and similar
others) is they take as much as three years of normal use to be properly run
in!

(Actually, that's much the same for any speaker - I've too many instances of
people telling me how they regret getting rid of speakers they'd had for
decades and had decided to 'upgrade'!! :-)

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
But I certainly wouldn't have used them on a project where one might
PFL a bass drum:-)

The 63s and their children might survive the over driving. Depends on the
sheer amount of abuse, and the determination with which it is applied. :-)

None of the Quad designs are suitable for pro monitoring use. Only place
I know that tried was the ABC studios at Teddington, many many years ago.
Under the control of a 'musician' rather than professional. But the
requirements for a pro monitor are very different from domestic use. If it
gets knackered by plugging in a mic etc with the channel faded up that
could be the end of the day. You don't do that at home.

I could say I'm amazed Iain doesn't seem to know this. But then again,
not.

They do have various inbuilt arrangements like switching the
transformer windings and dropping a crowbar triac across the input to
help protect them against minor abuses. However as I once pointed out to
PJW, the early 63s only used a 5Amp triac and the amp I used could
cheerfully drive 30 amps for prolonged periods. So my own amp would
have toasted the triac then attacked the speaker if I'd been unwise
enough to shove up the power.

Iain seems only to have experience of the '57.

I do have form in this as I did once set fire to a 57. 8-]

Above said, I'd certainly avoid overdriving as the result sounds poor
even if the speakers are undamaged. So not for bass drum at
'enthusiastic' levels.

I do wonder just how many can use 'concert' levels at home. Very few I'd
guess.

TBH I've long come to regard the Quads as "the world's largest pair
of headphones" because of the critical sweetspot, placing, etc.
Fortunately, the results when right are excellent, and the sound can
be enjoyed by others sitting elsewhere - if they are less fussy
about imaging.

How often do two people sit down to listen to music where they both are so
critical? Unless you're talking about Kitty and his milkman, obviously.

We found when using the ESLs in Decca III that it was necessary for
the producer to sit directly beind the engineer, with the assistant
producer making a third row. Even reaching across the console was
enough to take your head outside the sweet spot.

I sometimes struggle to make sure both of my ears fit inside it! But the
effort is worthwhile in my view. :-)

Fortunately, 'Drum and Bass' 'pop music' isn't one of my interests...

Well, unless you want your ears wrecked, even the '57 will make a very
respectable job of those in the right room.

--
*Prepositions are not words to end sentences with *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Well it has to be listened to loud when recorded to impress the musos
who may well be a bit deaf, and the producer et al has to be impressed
so its not too surprising that a lorra ooomph is required for such
situations.

Plus the audio processing to get that "radio edit" sound;

Now I can't see why for most all classical music why you would need to
monitor at such levels?.............


Unless your a bit hard of hearing in the first place..

Crikey. This is worrying. I agree with you.

--
*Middle age is when work is a lot less fun - and fun a lot more work.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
To my ears far less than any cone-and-box speakers I've ever heard.
Measureably lower distortion and resonances over the bulk of the
audible range. I certainly don't notice any colourations when using
them, but I do tend to with cone-and-box ones.

Indeed .. as good as what the Spendors and LS35/A's are here the Quads
are "the" ones for serious listening;))..

LS 3/5a were designed by the BBC to be as good as possible a monitor where
space was severely restricted. Like in some applications in an outside
broadcast truck. Etc. Not as the best possible monitor regardless. And as
such they work well for domestic use. Where the same parameters apply.
I've got a pair in the kitchen and they have provided sterling service. As
do this pair in this room where this computer is.

Only someone who compares equipment by price would set them against larger
units.




--
*The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
I recall breaking out in a sweat hearing the 63s straining at a big-band
in full flight (Ted Heath, or Mike Westbrook, can't remember) And
that certainly could not be described as abuse. One has to be able to
reproduce the recording at the same level as the band played it in
the studio:-)

Is that your main requirement for a domestic setup? Despite having some
1000 watts of power here in my living room I can't get quite the same sort
of levels I hear in at some pop concerts or 'discos'. Luckily.

