Media player to DAC
 

Hi
Is this the newsgroup to advise on living room [quiet] media players -
basically a HDD containing my music files connected to my DAC by digital
coax [or optical] with a window where I can see what's playing and a remote?
Don't need visual [i.e. TV out or HDMI] at all.
Any recommendations?
TIA

--
John the West Ham fan

Media player to DAC
 

In article , housetrained
wrote:
Hi Is this the newsgroup to advise on living room [quiet] media players
- basically a HDD containing my music files connected to my DAC by
digital coax [or optical] with a window where I can see what's playing
and a remote? Don't need visual [i.e. TV out or HDMI] at all. Any
recommendations? TIA

I can't comment on dedicated 'media player' devices. I just use two
computers for this sort of task.

One is a Shuttle with a large diameter fan and a large heatsink. I
disconnected the fan and replaced the standard HD with a solid state one.
Then feed the output to a DACMagic. Runs Ubuntu 9.04 and lets me play
almost any type of file, fetch net radio, BBC iPlayer etc.

The other is an Acer laptop (Xubuntu 9.04) again with a solid state disc
and with an optical spdif output. This I feed to various DACs depending on
which room it is in at the time and what else I am doing. If you 90% close
the lid the screen goes off and the batteries then last a long time before
a recharge if you are just playing audio.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Media player to DAC
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:

The other is an Acer laptop (Xubuntu 9.04) again with a solid state
disc and with an optical spdif output. This I feed to various DACs
depending on which room it is in at the time and what else I am
doing. If you 90% close the lid the screen goes off and the batteries
then last a long time before a recharge if you are just playing audio.

Jim,

Does XUbuntu demand much CPU grunt or many system resources ? I have an old
discarded laptop that I was considering pressing into service as an audio
storage machine. No SSD but it is fairly quiet.

Media player to DAC
 

In article , TonyL
wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:

The other is an Acer laptop (Xubuntu 9.04) again with a solid state
disc and with an optical spdif output. This I feed to various DACs
depending on which room it is in at the time and what else I am doing.
If you 90% close the lid the screen goes off and the batteries then
last a long time before a recharge if you are just playing audio.

Jim,

Does XUbuntu demand much CPU grunt or many system resources ? I have an
old discarded laptop that I was considering pressing into service as an
audio storage machine. No SSD but it is fairly quiet.

Xubuntu is a lot lighter than Ubuntu.

The above comment was about a new laptop that is fairly powerful and has
bags of RAM, etc. However...

My old laptop has just 192MB of RAM and the CPU type made about 8 years
ago. In tests it runs at about a fifth of the speed of my newer laptop.

It will run Xubuntu and I initially used it with that and the ROX desktop
'on top' of Xubuntu. That would do things like let me play audio files or
use FireFox to listen to the BBC iPlayer OK.

Above comments for Ubuntu/Xubuntu 9.04. I haven't tried 9.10 so can't say
about them for sure, but I assume they will be similar.

More recently I installed Crunchbang Lite Linux instead. That is even
easier to run on an old small machine. Only uses about 80MB of RAM.

If you can still find a copy, the issue of 'Linux Format' cover-dated April
has over half a dozen 'light' distros of Linux on its cover DVD. These let
you try a 'live' version of many of them. i.e. you don't need to lose your
existing OS, etc. I tried Puppy Linux as it is small and comes with a cut
down version of ROX. But I found it wasn't very good. So I then tried
Crunchbang.

Crunchbang is a cut down and tweaked version of Ubuntu that is (IMHO) even
lighter, quicker, and easier than Xubuntu. One nice feature if you try it
on an old machine is that is displays on the desktop 'wallpaper' a
continually updated list of things like RAM usage/spare, CPU loading
percentage, and swap useage. That means you can try it 'live' and quickly
see if the machine has enough space, CPU power, etc, for what you try to
do. It comes with a media player, etc.

If you like Crunchbang you can then install other apps from the same
repositories as Xubuntu. Only limit being the hardware you have.

