Making my record player sound better
 

"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 06:45:54 +1100, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

**IGNORE THIS ADVICE! This is extremely bad advice. Any faults with the
existing equipment will permanently damage any (expensive) test recording
(IOW: Subsequent playback will likely reveal faults that do not exist, due
to prior damage). The equipment MUST be fully and completely checked,
BEFORE
using any form of test recording. Other than this, quite seriously bad
piece
of advice, Mr Krueger is correct. A test recording is a good idea. AFTER
performing the requisite mechanical checks and adjustments, of course.


If it may only be played on a perfectly set up system, what is a test
record meant to test?

**You need to read up and understand how a turntable operates, before you
engage in such a discussion. After you do, the answer will be obvious.
Fundamentally, however, a TT is a purely mechanical system. As a
consequence, the system must be mechanically 'perfect' BEFORE dynamic tests
are conducted. Essentially, that means all static measurements and tests
must be performed before dynamic tests (playing a record) can be done. Mr
Krueger's idea of using a test record first, runs the very real (and very
probable) risk of causing irreparable damage to that test disk. As a
consequence, that damage will lead to spurious results if used a second
time.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Making my record player sound better
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:



Understood. It seems, according to posters on the Oz group, that EMI
Australia had a poor reputation for pressings. Presumably the plant is
now closed?

In the UK also, EMI had a rather poor reputation, which has been
discussed here on UKRA many times. Jim L has had particularly
disappointing experiences with their product and level of service.

Judging by comments from other people I knew at the time, and from
magazine
articles, etc, I doubt my experience was anywhere close to being unique in
that respect.

Indeed.

Interestingly, the old EMI plant at Hayes, UK, now owned by an
independent manufacturer is turning out excellent work.

TBH I doubt the problem was with the machinery per se.

No, or course not.

It was almost
certainly with them being driven by bean-counters to make as many LPs as
they could, as quickly and cheaply as they could. So to hell with making
pressings with care, keeping things clean, etc.

Demand was indeed huge - resulting in fast pressing cycles, and probably
corner cutting which did not aways lead to a product as high in quality as
it could/should have been in some instances. It seems strange to me now
tha the pressing rate was inversely proportional to the "percieved quality"
of the LP. So that new issues, and prestige classical productions were
manufactured more slowly. Budget label products were coming off the
line at a very fast rate indeed. I don't know the economics of pressing -
I never had much to do with the bean-counters, but perhaps each press
had to produce a certain value, in monetary terms, of product per shift.

Once again, this is probably due to much slower pressing cycles, the use
of virgin vinyl (no recycled vinyl) as raw material, and imnproved QC.

Happy to agree with that as a reason, although so far as I know, I've not
personally had any of their recent LPs so can't say from direct
experience.

One curio I've noted over the years is the impression than in many
countries they tended to rate highly 'imports' from elsewhere over their
LPs made 'at home'. Does make me wonder if various factories tended to
take
more care with export copies than with those for the 'home audience'.

I am not sure that export pressings were given special attention.
But I know that British Decca and German Teldec and DGG were
considered generally to be better than most.

Usually, metalwork was sent to overseas plants which produced
pressings for the local market. Similarly artwork was also sent,
and sleeves were printed locally. I recall when at RCA, that Abba
was the exception. There was a list of territories to which only
fiinished pressings were sent - probably due to the fact that there
was some doubt that factories in these territories would
do a consistently good job in pressing and printing.

Iain

Making my record player sound better
 

Iain Churches wrote:

Demand was indeed huge - resulting in fast pressing cycles, and probably
corner cutting which did not aways lead to a product as high in quality as
it could/should have been in some instances. It seems strange to me now
tha the pressing rate was inversely proportional to the "percieved quality"
of the LP. So that new issues, and prestige classical productions were
manufactured more slowly. Budget label products were coming off the
line at a very fast rate indeed. I don't know the economics of pressing -
I never had much to do with the bean-counters, but perhaps each press
had to produce a certain value, in monetary terms, of product per shift.


In the early 80's the price per finished unit was around 47p + v.a.t.
from Hayes...


--
David Kennedy

http://www.anindianinexile.com

Making my record player sound better
 

"David Kennedy" wrote in message
o.uk...
Iain Churches wrote:

Demand was indeed huge - resulting in fast pressing cycles, and probably
corner cutting which did not aways lead to a product as high in quality
as
it could/should have been in some instances. It seems strange to me now
tha the pressing rate was inversely proportional to the "percieved
quality"
of the LP. So that new issues, and prestige classical productions were
manufactured more slowly. Budget label products were coming off the
line at a very fast rate indeed. I don't know the economics of
pressing -
I never had much to do with the bean-counters, but perhaps each press
had to produce a certain value, in monetary terms, of product per shift.


In the early 80's the price per finished unit was around 47p + v.a.t. from
Hayes...

Is this the price which they charged third party
customers, or the in-house price?

Iain

Making my record player sound better
 

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"D.M. Procida"
wrote in

I'm quite happy taking things apart and making
mechanical adjustments, but I haven't done much messing
about with record players.

Obtain a good test record (technical tests of tracking
and the like) and see which tracks are actually giving
you problems. The titles of the tracks will give you a
clue as to a more specific definition of the problem. It
will then at least be fairly easy to determine when the
problem is addressed.

**IGNORE THIS ADVICE! This is extremely bad advice.

Trevor's out making trouble again. Tit-for-tat and all that.

Any
faults with the existing equipment will permanently
damage any (expensive) test recording (IOW: Subsequent
playback will likely reveal faults that do not exist, due
to prior damage).