--
*Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
As usual, you miss the point. An electric guitar isn't designed to be
listened to from an electrical pickup which just reacts to the
strings. They're made to be listened to via a amp/loudspeaker, which
will add to the sound produced by the pickup. And if your monitoring
adds that colouration to the DI output it will also add it to all the
other sources.

The experiment is to show the true sound of a Rickenbacker
5 string fretless bass - not a lead guitar.

I wasn't talking about a 'lead' guitar' I assumed you were talking about
bass guitars. Was I wrong?

So, it is not at all unrerasonable at least for analysis to take the
output direct from the pickup. Often on jazz recordings no amp or mic is
actually used (as I am sure you know, Dave:-)

Might as well use a sampler, Iain. As I'm sure you know, Iain. ;-)

--
*Everybody lies, but it doesn't matter since nobody listens*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
I recall breaking out in a sweat hearing the 63s straining at a big-band
in full flight (Ted Heath, or Mike Westbrook, can't remember) And
that certainly could not be described as abuse. One has to be able to
reproduce the recording at the same level as the band played it in
the studio:-)

Is that your main requirement for a domestic setup?

No.This is the requirement for replay in a control room.
I was referring also to non-amplified instruments.

Iain

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
But I certainly wouldn't have used them on a project where one might
PFL a bass drum:-)

The 63s and their children might survive the over driving. Depends on the
sheer amount of abuse, and the determination with which it is applied.
:-)

None of the Quad designs are suitable for pro monitoring use. Only place
I know that tried was the ABC studios at Teddington, many many years ago.
Under the control of a 'musician' rather than professional.


LOL. So a musician is not a professional? Normally pieces of
equipment such as speakers are chosen by a panel of both
engineering and production/artistic staff. I know that at ABC
(Thames studios after 1968), the opinion of the musical
director, Ronnie Aldrich, who was a good friend of mine, was
often sought, and his view highly regarded. Was he the musician
to whom you refer?


But the
requirements for a pro monitor are very different from domestic use. If it
gets knackered by plugging in a mic etc with the channel faded up that
could be the end of the day. You don't do that at home.

I could say I'm amazed Iain doesn't seem to know this. But then again,
not.

I have mentioned this exact point at least twice in this thread.


They do have various inbuilt arrangements like switching the
transformer windings and dropping a crowbar triac across the input to
help protect them against minor abuses. However as I once pointed out to
PJW, the early 63s only used a 5Amp triac and the amp I used could
cheerfully drive 30 amps for prolonged periods. So my own amp would
have toasted the triac then attacked the speaker if I'd been unwise
enough to shove up the power.

Iain seems only to have experience of the '57.

I mentioned sprecifically the 63, the black studio model with handles on
the side, presented to Decca by PW himself. on which several recordings
were made, including the London theatre cast recording of Pygmalion
with Diana Rigg. Please pay attention, Dave:-)

Interestingly, the direct to disc recording engineered by myself, which
Peter Walker commissioned from Decca, and used up until his retirement,
was made using Tannoy Lancaster speakers:-) PW knew we had at least
one pair of ELS63, but did not even suggest their use (as executive
producer he would have been fully entitled to do so)

How often do two people sit down to listen to music where they both are so
critical?

Quite often. A musician/artist comes to supper, and brings his/her
recordings along. Preferably you need a sweet spot where three
people can sit comfortably and share the same listrening experience.

Iain

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
As usual, you miss the point. An electric guitar isn't designed to be
listened to from an electrical pickup which just reacts to the
strings. They're made to be listened to via a amp/loudspeaker, which
will add to the sound produced by the pickup. And if your monitoring
adds that colouration to the DI output it will also add it to all the
other sources.

The experiment is to show the true sound of a Rickenbacker
5 string fretless bass - not a lead guitar.

I wasn't talking about a 'lead' guitar' I assumed you were talking about
bass guitars. Was I wrong?