So I'd suggest giving Xubuntu and/or Crunchbang a go as a 'live' install
first and see if they work OK. Then, depending how cautious you are, try
making them dual boot with something else, or install them if happy.

During the last few days I've been concentrating my 'computing' on getting
rpcemu (an emulator for a RiscOS machine) running on my newer laptop. But
when I get a chance I'll drag the older laptop out of its dark corner, run
it, and tell you some of the memory/cpu values I get for normal use.

There are some Linux distros which I think are specially aimed at 'media'
uses. But they may well be aimed at video as well, so need more in the way
of hardware. Can't say as I've never tried them.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Media player to DAC
 

On 04 Apr, wrote:
In article , TonyL
wrote:


During the last few days I've been concentrating my 'computing' on
getting rpcemu (an emulator for a RiscOS machine) running on my newer
laptop. But when I get a chance I'll drag the older laptop out of its
dark corner, run it, and tell you some of the memory/cpu values I get
for normal use.

Now done that. Results as follows

1) Boot up into the default Crunchbang lite system, but with ROX added on
top of openbox for the desktop. RAM used = 58 MB, CPU when not doing
anything = 3 percent load.

2) Start up FireFox and play 'Jazz Record Requests' using the BBC iPlayer.
RAM used now up to 122 MB, CPU now 15 percent loading

3) Quit FireFox and start VLC (Media Player). Play a 44/16 LPCM Wave file
taken from an audio CD. RAM used now 89MB, CPU 9 percent.

I can't recall all the CPU details but it is an Intel 2GHz single core
laptop type that they sold 7-8 years ago,

I tended to get similar results with Xubuntu 9.04. But if you just want to
play music files and use the iPlayer I'd say Crunchbang lite is a bit
lighter and does the job.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Media player to DAC
 

Jim Lesurf writes:

On 04 Apr, wrote:
snip

I tended to get similar results with Xubuntu 9.04. But if you just want to
play music files and use the iPlayer I'd say Crunchbang lite is a bit
lighter and does the job.

Crunchbang has been my production system at home for over a year
now. It works like charm as far as I am concerned. My computer is a
six or so years old Shuttle. I don't use it as a media center so
I can't say anything on that subject.

/Martin

Media player to DAC
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:
On 04 Apr, wrote:
In article , TonyL
wrote:


During the last few days I've been concentrating my 'computing' on
getting rpcemu (an emulator for a RiscOS machine) running on my newer
laptop. But when I get a chance I'll drag the older laptop out of its
dark corner, run it, and tell you some of the memory/cpu values I get
for normal use.

Now done that. Results as follows


Thanks Jim, much appreciated. I'll dig out the old machine and load up
Crunchbang Linux for starters...see what it can do.

Media player to DAC
 

On 04/04/2010 07:56, housetrained wrote:
Hi
Is this the newsgroup to advise on living room [quiet] media players -
basically a HDD containing my music files connected to my DAC by digital
coax [or optical] with a window where I can see what's playing and a
remote? Don't need visual [i.e. TV out or HDMI] at all.
Any recommendations?
TIA


The problem (as I'm sure you know!) is the display.

There used to be a number of small media players with a small LCD to
display track etc, but these seem to have been replaced with video
oriented equivalents with no display. I'm sure you'll find one one on
ebay, but I found the display too small, and the software too clunky.
Can be noisy too, with screaming tiny fans.

Or, a bigger PC size case with a display/remote. Thermaltake Mozart for
example. These are fine but tend to be big, you're left to design out
noise (not trivial), and again, I find the displays too small if you've
got a collection of music.

Or, bring the display to the remote, and house a PC/Mac out of
site-sight/sound, or silence it, or buy a quiet unit to start with.
Philips SRM7500 seems to do what you might need - I have no experience
of it. I use an ipod Touch - works very well with the Remote Application
and iTunes. As I'd guess will the iPad.

Or, a streaming device like a Logitech Squeezebox Duet. Looks neat to
me, but a very expensive variation on the Touch theme.