Only if the problems are really severe, and usually only after a number of
playings.

Let's face it, the most expensive test records cost only a fraction of the
cost of a decent LP playback system, and are in some sense expendible. I've
usually bought them in pairs, and hold one in reserve.

OTOH, if you find a problem, fix that problem and continue to have
unexpected problems playing a test record, there is a possibility that a
damaged test record is the source of the problem.

The equipment MUST be fully and
completely checked, BEFORE using any form of test
recording.

Begging the question, why use a test record at all if the equipment has
already been thoroughly checked?

Other than this, quite seriously bad piece of
advice, Mr Krueger is correct.

Ah, I am dispensed a little mercy.

A test recording is a good idea. AFTER performing the requisite mechanical
checks
and adjustments, of course.

I'm going to take a flyer here and hope that you wouldn't use a test record
until some basic checks have been made.

Making my record player sound better
 

Iain Churches wrote:

Is this the price which they charged third party
customers, or the in-house price?

Iain

That was the price charged to us as an independent. Hayes was handy
being close to us in central London and, to be honest, no one really
cared about the quality of the product provided that the majority of
them made some kind of noise when you stuck them on a deck. If we had
anything important then Philips were the preferred option but /much/
more expensive at around 60p.

The major cost was not the product but the recording and everything else
was secondary to that.

--
David Kennedy

http://www.anindianinexile.com

Making my record player sound better
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:


It was almost certainly with them being driven by bean-counters to
make as many LPs as they could, as quickly and cheaply as they could.
So to hell with making pressings with care, keeping things clean, etc.

Demand was indeed huge - resulting in fast pressing cycles, and probably
corner cutting which did not aways lead to a product as high in quality
as it could/should have been in some instances. It seems strange to me
now tha the pressing rate was inversely proportional to the "percieved
quality" of the LP. So that new issues, and prestige classical
productions were manufactured more slowly. Budget label products were
coming off the line at a very fast rate indeed. I don't know the
economics of pressing - I never had much to do with the bean-counters,
but perhaps each press had to produce a certain value, in monetary
terms, of product per shift.

In terms of the outcome I formed two impressions. unintended pun!

One was that classical music allowed clicks and other manufacturing defects
to be audible when the same defect would have passed unnoticed with many
pop/rock issues as the level of the music would mask them. Hence producing
classical LPs free of audible defects is actually much harder than
pop/rock. Then factor in that the music is more likely to be of a type that
the listener has heard live, so more likely to notice if the sound is
unrealistic than for studio created pop.

The other was that - against the point you make above - the assumption was
that *recording* classical was a matter of prestige but that there was less
money in *selling* it than pop/rock, so although they may have pressed with
a slower cycle, they didn't take more care in other critical ways. Result
being superb master recordings that didn't come though in the end product.

However I have no direct knowledge of what went on in any of the factories,
etc. I can only judge by output. I am quite sure that many of those
involved did care, and did their best to make good products. Equally, I'm
also sure that some others didn't. The strength of a chain is determined by
the weakest link, alas.

Also, as I think I've said before. My situation was that I tended to prefer
the artists and works from EMI, so that may well unbalance my recollection
against them compared with other companies. I took more EMI LPs back for
replacement because I more often bought an EMI LP for the promised content.

My own experience in manufacture in other areas left me also with the
distinct feeling that small companies have the advantage that everyone can
see if everyone else is doing their job as the results are visible to all
and anyone can talk to anyone. In effect this makes it easier to keep an
ethos where all those who matter pull together and take responsibility. And
people help each other out as they can see it will help *them* as well as
all others concerned.

Bigger companies allow people (and departments) to 'play games' and 'office
politics' as their individual success may depend more (in their eyes) on
this and mere customers are beyond their horizon. They can also mean you
get situations where bean counters insist on buying crap raw materials for
cheapness, or shorten production cycles and impose this on the poor bods
who have to make the product. This makes the bean counters look great at
board meetings as they can show "how much money they have saved" and then
pass the buck of having more products returned as faulty to someone else.
All else fails, blame the customer or the slave running the machine.

You can also make similar distinctions between private companies and
shareholder ones.

However the economies of scale, marketing etc, tend to give advantages to
big companies that have no relationship to product quality. And then
Gresham's Law takes over... :-)

All generalisations, though. But ones that seem to me to have some
solidity.

BTW I still have the copy of HFN with a cover pic showing a set of LPs
being tested - at EMI IIRC. This caused a lot of amusement amongst readers
as so may of the test decks had their big red 'fault' light lit up! I
think the pic was supplied by the company PR dept. Red faces as well as red
lights, I guess... :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Making my record player sound better
 

"David Kennedy" wrote in message
...
Iain Churches wrote:

Is this the price which they charged third party
customers, or the in-house price?

Iain

That was the price charged to us as an independent. Hayes was handy being
close to us in central London and, to be honest, no one really cared about
the quality of the product provided that the majority of them made some
kind of noise when you stuck them on a deck.

That's very sad:-(

If we had anything important then Philips were the preferred option but
/much/ more expensive at around 60p.

I don't know if Transco were still in business by that time.
They had a very good reputationas an independent plant,
and might have been a better alternative. But is looks
as though at that time you were more concerned about
cost than quality.

The major cost was not the product but the recording and everything else
was secondary to that.

Did the unit price you quoted include mastering
and metalwork, and for what quantity of pressings?

Iain

Making my record player sound better
 

Iain Churches wrote:
"David wrote in message
...
Iain Churches wrote:

Is this the price which they charged third party
customers, or the in-house price?