The idea is to hear the sound of the instrument, straight from the pickup
as I stated previously. It's all pretty academic really, as you almost
certainly will not bother to make the comparison I described:-)

Might as well use a sampler, Iain. As I'm sure you know, Iain. ;-)

Err no.
That's what Arny tried to do with his famous French horn snippet..
He fooled no-one except himself.


Iain

Frequency response of the ear
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
scribeth thus

I recall breaking out in a sweat hearing the 63s straining at a big-band
in full flight (Ted Heath, or Mike Westbrook, can't remember) And
that certainly could not be described as abuse. One has to be able to
reproduce the recording at the same level as the band played it in
the studio:-)


Same level at home too;?...

No. I am talk about studio codnditions, and the poor
suitability of the ESL63 in this environment. The players
in a big-band like the two mentioned aove expect power,
impact and a full dynamic from, "ppp" to " sffz" from
seven brass, five saxes, percussion and a rhythm section.
A monitor system in a large control room with perhaps
twenty people listening needs to be able to produce
high SPLs.

There was another consideration. As this pair of speakers
had been presented to Decca by PW himself, none of us
wanted the unenviable task of knocking on the door of the
technical director and tell him they had been damaged.


How very considerate..


It didn't seem worth "blotting ones copy book" for a pair of
speakers that clearly could not fulfill the requirements of a
studio role.


I remember seeing some being tested at the factory once and they were
fed with a square wave and the output on the scope from the B&K Mic was
.. well .. very square;)..


Their accuracy has never been in doubt. I remember
that Harley Usill, the recording director (producer) of
the Pygmalion recording to which I referred earlier, was
greatly impressed by the "realism" of the reproduction.


Iain

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article , Iain Churches
scribeth thus

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
scribeth thus

I recall breaking out in a sweat hearing the 63s straining at a big-band
in full flight (Ted Heath, or Mike Westbrook, can't remember) And
that certainly could not be described as abuse. One has to be able to
reproduce the recording at the same level as the band played it in
the studio:-)


Same level at home too;?...

No. I am talk about studio codnditions, and the poor
suitability of the ESL63 in this environment. The players
in a big-band like the two mentioned aove expect power,
impact and a full dynamic from, "ppp" to " sffz" from
seven brass, five saxes, percussion and a rhythm section.
A monitor system in a large control room with perhaps
twenty people listening needs to be able to produce
high SPLs.


Yes well.. thats more like a PA rig then;, nothing to do with quality
assessment;)...

There was another consideration. As this pair of speakers
had been presented to Decca by PW himself, none of us
wanted the unenviable task of knocking on the door of the
technical director and tell him they had been damaged.


How very considerate..


It didn't seem worth "blotting ones copy book" for a pair of
speakers that clearly could not fulfill the requirements of a
studio role.


I remember seeing some being tested at the factory once and they were
fed with a square wave and the output on the scope from the B&K Mic was
.. well .. very square;)..


Their accuracy has never been in doubt. I remember
that Harley Usill, the recording director (producer) of
the Pygmalion recording to which I referred earlier, was
greatly impressed by the "realism" of the reproduction.

;))...

Iain




--
Tony Sayer

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
To my ears far less than any cone-and-box speakers I've ever heard.
Measureably lower distortion and resonances over the bulk of the
audible range. I certainly don't notice any colourations when using
them, but I do tend to with cone-and-box ones.

Indeed .. as good as what the Spendors and LS35/A's are here the Quads
are "the" ones for serious listening;))..

LS 3/5a were designed by the BBC to be as good as possible a monitor where
space was severely restricted. Like in some applications in an outside
broadcast truck. Etc. Not as the best possible monitor regardless. And as
such they work well for domestic use. Where the same parameters apply.
I've got a pair in the kitchen and they have provided sterling service. As
do this pair in this room where this computer is.

Only someone who compares equipment by price would set them against larger
units.


