Don Pearce said...

Hold an LP up balanced on two fingers at opposite edges - you will see
how much it sags quite easily. Obviously it doesn't sag as much as
that with six suspension points, but it sags much more than enough to
generate a huge signal.

The Hydraulic was designed for the thick'n sturdy pre 73 oil crisis
discs which are a totally different animal to the later floppies.

I got a couple of lp's last week, a Decca ffrr from 1965 and a bog
standard EMI Columbia from 1966 and neither droops on your finger tip
test, on the contrary significant pressure has to be applied to deform
them.

--
Ken O'Meara
http://www.btinternet.com/~unsteadyken/

"UnsteadyKen" wrote in message
...
Don Pearce said...

Hold an LP up balanced on two fingers at opposite edges - you will see
how much it sags quite easily. Obviously it doesn't sag as much as
that with six suspension points, but it sags much more than enough to
generate a huge signal.

The Hydraulic was designed for the thick'n sturdy pre 73 oil crisis
discs which are a totally different animal to the later floppies.


There's all sorts of horse**** to do with coupling/supporting records
(vacuums, clamps, felts, rubber mats, glass platters &c. &c.) and plenty of
followers of each and every 'theory' - you just go with what you like, I
find. And I have to say I have never been able to tell the difference
between similarly good recordings on the various thicknesses of vinyl - a
good example that springs to mind is a series of compilations called....

called....

erm...

heaves arse off chair and goes to look

'Reflections'! (CBS10034 to name but a few)

Which are on really *whippy* vinyl but which are beautifully recorded and
sound fine! (I might use that one for the Tic Tac Test later!)




I got a couple of lp's last week, a Decca ffrr from 1965 and a bog
standard EMI Columbia from 1966 and neither droops on your finger tip
test, on the contrary significant pressure has to be applied to deform
them.


And some will hang like an uncooked pizza - I have yet to hear any *audible*
consequence therefrom, but what were the records? I'm always curious!!

:-)

"Keith G" wrote


There's all sorts of horse**** to do with coupling/supporting records
(vacuums, clamps, felts, rubber mats, glass platters &c. &c.) and plenty
of followers of each and every 'theory' - you just go with what you like,
I find. And I have to say I have never been able to tell the difference
between similarly good recordings on the various thicknesses of vinyl - a
good example that springs to mind is a series of compilations called....

'Reflections'! (CBS10034 to name but a few)


Jeez, I just Googled and there's a fekk'n *pandemic* of them!!!

http://www.musicstack.com/listings.c...USD&aid=wax-fm

Can't speak for them all - I only had a couple of them and gave one of them
away!!

Keith G said...

Which are on really *whippy* vinyl but which are beautifully recorded
and
sound fine! (I might use that one for the Tic Tac Test later!)

I have the first
Now That's What I Call Music
Virgin Now 1
which is a double album from 1983 and quite floppy, but sounds very good
indeed, it has been very carefully equalised/mastered to fit 8 x 3/4
minute tracks on each side. Comparison with these versions and the
originals on 12" 45 or cd reveals a huge reduction in the bass but the
Now versions sound faster and not so cumbersome and in many ways
preferable.


And some will hang like an uncooked pizza - I have yet to hear any *audible*
consequence therefrom,

Can't say that I've ever noticed anything either. Though I suspect that
the later thinner lp's don't seem to be so susceptible to damage,
different formulation of springier vinyl perhaps?

I'm currently using a record mat made from a nylon? mesh covered with
foamed plastic, this seems to make a noticeable reduction in surface
noise, though it may be due to the change in tracking angle caused by
the extra height or both, whatever? I'm pretty pleased with the sound
I'm getting from my humble Pioneer PL-112D and Audio Technica AT110E

but what were the records? I'm always curious!!

The 1965 was bought because it is a 10" 33rpm and in superb condition.
Good string sound and a very nice mono recording had me tangoing around
with walking stick.
Mantovani and His Orchestra
Selection from album of Favourite Tango's
Decca LF.1175

The 1966 was acquired because I love Judith Durham's soaring voice.
Also very good condition, not a tick or pop to be heard.