Iain

That was the price charged to us as an independent. Hayes was handy being
close to us in central London and, to be honest, no one really cared about
the quality of the product provided that the majority of them made some
kind of noise when you stuck them on a deck.

That's very sad:-(


Have you _ever_ heard the Anti-Nowhere League...

If we had anything important then Philips were the preferred option but
/much/ more expensive at around 60p.

I don't know if Transco were still in business by that time.
They had a very good reputationas an independent plant,
and might have been a better alternative. But is looks
as though at that time you were more concerned about
cost than quality.

The major cost was not the product but the recording and everything else
was secondary to that.

Did the unit price you quoted include mastering
and metalwork, and for what quantity of pressings?

No. We did the mastering, costs were for a run of around 25,000+

--
David Kennedy

http://www.anindianinexile.com

Making my record player sound better
 

On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:56:57 +0000, Keith G wrote:

D.M. Procida wrote:
Keith G wrote:

My record player sounds pretty good, on the whole (it's a Linn Basik
with Linn arm and cartridge that I got about 17 or 18 years ago).

However, on some records, it can sound a bit glassy.
Valve amplification and/or phono stage usually cures most ills with
vinyl replay kit, but what cartridge are you using?

It's a Linn K5.

I hadn't thought it would be an amplification problem, but more likely
to do with the mechanical set-up.

Daniele


OK. First step is to try a new stylus - an AT-95E will fit and work
fine, if look a little strange. 22 spons from Mantra:

https://shop.mantra-audio.co.uk/acat...ca_stylus.html


But double check the fit first, to be certain...


I don't think you can do that. IIRC the K5 stylus is bonded in. It would
make more sense to change the cartridge for an AT-95E. It's similar in
many ways and has the benefit of a changeable stylus. 34 quid from same
place.

--
Mick (Working in a M$-free zone!)
Web: http://www.nascom.info
Filtering everything posted from googlegroups to kill spam.

Making my record player sound better
 

mick wrote:
On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:56:57 +0000, Keith G wrote:

D.M. Procida wrote:
Keith G wrote:

My record player sounds pretty good, on the whole (it's a Linn Basik
with Linn arm and cartridge that I got about 17 or 18 years ago).

However, on some records, it can sound a bit glassy.
Valve amplification and/or phono stage usually cures most ills with
vinyl replay kit, but what cartridge are you using?
It's a Linn K5.

I hadn't thought it would be an amplification problem, but more likely
to do with the mechanical set-up.

Daniele

OK. First step is to try a new stylus - an AT-95E will fit and work
fine, if look a little strange. 22 spons from Mantra:

https://shop.mantra-audio.co.uk/acat...ca_stylus.html


But double check the fit first, to be certain...


I don't think you can do that. IIRC the K5 stylus is bonded in.

Are you sure? Perhaps you were pulling it forward instead of down.
The K9 stylus isn't glued in.

--
Eiron.

Making my record player sound better
 

On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 16:13:58 +0000, Eiron wrote:

snip

Are you sure? Perhaps you were pulling it forward instead of down. The
K9 stylus isn't glued in.


Nope, that's why I said IIRC! ;-)
I've never had a K5 so I can't be sure. I just thought that I read it
somewhere.

Ha... Looks like I was wrong. Just found this:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analo...ement-linn-k5-
stylus.html
It seems that the ATN95E leaves a (harmless) gap between the stylus
housing and the cartridge body. It can be just left or filled with blu-
tack.

--
Mick (Working in a M$-free zone!)
Web: http://www.nascom.info
Filtering everything posted from googlegroups to kill spam.

Making my record player sound better
 

mick wrote:

Are you sure? Perhaps you were pulling it forward instead of down. The
K9 stylus isn't glued in.


Nope, that's why I said IIRC! ;-)
I've never had a K5 so I can't be sure. I just thought that I read it
somewhere.

Ha... Looks like I was wrong. Just found this:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analo...ement-linn-k5-
stylus.html
It seems that the ATN95E leaves a (harmless) gap between the stylus
housing and the cartridge body. It can be just left or filled with blu-
tack.

Wouldn't filling it with blu-tac completely change its mass and balance
and other significant properties?

Daniele

Making my record player sound better
 

"D.M. Procida"
wrote in
message

mick wrote:

Are you sure? Perhaps you were pulling it forward
instead of down. The K9 stylus isn't glued in.


Nope, that's why I said IIRC! ;-)
I've never had a K5 so I can't be sure. I just thought
that I read it somewhere.

Ha... Looks like I was wrong. Just found this:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analo...ement-linn-k5-
stylus.html
It seems that the ATN95E leaves a (harmless) gap between
the stylus housing and the cartridge body. It can be
just left or filled with blu- tack.

Wouldn't filling it with blu-tac completely change its
mass and balance and other significant properties?

The amount of Blu Tack and its low density suggests that there would
probably be some difference, but you should be able to rebalance the arm for
good results.

Making my record player sound better
 

D.M. Procida wrote:
mick wrote:

Are you sure? Perhaps you were pulling it forward instead of down. The
K9 stylus isn't glued in.

Nope, that's why I said IIRC! ;-)
I've never had a K5 so I can't be sure. I just thought that I read it
somewhere.

Ha... Looks like I was wrong. Just found this:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analo...ement-linn-k5-
stylus.html
It seems that the ATN95E leaves a (harmless) gap between the stylus
housing and the cartridge body. It can be just left or filled with blu-
tack.

Wouldn't filling it with blu-tac completely change its mass and balance
and other significant properties?