Yes mine are in use for computer speakers, and very good for the app
they are too;))...

Being driven via a Digigram soundcard which we had no other use for..




--
Tony Sayer

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article , Keith G
scribeth thus

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
Trust me, if I had wanted ESLs in the past I'd have got ESLs and if I
find I
want them in the future (a bit unlikely) I'll *get* ESLs!!

Will that do ya? :-)

Yeabut you'd never get a SET amp to drive 'em;)

Unless you've got a few old transmitting triodes around;!...


I know your only joking, but I'll point out that the 'holy trinity' for me
is 'valves (triodes), vinyl and horns' - for other situations I use whatever
amp and speakers best suit the requirements.

Atm, my speaker/amp setups are as follows:

Vinyl - 2A3 SET/Fidelios (horns)

Cinema 1 - Sony SS multichannel/Ruarks/Tannoys

Those proper Tannoy's or the newer ones?...

Cinema 2 - KT88 PP valves/ Buschhorn Mk IIs (horns)

Computer - Denon SS/Cyburg 'Needles' (horns)

Garage - Roberts radio

Bathroom - Roberts radio

Car - Pioneer CD/radio

Almost dominated by single, 'fullrange' drivers aren't I...??

:-)







--
Tony Sayer

Frequency response of the ear
 

On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 09:18:15 +0300, "Iain Churches"
wrote:

None of the Quad designs are suitable for pro monitoring use. Only place
I know that tried was the ABC studios at Teddington, many many years ago.
Under the control of a 'musician' rather than professional.

"Professionals" consistently do terrible things to my music. In fact,
when amplification is involved, *I* frequently do terrible things to
my music - it's all to easy to let levels run away with themselves.

My constant plea to sound professionals is "turn it down" whether it's
overall level at a live gig or monitor levels at a recording.

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article 49fc823e.1124263953@localhost, Don Pearce
wrote:
On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:07:25 +0100, Jim Lesurf
wrote:

Alas, the kind of imaging I'm referring to tends in my experience to
require very carefully symmetry in the listening layout, and speakers
like the Quads with a defined directional behaviour. Hence the need to
have a small sweet spot in a small room.

My finding on this is that the sweet spot can be enlarged usefully if
you stop worrying about symmetry, but instead concentrate on creating
diffuse reflections rather than specular ones, particularly from the
walls beside the speakers. With that taken care of, pointing the
speakers a little straighter into the room rather than crossing exactly
at the seating position can make them cover three seats with solid
imaging.

My experience with that is that it also 'blurs out' the images for specific
instruments/voices. So you end up moving towards the old 'Sonab' experience
where you got etherial noises from around you wherever you went. They
regarded that as 'stereo', but I don't.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

I recall breaking out in a sweat hearing the 63s straining at a big-band
in full flight (Ted Heath, or Mike Westbrook, can't remember) And that
certainly could not be described as abuse. One has to be able to
reproduce the recording at the same level as the band played it in the
studio:-)

You may have to do so if in a studio or hall, or wish to check the results.
But in many UK domestic rooms a lower level is likely to make better sense.
Due to the way 'close' reflections tend to enhance the perceived sound
level.

However 63s should survive this with no damage - unless your power amp
could drive enough to blow the triacs in them, and you were determined.
Assuming, or course, a natural peak/mean value for the signals. I'd be more
worried with heavily processed pop that seems to have a peak/mean ratio of
about 0dB and a similar dynamic range. But they you don't need ESLs to
listen to that... although maybe if studios did, they'd learn to make
better pop recordings. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article , tony sayer

wrote:

I remember seeing some being tested at the factory once and they were
fed with a square wave and the output on the scope from the B&K Mic was
.. well .. very square;)..