Rob

Media player to DAC
 

At this time I'm using a Roku soundbridge opticalled into my DAC. This gets
the info from the computer via a router in another room. Just thought it
would be nice to have a HDD in the music room and leave the Computer etc
switched off.
The Philips handset looks OK but on it's own it's about the same price as
the Roku which comes handsetted already.
Thanks to all you good people for the advice and maybe someone will make an
external HDD with display and programme to make my wishes come true.
Many thanks.
--
John the West Ham fan





"Rob" wrote in message
...
On 04/04/2010 07:56, housetrained wrote:
Hi
Is this the newsgroup to advise on living room [quiet] media players -
basically a HDD containing my music files connected to my DAC by digital
coax [or optical] with a window where I can see what's playing and a
remote? Don't need visual [i.e. TV out or HDMI] at all.
Any recommendations?
TIA


The problem (as I'm sure you know!) is the display.

There used to be a number of small media players with a small LCD to
display track etc, but these seem to have been replaced with video
oriented equivalents with no display. I'm sure you'll find one one on
ebay, but I found the display too small, and the software too clunky. Can
be noisy too, with screaming tiny fans.

Or, a bigger PC size case with a display/remote. Thermaltake Mozart for
example. These are fine but tend to be big, you're left to design out
noise (not trivial), and again, I find the displays too small if you've
got a collection of music.

Or, bring the display to the remote, and house a PC/Mac out of
site-sight/sound, or silence it, or buy a quiet unit to start with.
Philips SRM7500 seems to do what you might need - I have no experience of
it. I use an ipod Touch - works very well with the Remote Application and
iTunes. As I'd guess will the iPad.

Or, a streaming device like a Logitech Squeezebox Duet. Looks neat to me,
but a very expensive variation on the Touch theme.

Rob

Media player to DAC
 

In article , housetrained
wrote:

Thanks to all you good people for the advice and maybe someone will make
an external HDD with display and programme to make my wishes come true.


The have made it. But they generally call it "a computer" running relevant
software. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Media player to DAC
 

On 06/04/2010 09:18, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In , housetrained
wrote:

Thanks to all you good people for the advice and maybe someone will make
an external HDD with display and programme to make my wishes come true.


The have made it. But they generally call it "a computer" running relevant
software. :-)


This was the sort of thing I had in mind:

http://www.tradestead.com/wholesale-...side_p247.html

or this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ib-mp302-b-M...49668&sr =1-3

I think they run variations of Linux - as I say, it was all too clunky
for me, and digital audio out doesn't seem to be supported.

Media player to DAC
 

On 06/04/2010 08:12, housetrained wrote:
At this time I'm using a Roku soundbridge opticalled into my DAC. This
gets the info from the computer via a router in another room. Just
thought it would be nice to have a HDD in the music room and leave the
Computer etc switched off.
The Philips handset looks OK but on it's own it's about the same price
as the Roku which comes handsetted already.
Thanks to all you good people for the advice and maybe someone will make
an external HDD with display and programme to make my wishes come true.
Many thanks.

It's tricky - I forgot to mention the Brennan unit which looks neat, but
again, too expensive for what it is IMO (although it does amplify), and
accessing a track would be a pain. You could get a Mac Mini/iTouch for
not much more, or a mini PC for a lot less.

Media player to DAC
 

In article , Rob
wrote:
On 06/04/2010 09:18, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In , housetrained
wrote:

Thanks to all you good people for the advice and maybe someone will
make an external HDD with display and programme to make my wishes
come true.


The have made it. But they generally call it "a computer" running
relevant software. :-)


This was the sort of thing I had in mind:

http://www.tradestead.com/wholesale-...side_p247.html

I'd be put off by the mention of a fan. I don't want any mechanical 'play
along' noises from the unit I'd use!

or this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ib-mp302-b-M...49668&sr =1-3

I think they run variations of Linux - as I say, it was all too clunky
for me, and digital audio out doesn't seem to be supported.

I'd also be wary of finding that a 'packaged' system became obsolete when
people started using a new file format, etc.