The Seekers
Come the Day
Columbia SCX 6093



The worst sound in the world is someone saying:

"It took us two trips to the tip to dump all those lp's"

Read and weep for lost glories.
http://www.btinternet.com/~unsteadyken/classlplist.html

The remnants are here...
http://www.btinternet.com/~unsteadyken/lplist.html

I keep a record of my records in a spreadsheet.

--
Ken O'Meara
http://www.btinternet.com/~unsteadyken/

"UnsteadyKen" wrote in message
...
Keith G said...

Which are on really *whippy* vinyl but which are beautifully recorded
and
sound fine! (I might use that one for the Tic Tac Test later!)


I did - see other posts.



I have the first
Now That's What I Call Music
Virgin Now 1
which is a double album from 1983 and quite floppy, but sounds very good
indeed, it has been very carefully equalised/mastered to fit 8 x 3/4
minute tracks on each side. Comparison with these versions and the
originals on 12" 45 or cd reveals a huge reduction in the bass but the
Now versions sound faster and not so cumbersome and in many ways
preferable.


OK, good.




And some will hang like an uncooked pizza - I have yet to hear any
*audible*
consequence therefrom,

Can't say that I've ever noticed anything either. Though I suspect that
the later thinner lp's don't seem to be so susceptible to damage,
different formulation of springier vinyl perhaps?


Yes, the thinner discs do seem to be less 'sooty/carbony' than some of the
earlier, more rigid pressings and they do certainly feel more pliable and
robust. Try this - bend one of the 'thinnies' in half 'til the edges touch,
then let it spring back and put it on and play it!! :-)

(The only music medium of today that will still work a thousand years from
now!! ;-)



I'm currently using a record mat made from a nylon? mesh covered with
foamed plastic, this seems to make a noticeable reduction in surface
noise, though it may be due to the change in tracking angle caused by
the extra height or both, whatever?


Could be - you'd have to play with the VTA and SRA (rake) to see what works
best. I've used all sorts of platters and mats - all the way from a massive
acrylic platter with a clamp (as Don rightly says) to the inverted tin lid
I've got on my current setup and I really can't say there's been the sort of
difference that a lost of people and most magazines get into a piff about.

One thing I do know is for seriously fast bass you need a massive plinth and
no suspension at all!



I'm pretty pleased with the sound
I'm getting from my humble Pioneer PL-112D and Audio Technica AT110E


I'm not surprised, you've got good, honest kit there - I'm a *big* fan of
the AT110E myself!




but what were the records? I'm always curious!!

The 1965 was bought because it is a 10" 33rpm and in superb condition.
Good string sound and a very nice mono recording had me tangoing around
with walking stick.
Mantovani and His Orchestra
Selection from album of Favourite Tango's
Decca LF.1175


Mantovani is always a delight, I have a superb 'round the world' boxed set
as well as a few 'loose' discs.


The 1966 was acquired because I love Judith Durham's soaring voice.
Also very good condition, not a tick or pop to be heard.

The Seekers
Come the Day
Columbia SCX 6093


OK, if you like 'soaring', try Nana Moussaka:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhc7M...eature=related

"Keith G" wrote in message


I have yet to
hear any *audible* consequence therefrom, but what were
the records? I'm always curious!!


Given all the other bad things that happen naturally while vinyl is being
played...

But, here's a better test.

(1) Support the LP around the edges, not in the middle of the grooves as
shown by the picture on your web site.

(2) With the lid open and the room quiet, record a quiet groove being
played.

(3) With the lid open and the room filled with the sound of say, pink noise,
record the same quiet groove being played.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message


I have yet to
hear any *audible* consequence therefrom, but what were
the records? I'm always curious!!


Given all the other bad things that happen naturally while vinyl is being
played...

But, here's a better test.

(1) Support the LP around the edges, not in the middle of the grooves as
shown by the picture on your web site.

(2) With the lid open and the room quiet, record a quiet groove being
played.

(3) With the lid open and the room filled with the sound of say, pink
noise, record the same quiet groove being played.


Forget all that, all I'm interested in is whether or not one can actually
*hear* the difference between point support and flat on the platter when
listening (without a lid). You obviously managed to find your way to my
picture and sound samples - it's this simple: which of the 3 clips are with
the record flat on the mat and which are on the Tic Tacs? Can you *in any
way shape* tell?