I've also seen that. Also that they would drive two ESLs in antiphase to
check they could null the two outputs at the mic to confirm the two
speakers were near identical in performance. Never seen that with any other
speaker outside an anechoic chamber. They did it in the open factory when I
was there.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote


I do have form in this as I did once set fire to a 57. 8-]


:-)

The impressive thing was that Led Zep sounded the same with a couple of
feet of flames emerging from the center of the speaker - for a while...
:-)

TBH I've long come to regard the Quads as "the world's largest pair
of headphones" because of the critical sweetspot, placing, etc.
Fortunately, the results when right are excellent, and the sound
can be enjoyed by others sitting elsewhere - if they are less fussy
about imaging.


Ever tried Stax 'Earspeakers'? Only about 400 quid a pair, I believe!!

I've tried earlier models from them, and did like them. But I tend to find
headphones don't give me the same 'out there' image, and tend to become
uncomfortable after a while.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Change 'noise' to 'jcgl' if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
None of the Quad designs are suitable for pro monitoring use. Only
place I know that tried was the ABC studios at Teddington, many many
years ago. Under the control of a 'musician' rather than professional.


LOL. So a musician is not a professional? Normally pieces of
equipment such as speakers are chosen by a panel of both
engineering and production/artistic staff. I know that at ABC
(Thames studios after 1968), the opinion of the musical
director, Ronnie Aldrich, who was a good friend of mine, was
often sought, and his view highly regarded. Was he the musician
to whom you refer?

I don't know for certain since it was before my time there - but was
sometimes discussed round the coffee table. The other strange speakers
used were Tannoy Autographs as tracking foldback speakers - fed via 100
volt line. But those had gone too by the time I worked there. But lived on
in legend...

--
*If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
I wasn't talking about a 'lead' guitar' I assumed you were talking about
bass guitars. Was I wrong?

The idea is to hear the sound of the instrument, straight from the pickup
as I stated previously.

Using a DI doesn't give the sound of the instrument, though, Iain.

It's all pretty academic really, as you almost
certainly will not bother to make the comparison I described:-)

It is indeed. Do you use contact mics on a decent piano to get 'the sound
of the instrument' too?

--
*Do they ever shut up on your planet?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...


Cinema 1 - Sony SS multichannel/Ruarks/Tannoys

Cinema 2 - KT88 PP valves/ Buschhorn Mk IIs (horns)


You running your own multiplex?

David.

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote


How often do two people sit down to listen to music where they both are
so
critical?


Bit of a giveaway that - 'Billy No Mates' obviously listens in solitude....



Quite often. A musician/artist comes to supper, and brings his/her
recordings along. Preferably you need a sweet spot where three
people can sit comfortably and share the same listrening experience.


.....there are probably half a dozen past and present posters in this ng who
have been here and listened to the various rigs I have had on trial, at
different times!

Frequency response of the ear
 

"tony sayer" wrote


Those proper Tannoy's or the newer ones?...


Newer ones - triangular cabinets.

Frequency response of the ear
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message
...


Cinema 1 - Sony SS multichannel/Ruarks/Tannoys

Cinema 2 - KT88 PP valves/ Buschhorn Mk IIs (horns)


You running your own multiplex?


Yes, have done for a while - late night movies on the main one (aka 'Plex1)
which is due for an upgrade to 'Full HD 1080p' when Amazon decide to stop
punishing me for not paying about 7 quid *delivery blackmail money* and send
me my new Oppy HD800X:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp_Vd...eature=related


And mostly recorded TV progs and *era movies* (Conrad Veidt and Valerie
Hobson in The Spy In Black is the most recent superb example) on 'Plex 2 (my
room) which will soon benefit from the 700X from 'Plex 1!

(Which will flush out as 'spare' a *perfectly good* splendid Benq W100 DLP
with low hours on it, if anyone wants one!)

The amount of TV progs with a very good 'soundtrack' like the endless
historical Jazz and Blues progs, for example, is almost unbelievable when
you push past 'CSI' and the dreck that Plowies works in - called 'Da Biw' or
somesuch, IIRC..!!??

Listening to these on a seriously clear audio system with a picture 6' wide
before you (less on the older, 4:3 stuff) is a totally different/enveloping
experience compared with just 'watching the telly'!!