Daniele


Yes, possibly for the better if the arm/cart setup was properly adjusted
but just don't bother - you get a little gap, you forget it 20 minutes
later!

Better yet - bin the K5 and grab a new AT110E for notta lotta money....

Making my record player sound better
 

mick wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 16:13:58 +0000, Eiron wrote:

snip
Are you sure? Perhaps you were pulling it forward instead of down. The
K9 stylus isn't glued in.


Nope, that's why I said IIRC! ;-)
I've never had a K5 so I can't be sure. I just thought that I read it
somewhere.

Ha... Looks like I was wrong. Just found this:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analo...ement-linn-k5-
stylus.html
It seems that the ATN95E leaves a (harmless) gap between the stylus
housing and the cartridge body. It can be just left or filled with blu-
tack.



I have done the AT stylus thing myself and it works fine, but I can't
remember now if it was a K5 or a K9...!!

Making my record player sound better
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"D.M. Procida"
wrote in

I'm quite happy taking things apart and making
mechanical adjustments, but I haven't done much messing
about with record players.

Obtain a good test record (technical tests of tracking
and the like) and see which tracks are actually giving
you problems. The titles of the tracks will give you a
clue as to a more specific definition of the problem. It
will then at least be fairly easy to determine when the
problem is addressed.

**IGNORE THIS ADVICE! This is extremely bad advice.

Trevor's out making trouble again. Tit-for-tat and all that.

**Well, no. Your advice is monumentally stupid.


Any
faults with the existing equipment will permanently
damage any (expensive) test recording (IOW: Subsequent
playback will likely reveal faults that do not exist, due
to prior damage).

Only if the problems are really severe, and usually only after a number of
playings.

**WRONG! A chipped stylus will cause immediate and permanent damage.


Let's face it, the most expensive test records cost only a fraction of the
cost of a decent LP playback system, and are in some sense expendible.
I've usually bought them in pairs, and hold one in reserve.

**WRONG! A good test record will typically cost more than an average stylus.


OTOH, if you find a problem, fix that problem and continue to have
unexpected problems playing a test record, there is a possibility that a
damaged test record is the source of the problem.

**The way to fix the problem is to perform ALL the static tests and checks
FIRST. I've run across alleged techs like you in the past. They end up
costing clients money. You're the sort of person who tells a client to swap
speaker connections, if one channel is down. In the automotive business,
you'd tell a person whose front tyres are being scrubbed, to try a new set
of tyres BEFORE performing the requisite static checks to steering geometry.
It's wrong and you are wrong. Pull your head in, admit your error and we can
move on.


The equipment MUST be fully and
completely checked, BEFORE using any form of test
recording.

Begging the question, why use a test record at all if the equipment has
already been thoroughly checked?

**A test record is really only useful for determining the absolute
performance of a fully functioning TT. It is not desirable to use one to
determine a fault that can be determined by other, less destructive,
methods.


Other than this, quite seriously bad piece of
advice, Mr Krueger is correct.

Ah, I am dispensed a little mercy.

**Like a broken (analogue) clock, you are not wrong 100% of the time.


A test recording is a good idea. AFTER performing the requisite
mechanical checks
and adjustments, of course.

I'm going to take a flyer here and hope that you wouldn't use a test
record until some basic checks have been made.

**I use test records VERY, VERY rarely. They're not necessary most of the
time. Static tests and measurements solve the vast majority of problems. A
test record merely allows one to guage absolute performance.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Making my record player sound better
 

Trevor Wilson wrote:


Like a broken (analogue) clock, you are not wrong 100% of the time.


Are you implying that a broken (digital) clock would be wrong 100% of the time?


--
Bill Coombes

Making my record player sound better
 

"bcoombes" bcoombes@orangedotnet wrote in message
...
Trevor Wilson wrote:


Like a broken (analogue) clock, you are not wrong 100% of the time.


Are you implying that a broken (digital) clock would be wrong 100% of the
time?

**Possibly. It depends on the failure mode.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Making my record player sound better
 

Trevor Wilson wrote:
"bcoombes" bcoombes@orangedotnet wrote in message
...
Trevor Wilson wrote:

Like a broken (analogue) clock, you are not wrong 100% of the time.

Are you implying that a broken (digital) clock would be wrong 100% of the
time?

**Possibly. It depends on the failure mode.


Ok. What's an excapsulated active cicuit as a matter of interest.

--
Bill Coombes

Making my record player sound better
 

"bcoombes" bcoombes@orangedotnet wrote in message
o.uk...
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"bcoombes" bcoombes@orangedotnet wrote in message
...
Trevor Wilson wrote:

Like a broken (analogue) clock, you are not wrong 100% of the time.

Are you implying that a broken (digital) clock would be wrong 100% of
the time?

**Possibly. It depends on the failure mode.


Ok.

**Good. I'm pleased we have established that.

What's an excapsulated active cicuit as a matter of interest.

**No idea. 'excapsulated' and 'cicuit' are not words I am familiar with.
Perhaps you could refer to an English dictionary, before you post again.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Making my record player sound better
 

Trevor Wilson wrote:
"bcoombes" bcoombes@orangedotnet wrote in message
o.uk...
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"bcoombes" bcoombes@orangedotnet wrote in message
...
Trevor Wilson wrote:

Like a broken (analogue) clock, you are not wrong 100% of the time.

Are you implying that a broken (digital) clock would be wrong 100% of
the time?
**Possibly. It depends on the failure mode.


Ok.

**Good. I'm pleased we have established that.

What's an excapsulated active cicuit as a matter of interest.

**No idea. 'excapsulated' and 'cicuit' are not words I am familiar with.
Perhaps you could refer to an English dictionary, before you post again.