That said, if the system runs Linux and has enough resources you could
probably alter it later on.

So far as I can see, almost any old computer can easily be used for a
'server' these days and with Linux you can get light OS/software
combinations that will run on old kit. If the machine doesn't have its own
digital output then they should work with something like a DACMagic or one
of the cheaper USB-SPDIF boxes.

Main problem from my POV is mechanical noises. However if someone is
serious about this but doesn't to pay out for a fanless SSD machine I guess
they could shove the old 'server' in a sideboard and network control to it
from something like a netbook sitting beside them. The point about this
approach is that it is flexible and updatable. The snag is that you have to
spend time sorting it out, of course. Alternative is to pay dosh to someone
else to supply a system that might end up not being quite what you want
later on...

As with traditional audio, some will 'DIY', others will throw cash at
'experts', etc.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Media player to DAC
 

On 06/04/2010 12:42, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In , Rob
wrote:
On 06/04/2010 09:18, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In , housetrained
wrote:

Thanks to all you good people for the advice and maybe someone will
make an external HDD with display and programme to make my wishes
come true.


The have made it. But they generally call it "a computer" running
relevant software. :-)


This was the sort of thing I had in mind:

http://www.tradestead.com/wholesale-...side_p247.html

I'd be put off by the mention of a fan. I don't want any mechanical 'play
along' noises from the unit I'd use!


Quite so - I had one and it had a fan 1cm dia I think, and made a right
racket. In fact, disconnecting it didn't raise temperatures too much -
it hardly did anything.

or this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ib-mp302-b-M...49668&sr =1-3

I think they run variations of Linux - as I say, it was all too clunky
for me, and digital audio out doesn't seem to be supported.

I'd also be wary of finding that a 'packaged' system became obsolete when
people started using a new file format, etc.


I think they use FAT variants so they can attach to a Windows machine.

That said, if the system runs Linux and has enough resources you could
probably alter it later on.

So far as I can see, almost any old computer can easily be used for a
'server' these days and with Linux you can get light OS/software
combinations that will run on old kit. If the machine doesn't have its own
digital output then they should work with something like a DACMagic or one
of the cheaper USB-SPDIF boxes.


Quite so. But bulky, power hungry, and as you say, noisy . . .

Main problem from my POV is mechanical noises. However if someone is
serious about this but doesn't to pay out for a fanless SSD machine I guess
they could shove the old 'server' in a sideboard and network control to it
from something like a netbook sitting beside them. The point about this
approach is that it is flexible and updatable. The snag is that you have to
spend time sorting it out, of course. Alternative is to pay dosh to someone
else to supply a system that might end up not being quite what you want
later on...

As with traditional audio, some will 'DIY', others will throw cash at
'experts', etc.


It does seem to be something that's difficult to get right, different
needs maybe. Naim and Linn have some interesting variations, but at a price.

Media player to DAC
 

In article , Rob
wrote:
On 06/04/2010 12:42, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In , Rob
wrote:
On 06/04/2010 09:18, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In , housetrained


I'd also be wary of finding that a 'packaged' system became obsolete
when people started using a new file format, etc.


I think they use FAT variants so they can attach to a Windows machine.

Sorry, I meant encoding formats - mp3, AAC, FLAC, etc. With your own
computer you can easily install these. But with a packaged device you might
run into problems, depending on how flexible the design may be.


As with traditional audio, some will 'DIY', others will throw cash at
'experts', etc.


It does seem to be something that's difficult to get right, different
needs maybe. Naim and Linn have some interesting variations, but at a
price.

I have the feeling that a lot of the problem is that many computer hardware
makers and vendors are a mix of clueless and unconcerned about audio. The
attitude is that "You can hear something, so it works!" This exposes buyers
to the situation where to get something that works *correctly* as a package
you get presented with Sooloos, Naim, etc, etc. i.e. expensive badged
packages you are expected to throw your money at.