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Keith G" wrote


Yes, have done for a while - late night movies on the main one (aka
'Plex1) which is due for an upgrade to 'Full HD 1080p' when Amazon decide
to stop punishing me for not paying about 7 quid *delivery blackmail
money* and send me my new Oppy HD800X:


OK, as you were - just had an email to say it's on it's way!

:-))

No, make that a....

:-)))


See also (HD80 and HD800 very similar):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&v=qGhf0JMSXZo


First 5 minutes is the nifty 'All America Mom' fitting the new PJ to the
ceiling while (presumably) the dippy kid does the filming! From about 6 mins
in is music and movie samples - ****e quality, of course, but you get the
idea!

(Now to figure out how to get 'HDTV' through the PJ...???)

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message
...


Cinema 1 - Sony SS multichannel/Ruarks/Tannoys

Cinema 2 - KT88 PP valves/ Buschhorn Mk IIs (horns)


You running your own multiplex?


Yes, have done for a while - late night movies on the main one (aka
'Plex1)

And the other one?


David.

Frequency response of the ear
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message
...


Cinema 1 - Sony SS multichannel/Ruarks/Tannoys

Cinema 2 - KT88 PP valves/ Buschhorn Mk IIs (horns)


You running your own multiplex?


Yes, have done for a while - late night movies on the main one (aka
'Plex1)

And the other one?


Did you miss this (not too clear, I admit - sorry):

And mostly recorded TV progs and *era movies* (Conrad Veidt and Valerie
Hobson in The Spy In Black is the most recent superb example) on 'Plex 2 (my
room) which will soon benefit from the 700X from 'Plex 1!

Frequency response of the ear
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
How often do two people sit down to listen to music where they both
are so critical?


Bit of a giveaway that - 'Billy No Mates' obviously listens in
solitude....

I certainly don't choose friends on their ability to assess loudspeakers.


Quite often. A musician/artist comes to supper, and brings his/her
recordings along. Preferably you need a sweet spot where three people
can sit comfortably and share the same listrening experience.


....there are probably half a dozen past and present posters in this ng
who have been here and listened to the various rigs I have had on
trial, at different times!

Still searching for the perfect one then Kitty?

--
*I want it all and I want it delivered

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Frequency response of the ear
 

On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 09:51:41 +0100, Jim Lesurf
wrote:

In article 49fc823e.1124263953@localhost, Don Pearce
wrote:
On Wed, 29 Apr 2009 16:07:25 +0100, Jim Lesurf
wrote:

Alas, the kind of imaging I'm referring to tends in my experience to
require very carefully symmetry in the listening layout, and speakers
like the Quads with a defined directional behaviour. Hence the need to
have a small sweet spot in a small room.

My finding on this is that the sweet spot can be enlarged usefully if
you stop worrying about symmetry, but instead concentrate on creating
diffuse reflections rather than specular ones, particularly from the
walls beside the speakers. With that taken care of, pointing the
speakers a little straighter into the room rather than crossing exactly
at the seating position can make them cover three seats with solid
imaging.

My experience with that is that it also 'blurs out' the images for specific
instruments/voices. So you end up moving towards the old 'Sonab' experience
where you got etherial noises from around you wherever you went. They
regarded that as 'stereo', but I don't.


That happens if you try to angle the speakers too far from crossing,
but if you just make it a few degree, so the beams hit the listening
position roughly midway between two listeners, all is well. You don't
get a huge sweet spot, but certainly three people on one settee is
quite possible.

And it is dead easy to realign them properly when you are listening
alone, of course.

d

Frequency response of the ear
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , tony sayer

wrote:

I remember seeing some being tested at the factory once and they were
fed with a square wave and the output on the scope from the B&K Mic was
.. well .. very square;)..

I've also seen that. Also that they would drive two ESLs in antiphase to
check they could null the two outputs at the mic to confirm the two
speakers were near identical in performance.



How is that so hard - I would expect that with Lowthers?