Well a rather nice looking used Nakamichi CA-5 on your website is advertised as
having 'all excapsulated active cicuits'...just wondered what they were.


--
Bill Coombes

Making my record player sound better
 

"bcoombes" bcoombes@orangedotnet wrote in message
o.uk...
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"bcoombes" bcoombes@orangedotnet wrote in message
o.uk...
Trevor Wilson wrote:
"bcoombes" bcoombes@orangedotnet wrote in message
...
Trevor Wilson wrote:

Like a broken (analogue) clock, you are not wrong 100% of the time.

Are you implying that a broken (digital) clock would be wrong 100% of
the time?
**Possibly. It depends on the failure mode.


Ok.

**Good. I'm pleased we have established that.

What's an excapsulated active cicuit as a matter of interest.

**No idea. 'excapsulated' and 'cicuit' are not words I am familiar with.
Perhaps you could refer to an English dictionary, before you post again.


Well a rather nice looking used Nakamichi CA-5 on your website is
advertised as having 'all excapsulated active cicuits'...just wondered
what they were.

**Read it again. You may assume that it was a typo.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Making my record player sound better
 

In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"D.M. Procida" wrote in
message

My record player sounds pretty good, on the whole (it's a Linn Basik
with Linn arm and cartridge that I got about 17 or 18 years ago).

However, on some records, it can sound a bit glassy. I don't know if
that's the right word. In louder passages - especially towards the
end of a side, I *think* - sustained notes seem to have a brittle
edge to them.

Because nearly all of my vinyl records are second-hand, it's hard to
know whether the records are worn or the player isn't playing them
well.

Are there some basic adjustments I should check, or would I be better
taking it to a hi-fi shop and asking them to check it's set it up
properly?

I'm quite happy taking things apart and making mechanical
adjustments, but I haven't done much messing about with record
players.

Obtain a good test record (technical tests of tracking and the like)
and see which tracks are actually giving you problems. The titles of
the tracks will give you a clue as to a more specific definition of
the problem. It will then at least be fairly easy to determine when
the problem is addressed.

**IGNORE THIS ADVICE! This is extremely bad advice.

I doubt that is so "bad" in this case TBH. Note the comments the OT
originally made wrt to "sound pretty good on the whole" but then explains
audible problems with some discs or near end of side.

Any faults with the existing equipment will permanently damage any
(expensive) test recording

Again I doubt *any* (if by that you mean every possible kind) of faults
would do so.

From what the OT actually wrote I'd suspect that checking with a decent
test disc would be quite reasonable if he'd first checked the stylus was
clean and that aspects like playing downforce was reasonable.

I'd agree though that playing almost any disk with almost any stylus may
lead to disc wear - at least for the first playing. But I'd expect that to
be a risk with many cartridges even when setup and working as expected by
the makers with no faults.

So on the whole I don't agree with saying the advice is "extemely bad" in
this case. However what would make sense is to check what kind of test disc
and how it could be used.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Making my record player sound better
 

In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote:




Any faults with the existing equipment will permanently damage any
(expensive) test recording (IOW: Subsequent playback will likely
reveal faults that do not exist, due to prior damage).

Only if the problems are really severe, and usually only after a
number of playings.

**WRONG! A chipped stylus will cause immediate and permanent damage.

What part of the OP makes you sure he has a chipped stylus? Must admit that
what he describes doesn't sound like that to me.

TBH it sound more like the end of side and mistracking behaviours I used to
find were the norm for 'Linn' carts and stylii many years ago even when
they were in the state as sold. One of the reasons I never liked Linn
systems. So if I were him I'd tend to simply take the advice offerred by
others and get a new and better cartridge/stylus and not bother with the
one he has. Then use a test disc to check he has it setup well.

Would have commented earlier but I've been having fun with exam scripts and
a new recorder. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Making my record player sound better
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote:




Any faults with the existing equipment will permanently damage any
(expensive) test recording (IOW: Subsequent playback will likely
reveal faults that do not exist, due to prior damage).

Only if the problems are really severe, and usually only after a
number of playings.

**WRONG! A chipped stylus will cause immediate and permanent damage.

What part of the OP makes you sure he has a chipped stylus? Must admit
that
what he describes doesn't sound like that to me.

**Since I have not examined the system in question, I don't know. In such
cases, I always err on the conservative side. Without performing the
necessary static tests and measurements, one cannot predict how safe it is
to play a recording on that TT. Performing the tests is just good, logical
common-sense. Whacking a good disk on risks damage.


TBH it sound more like the end of side and mistracking behaviours I used
to
find were the norm for 'Linn' carts and stylii many years ago even when
they were in the state as sold. One of the reasons I never liked Linn
systems. So if I were him I'd tend to simply take the advice offerred by
others and get a new and better cartridge/stylus and not bother with the
one he has. Then use a test disc to check he has it setup well.

**Whilst I have no objection to installing a new stylus/cartridge on the arm
(since that is where the fault likely lies), performing basic tests and
measurements should be part of the procedure. Testing the existing set-up
with a test disk makes zero sense.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Making my record player sound better
 

In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote:




Any faults with the existing equipment will permanently damage
any (expensive) test recording (IOW: Subsequent playback will
likely reveal faults that do not exist, due to prior damage).

Only if the problems are really severe, and usually only after a
number of playings.

**WRONG! A chipped stylus will cause immediate and permanent damage.

What part of the OP makes you sure he has a chipped stylus? Must admit
that what he describes doesn't sound like that to me.