No doubt they work very nicely. But given that playing a soundfile only
demands a trivial load in modern CPU terms this should be something almost
any old computer can do with ease without any fans whirring. Alas people
have been 'educated' sic to go, "X GHz, whoo! that's fast!" and "3 GB
RAM. Massive!", without thinking that a *silent* *low power* slower and
simpler setup would actually do such tasks with less fuss and cost.

That said, people perhaps have bypassed this to some extent without being
aware of it when they use ARM variants, etc, in other mobile devices. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Media player to DAC
 

"housetrained" wrote in message
...
Hi
Is this the newsgroup to advise on living room [quiet] media players -
basically a HDD containing my music files connected to my DAC by digital
coax [or optical] with a window where I can see what's playing and a
remote? Don't need visual [i.e. TV out or HDMI] at all.
Any recommendations?
TIA

One solution to this problem is to store your music on a NAS which you keep
well away from you listening area, and then use something like a Logitech
Transporter to read the music from the NAS and pass it to your DAC.

As an alternative to the Transporter you could use a laptop with a M2Tech
HiFace USB/SPIF converter.

The transporter is expensive. I don't know of an alternative, but I do know
that there are a number of Apple products in this area.

You would need to use a PC to rip the music from CDs and store in on the
NAS.

You then have to address such issues as to what file format to use e.g. flac
and how to keep backup copies.

It would appear that the HiFi world is moving in this direction. Perhaps
partly for convenience, and because it offers the opportunity to use better
than CD quality digital music.


--
Michael Chare

Media player to DAC
 

"Michael Chare" wrote

As an alternative to the Transporter you could use a laptop with a M2Tech
HiFace USB/SPIF converter.

Why specify that particular USB/SPDIF converter?, other converters are
available at lower cost but equal performance.


It would appear that the HiFi world is moving in this direction. Perhaps
partly for convenience, and because it offers the opportunity to use
better than CD quality digital music.


Convenience is clearly the major driver in this move. But I'm not at all
convinced by "better than CD quality". As we know very few recordings on CD
actually use more than a small fraction of the dynamic range available from
CD, whilst few people old enough to be able to afford this sort of kit can
hear the full range of frequencies present on a CD, let alone anything
supposedly "better".

What limits the quality of domestically reproduced music nowadays is the
quality of the original recording, the disc mastering, the loudspeakers and
the acoustic environment of the listening area.

David.

Media player to DAC
 

In article , Michael
Chare scribeth thus
"housetrained" wrote in message
. ..
Hi
Is this the newsgroup to advise on living room [quiet] media players -
basically a HDD containing my music files connected to my DAC by digital
coax [or optical] with a window where I can see what's playing and a
remote? Don't need visual [i.e. TV out or HDMI] at all.
Any recommendations?
TIA

One solution to this problem is to store your music on a NAS which you keep
well away from you listening area, and then use something like a Logitech
Transporter to read the music from the NAS and pass it to your DAC.

As an alternative to the Transporter you could use a laptop with a M2Tech
HiFace USB/SPIF converter.

The transporter is expensive. I don't know of an alternative, but I do know
that there are a number of Apple products in this area.

You would need to use a PC to rip the music from CDs and store in on the
NAS.

You then have to address such issues as to what file format to use e.g. flac
and how to keep backup copies.

It would appear that the HiFi world is moving in this direction. Perhaps
partly for convenience, and because it offers the opportunity to use better
than CD quality digital music.



Better than CD eh?, so just where do you obtain this from?...
--
Tony Sayer

Media player to DAC
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Michael Chare" wrote

As an alternative to the Transporter you could use a laptop with a
M2Tech HiFace USB/SPIF converter.

Why specify that particular USB/SPDIF converter?, other converters are
available at lower cost but equal performance.

I just happened to know of it, and I don't know of any alternatives, but I
am happy to improve my knowledge!

It was an example not a recommendation.


It would appear that the HiFi world is moving in this direction. Perhaps
partly for convenience, and because it offers the opportunity to use
better than CD quality digital music.


whilst few people old enough to be able to afford this sort of kit can
hear the full range of frequencies present on a CD, let alone anything
supposedly "better".