For the rest, here are the samples:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample1.mp3

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample2.mp3

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample3.mp3

As per:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...tImperials.jpg

(Note the Mint Imperials are *unopened*! ;-)

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:32:43 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
m...
"Keith G" wrote in message


I have yet to
hear any *audible* consequence therefrom, but what were
the records? I'm always curious!!


Given all the other bad things that happen naturally while vinyl is being
played...

But, here's a better test.

(1) Support the LP around the edges, not in the middle of the grooves as
shown by the picture on your web site.

(2) With the lid open and the room quiet, record a quiet groove being
played.

(3) With the lid open and the room filled with the sound of say, pink
noise, record the same quiet groove being played.


Forget all that, all I'm interested in is whether or not one can actually
*hear* the difference between point support and flat on the platter when
listening (without a lid). You obviously managed to find your way to my
picture and sound samples - it's this simple: which of the 3 clips are with
the record flat on the mat and which are on the Tic Tacs? Can you *in any
way shape* tell?

For the rest, here are the samples:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample1.mp3

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample2.mp3

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample3.mp3

As per:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...tImperials.jpg

(Note the Mint Imperials are *unopened*! ;-)


I'm going for No 2 being the Mint Imperial recording. The problem is
that with only 3 supports, the rumble peak is at half the frequency,
which makes it harder to see.

d

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
news:4aad73cb.40552140@localhost...
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:32:43 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


Forget all that, all I'm interested in is whether or not one can actually
*hear* the difference between point support and flat on the platter when
listening (without a lid). You obviously managed to find your way to my
picture and sound samples - it's this simple: which of the 3 clips are
with
the record flat on the mat and which are on the Tic Tacs? Can you *in any
way shape* tell?

For the rest, here are the samples:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample1.mp3

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample2.mp3

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample3.mp3

As per:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...tImperials.jpg

(Note the Mint Imperials are *unopened*! ;-)


I'm going for No 2 being the Mint Imperial recording. The problem is
that with only 3 supports, the rumble peak is at half the frequency,
which makes it harder to see.


Whaaa...??

OK. I'm not going to drag this out - Recording No. 1 was on the 3 Tic Tacs.
(Not Mint Imperials - I bloody said they were *not* opened!!) The other two
clips (nos 2 and 3) were both with the record flat on the mat. (I did 3
separate recordings to throw you clever 'analysis' buggers off! ;-)

The thing is, forgetting the measurements and pretty pictures for a moment,
who TF can tell any difference simply by listening?

The really stupid thing is the 'Tic Tac' recording ***almost*** sounds a
leetle bit better than the other two, to me...!!!???

(Which is why I don't knock people who like to buy snake oil products, when
they are absolutely certain they hear improvements! ;-)

On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:59:18 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
news:4aad73cb.40552140@localhost...
On Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:32:43 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


Forget all that, all I'm interested in is whether or not one can actually
*hear* the difference between point support and flat on the platter when
listening (without a lid). You obviously managed to find your way to my
picture and sound samples - it's this simple: which of the 3 clips are
with
the record flat on the mat and which are on the Tic Tacs? Can you *in any
way shape* tell?

For the rest, here are the samples:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample1.mp3

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample2.mp3

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...onsSample3.mp3

As per:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/shown...tImperials.jpg

(Note the Mint Imperials are *unopened*! ;-)


I'm going for No 2 being the Mint Imperial recording. The problem is
that with only 3 supports, the rumble peak is at half the frequency,
which makes it harder to see.


Whaaa...??

OK. I'm not going to drag this out - Recording No. 1 was on the 3 Tic Tacs.
(Not Mint Imperials - I bloody said they were *not* opened!!) The other two
clips (nos 2 and 3) were both with the record flat on the mat. (I did 3
separate recordings to throw you clever 'analysis' buggers off! ;-)

The thing is, forgetting the measurements and pretty pictures for a moment,
who TF can tell any difference simply by listening?

The really stupid thing is the 'Tic Tac' recording ***almost*** sounds a
leetle bit better than the other two, to me...!!!???

(Which is why I don't knock people who like to buy snake oil products, when
they are absolutely certain they hear improvements! ;-)




I already said the effect was in itself inaudible. It is the large
signal handling that is compromised. Hefty bass will tend to overload
prematurely.

d
--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com