**Since I have not examined the system in question, I don't know. In
such cases, I always err on the conservative side. Without performing
the necessary static tests and measurements, one cannot predict how
safe it is to play a recording on that TT. Performing the tests is just
good, logical common-sense. Whacking a good disk on risks damage.


TBH it sound more like the end of side and mistracking behaviours I
used to find were the norm for 'Linn' carts and stylii many years ago
even when they were in the state as sold. One of the reasons I never
liked Linn systems. So if I were him I'd tend to simply take the
advice offerred by others and get a new and better cartridge/stylus
and not bother with the one he has. Then use a test disc to check he
has it setup well.

**Whilst I have no objection to installing a new stylus/cartridge on the
arm (since that is where the fault likely lies), performing basic tests
and measurements should be part of the procedure. Testing the existing
set-up with a test disk makes zero sense.

I note your opinion but do not share it. I'd recommend you re-read what the
OP actually wrote, and note the details. Looks to me like basic mistracking
due to a poor cartridge, misalignment, or normal wear. The symptoms don't
seem like a 'chipped stylus' to me.

Slainte,

jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Making my record player sound better
 

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Trevor
Wilson wrote:




Any faults with the existing equipment will
permanently damage any (expensive) test recording
(IOW: Subsequent playback will likely reveal faults
that do not exist, due to prior damage).

Only if the problems are really severe, and usually
only after a number of playings.

**WRONG! A chipped stylus will cause immediate and
permanent damage.

What part of the OP makes you sure he has a chipped
stylus? Must admit that
what he describes doesn't sound like that to me.

**Since I have not examined the system in question, I
don't know. In such cases, I always err on the
conservative side. Without performing the necessary
static tests and measurements, one cannot predict how
safe it is to play a recording on that TT. Performing the
tests is just good, logical common-sense. Whacking a good
disk on risks damage.

TBH it sound more like the end of side and mistracking
behaviours I used to
find were the norm for 'Linn' carts and stylii many
years ago even when they were in the state as sold. One
of the reasons I never liked Linn systems. So if I were
him I'd tend to simply take the advice offerred by
others and get a new and better cartridge/stylus and not
bother with the one he has. Then use a test disc to
check he has it setup well.

**Whilst I have no objection to installing a new
stylus/cartridge on the arm (since that is where the
fault likely lies), performing basic tests and
measurements should be part of the procedure. Testing the
existing set-up with a test disk makes zero sense.

That's all just a truism. Something that anybody who is experienced with
vinyl knows for sure. Good stuff, but nothing that proves any particular
point, except perhaps shedding light on why Vinyl is considered by just
about everybody to be obsolete. Not good enough and too much trouble.

Making my record player sound better
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message


I note your opinion but do not share it. I'd recommend
you re-read what the OP actually wrote, and note the
details. Looks to me like basic mistracking due to a poor
cartridge, misalignment, or normal wear.

Agreed.

The symptoms
don't seem like a 'chipped stylus' to me.

There was a local audio store that invested in a very sensitive stylus
inspection microscope. If there were any areas of a stylus that weren't
highly polished and rounded, it made them look almost like craters on the
moon. Probably paid for itself the first year!

They collected pictures of the worn stylii and put them in a looseleaf book
for public review. Very, very few were of a stylus suffering from other than
normal wear.

Actually chipping a diamond that small seems like something that would
rarely if ever happen casually or often. Diamonds are both very hard and
tough at that size. Not like the iceburgs that people put in rings.

Making my record player sound better
 

"D.M. Procida" wrote in
message
...
My record player sounds pretty good, on the whole (it's a Linn Basik
with Linn arm and cartridge that I got about 17 or 18 years ago).

However, on some records, it can sound a bit glassy. I don't know if
that's the right word. In louder passages - especially towards the end
of a side, I *think* - sustained notes seem to have a brittle edge to
them.

Because nearly all of my vinyl records are second-hand, it's hard to
know whether the records are worn or the player isn't playing them well.

Are there some basic adjustments I should check, or would I be better
taking it to a hi-fi shop and asking them to check it's set it up
properly?

I'm quite happy taking things apart and making mechanical adjustments,
but I haven't done much messing about with record players.

Daniele

Swap your cartridge with a line contact stylus for one with an elliptical
stylus.
Mike.

Making my record player sound better
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote:




Any faults with the existing equipment will permanently damage
any (expensive) test recording (IOW: Subsequent playback will
likely reveal faults that do not exist, due to prior damage).

Only if the problems are really severe, and usually only after a
number of playings.

**WRONG! A chipped stylus will cause immediate and permanent damage.

What part of the OP makes you sure he has a chipped stylus? Must admit
that what he describes doesn't sound like that to me.

**Since I have not examined the system in question, I don't know. In
such cases, I always err on the conservative side. Without performing
the necessary static tests and measurements, one cannot predict how
safe it is to play a recording on that TT. Performing the tests is just
good, logical common-sense. Whacking a good disk on risks damage.


TBH it sound more like the end of side and mistracking behaviours I
used to find were the norm for 'Linn' carts and stylii many years ago
even when they were in the state as sold. One of the reasons I never
liked Linn systems. So if I were him I'd tend to simply take the
advice offerred by others and get a new and better cartridge/stylus
and not bother with the one he has. Then use a test disc to check he
has it setup well.

**Whilst I have no objection to installing a new stylus/cartridge on the
arm (since that is where the fault likely lies), performing basic tests
and measurements should be part of the procedure. Testing the existing
set-up with a test disk makes zero sense.

I note your opinion but do not share it. I'd recommend you re-read what
the
OP actually wrote, and note the details. Looks to me like basic
mistracking
due to a poor cartridge, misalignment, or normal wear. The symptoms don't
seem like a 'chipped stylus' to me.

**I've been in the service business for more than 40 years. One of the first
things a service person does, is listen carefully to the client's complaint.
Then one ignores the client's diagnosis and a proper diagnosis is performed.
As part of the process, it is vital to perform the requisite checks and
measurements. I certainly NEVER place any of my very valuable (and now,
unobtainable) test LPs on any turntable that is not in 100% pristine
operating condition. That includes a careful check of the stylus and
geometry check. If I won't use my own test LP on a TT, I sure as Hell won't
advise a client to do so.

The fault may or may not be a chipped stylus. It is simply not worth the
risk. It is a simple matter to perform the requisite checks and
measurements. It is also common-sense. Your words:

"....due to a poor cartridge, misalignment, or normal wear..."

merely restate what I originally stated. The standard checks should be
performed first. A misaligned cartridge is quite capable of inflicting
permanent damage to an LP.

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

Making my record player sound better
 

Don Pearce wrote:

If I recorded it, would that help an expert identify the possible cause?


Please do. Save it as wav, not mp3 though.

OK, I've recorded some samples.

I presume that most people can play AIFF (.aif) and lossless compressed
audio (.m4a) files - if not, I will find something to convert it to WAV.

AIFF, 52MB: http://esquivalier.com/media/record_player.aif
Compressed, 52MB: http://esquivalier.com/media/record_player.m4a

It contains the following extracts:

0:00 Section from "If There Is Something" from the first Roxy Music
album, CD

0:58 Same section, from LP (middle of the side) - listen how the
glassiness breaks through at the edge of the synth/sax/piano notes

1:56 Section from "Street Life", from _Stranded_, CD

2:24 Same section, from LP (first track on side)

2:52 Section from "Roadrunner", from The Modern Lovers' first album,
from LP (first track on side)

3:10 Section from "Old World" on the same record, 3/4 of the way
through the side - listen to how the word "dead" at 3:27 breaks up - it
doesn't do this on my CD copy.

3:35 Section from L'Orfeo, beginning of the side
4:00 Section from the middle of the side
4:21 Section from the end of side (I think you can hear the
glassiness getting worse through the side)
Section from

Thanks for taking the time to listen, and for any advice on what the
problem might be.

Daniele

Making my record player sound better
 

On Fri, 22 Jan 2010 23:19:10 +0000,
(D.M. Procida) wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:

If I recorded it, would that help an expert identify the possible cause?


Please do. Save it as wav, not mp3 though.

OK, I've recorded some samples.

I presume that most people can play AIFF (.aif) and lossless compressed
audio (.m4a) files - if not, I will find something to convert it to WAV.

AIFF, 52MB: http://esquivalier.com/media/record_player.aif
Compressed, 52MB: http://esquivalier.com/media/record_player.m4a

It contains the following extracts:

0:00 Section from "If There Is Something" from the first Roxy Music
album, CD

0:58 Same section, from LP (middle of the side) - listen how the
glassiness breaks through at the edge of the synth/sax/piano notes

1:56 Section from "Street Life", from _Stranded_, CD

2:24 Same section, from LP (first track on side)

2:52 Section from "Roadrunner", from The Modern Lovers' first album,
from LP (first track on side)

3:10 Section from "Old World" on the same record, 3/4 of the way
through the side - listen to how the word "dead" at 3:27 breaks up - it
doesn't do this on my CD copy.

3:35 Section from L'Orfeo, beginning of the side
4:00 Section from the middle of the side
4:21 Section from the end of side (I think you can hear the
glassiness getting worse through the side)
Section from

Thanks for taking the time to listen, and for any advice on what the
problem might be.


OK, there is quite a severe problem there - you do have to listen
through the differences in mix and mastering on the pop tracks, but
that choral stuff at the end is just horrible. I seriously would not
put one of my records on that deck until it is sorted out. It isn't
just a small matter of setup either - something is broken.

I would suggest you review the suggestions that have already been put
to you and see what takes your fancy.

d

Making my record player sound better
 

"D.M. Procida" wrote

sneep


3:35 Section from L'Orfeo, beginning of the side


Thank you for that bit - it put me back on track!

:-)


4:00 Section from the middle of the side
4:21 Section from the end of side (I think you can hear the
glassiness getting worse through the side)
Section from

Thanks for taking the time to listen, and for any advice on what the
problem might be.


Assuming your tonearm moves freely throughout the entire range required
without binding, stiffness &c., I'm wondering if it isn't something as
simple as poor ot no antiskate adjustment coupled with possibly a very dirty
stylus?

If it was me I'd be thinking to sway the stylus at least and preferably the
whole cart - grab a nice, new Audio Technica AT110E for under 30 quid and
try that. You can't run a vinyl rig with just the one knackered old Linn
cart; I must have the best part of two dozen different carts here, but then
I eschew 'audiophile' turntables and like a tonearm with a removable
headshell - I could change a cart in about 20 seconds if I needed to!!

Making my record player sound better
 

"Keith G" wrote


Assuming your tonearm moves freely throughout the entire range required
without binding, stiffness &c., I'm wondering if it isn't something as
simple as poor ot no antiskate adjustment coupled with possibly a very
dirty stylus?

If it was me I'd be thinking to sway the stylus at least and preferably
the whole cart


Please substitute gibberish with words of your own choosing....

Making my record player sound better
 

Keith G wrote:

"Keith G" wrote


Assuming your tonearm moves freely throughout the entire range
required without binding, stiffness &c., I'm wondering if it isn't
something as simple as poor ot no antiskate adjustment coupled with
possibly a very dirty stylus?

If it was me I'd be thinking to sway the stylus at least and
preferably the whole cart


Please substitute gibberish with words of your own choosing....



If it was me I'd be dinking to flay the piles as yeast and prefabricate the holy
tart.


--
Bill Coombes

Making my record player sound better
 

"bcoombes" bcoombes@orangedotnet wrote in message
o.uk...
Keith G wrote:

"Keith G" wrote


Assuming your tonearm moves freely throughout the entire range required
without binding, stiffness &c., I'm wondering if it isn't something as
simple as poor ot no antiskate adjustment coupled with possibly a very
dirty stylus?

If it was me I'd be thinking to sway the stylus at least and preferably
the whole cart


Please substitute gibberish with words of your own choosing....



If it was me I'd be dinking to flay the piles as yeast and prefabricate
the holy tart.


Is more or less what I already said - is it not?

Making my record player sound better
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
If it was me I'd be thinking to sway the stylus at least and preferably
the whole cart - grab a nice, new Audio Technica AT110E for under 30
quid and try that. You can't run a vinyl rig with just the one
knackered old Linn cart; I must have the best part of two dozen
different carts here, but then I eschew 'audiophile' turntables and
like a tonearm with a removable headshell - I could change a cart in
about 20 seconds if I needed to!!

I'm curious as to why, as you so often state, vinyl gives such a wonderful
sound, 2 dozen different carts are needed? They must all sound different
to have any point. Do you own 2 dozen CD players too? Otherwise it strikes
me you're looking for a particular type of distortion that suits your mood
and or the music you're listening to. And that's before realising that to
get the best out of a cart requires careful setting up. Which takes quite
some time to do properly.

--
*Isn't it a bit unnerving that doctors call what they do "practice?"

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Making my record player sound better
 

"D.M. Procida"
wrote in
message

Don Pearce wrote:

If I recorded it, would that help an expert identify
the possible cause?


Please do. Save it as wav, not mp3 though.

OK, I've recorded some samples.

I presume that most people can play AIFF (.aif) and
lossless compressed audio (.m4a) files - if not, I will
find something to convert it to WAV.

AIFF, 52MB:
http://esquivalier.com/media/record_player.aif
Compressed, 52MB:
http://esquivalier.com/media/record_player.m4a

It contains the following extracts:

0:00 Section from "If There Is Something" from the
first Roxy Music album, CD

0:58 Same section, from LP (middle of the side) -
listen how the glassiness breaks through at the edge of
the synth/sax/piano notes

1:56 Section from "Street Life", from _Stranded_, CD

2:24 Same section, from LP (first track on side)

2:52 Section from "Roadrunner", from The Modern
Lovers' first album, from LP (first track on side)

3:10 Section from "Old World" on the same record, 3/4
of the way through the side - listen to how the word
"dead" at 3:27 breaks up - it doesn't do this on my CD
copy.

3:35 Section from L'Orfeo, beginning of the side
4:00 Section from the middle of the side
4:21 Section from the end of side (I think you can
hear the glassiness getting worse through the side)
Section from

Thanks for taking the time to listen, and for any advice
on what the problem might be.

Some of this music is such processed stuff that one wonders how to
distinguish the possibly intentinional distortion from that which is alleged
to be due to a problem with the playback equipment.

Several of the slections including the choral stuff has enough tics and
pops that it might be that they were simply loved to death.

I have to admit that it always seemed to me to be questionable with vinyl
exactly where any distortion that was heard actually came from. One nice
thing about digital is that while mastering might give it poor tone, and
excess compression make it sound flat and lifeless, there isn't a lot of
audible distortion of the kinds that are audible with much vinyl.

Making my record player sound better
 

Arny Krueger wrote:

"D.M. Procida"
wrote in
message

Don Pearce wrote:

If I recorded it, would that help an expert identify
the possible cause?


Please do. Save it as wav, not mp3 though.

OK, I've recorded some samples.

I presume that most people can play AIFF (.aif) and
lossless compressed audio (.m4a) files - if not, I will
find something to convert it to WAV.

AIFF, 52MB:
http://esquivalier.com/media/record_player.aif
Compressed, 52MB:
http://esquivalier.com/media/record_player.m4a

It contains the following extracts:

0:00 Section from "If There Is Something" from the
first Roxy Music album, CD

0:58 Same section, from LP (middle of the side) -
listen how the glassiness breaks through at the edge of
the synth/sax/piano notes

1:56 Section from "Street Life", from _Stranded_, CD

2:24 Same section, from LP (first track on side)

2:52 Section from "Roadrunner", from The Modern
Lovers' first album, from LP (first track on side)

3:10 Section from "Old World" on the same record, 3/4
of the way through the side - listen to how the word
"dead" at 3:27 breaks up - it doesn't do this on my CD
copy.

3:35 Section from L'Orfeo, beginning of the side
4:00 Section from the middle of the side
4:21 Section from the end of side (I think you can
hear the glassiness getting worse through the side)
Section from

Thanks for taking the time to listen, and for any advice
on what the problem might be.

Some of this music is such processed stuff that one wonders how to
distinguish the possibly intentinional distortion from that which is alleged
to be due to a problem with the playback equipment.

That's why I included the CD versions! You can hear how the synth on the
first extract almost breaks through into glassiness, while the piano
clearly doesn't. Yet on the LP, it's audible on both.

The Modern Lovers LP is very unprocessed, even by the standards of 1972.

Daniele