Yes I have proved that point, as I found that my daughter could quite easily
distinguish between 16/44 and 24/96 flac music files when played via my
hifi, where as I struggle to do this.


What limits the quality of domestically reproduced music nowadays is the
quality of the original recording, the disc mastering, the loudspeakers
and the acoustic environment of the listening area.

That has been the case for a long time.


--
Michael Chare

Media player to DAC
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...


Better than CD eh?, so just where do you obtain this from?...
--

There are a number of websites which offer downloads.


--
Michael Chare

Media player to DAC
 

In article , Michael
Chare scribeth thus
"tony sayer" wrote in message
...


Better than CD eh?, so just where do you obtain this from?...
--

There are a number of websites which offer downloads.



Are they really any better?..
--
Tony Sayer

Media player to DAC
 

In article ,
Michael
Chare wrote:
"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Michael Chare" wrote


whilst few people old enough to be able to afford this sort of kit can
hear the full range of frequencies present on a CD, let alone
anything supposedly "better".

Yes I have proved that point, as I found that my daughter could quite
easily distinguish between 16/44 and 24/96 flac music files when played
via my hifi, where as I struggle to do this.

How was one of the files produced from the other?

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Media player to DAC
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Michael
Chare scribeth thus
"tony sayer" wrote in message
...


Better than CD eh?, so just where do you obtain this from?...
--

There are a number of websites which offer downloads.



Are they really any better?..
--

Depends whether your ears (and hifi) are good enough to tell the difference,
and whether you brain appreciates the difference it.


--
Michael Chare

Media player to DAC
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message

In article
,
Michael
Chare wrote:
"David Looser" wrote in
message ...
"Michael Chare" wrote


whilst few people old enough to be able to afford this
sort of kit can hear the full range of frequencies
present on a CD, let alone anything supposedly "better".

Yes I have proved that point, as I found that my
daughter could quite easily distinguish between 16/44
and 24/96 flac music files when played via my hifi,
where as I struggle to do this.

How was one of the files produced from the other?

More to the point, how were the issues of time synch, level match, and
listener bias dealt with?

Media player to DAC
 

"Michael Chare" wrote in
message
o.uk
"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Michael Chare scribeth
thus
"tony sayer" wrote in message
...


Better than CD eh?, so just where do you obtain this
from?... --

There are a number of websites which offer downloads.



Are they really any better?..
--

Depends whether your ears (and hifi) are good enough to
tell the difference, and whether you brain appreciates
the difference it.

I'll believe this when I hear of results from bias-controlled listening
tests.

Media player to DAC
 

"Michael Chare" wrote

Yes I have proved that point, as I found that my daughter could quite
easily distinguish between 16/44 and 24/96 flac music files when played
via my hifi, where as I struggle to do this.

How about 16/96, can your daughter tell the difference between that and
24/96? or for that matter how about distinguishing between 16/48 and */96?

What I'm suggesting is that for domestic playback 24 bit depth is always
pointless (ie. nobody can hear the difference) and that the slight increase
in sampling rate to 48kHz (as found on DVDs etc.) will possibly satisfy most
of the minority who can hear past 20kHz.

What limits the quality of domestically reproduced music nowadays is the
quality of the original recording, the disc mastering, the loudspeakers
and the acoustic environment of the listening area.

That has been the case for a long time.

Not in the days of vinyl. Then the disc playing system was also significant.

David.

Media player to DAC
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Michael
Chare wrote:
"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Michael Chare" wrote


whilst few people old enough to be able to afford this sort of kit can
hear the full range of frequencies present on a CD, let alone
anything supposedly "better".

Yes I have proved that point, as I found that my daughter could quite
easily distinguish between 16/44 and 24/96 flac music files when played
via my hifi, where as I struggle to do this.

How was one of the files produced from the other?


In the brief test I used two pairs of sample files downloaded from the Naim
website.

I just asked my daughter if she could hear any difference, and then to
explain the difference that she heard.


--
Michael Chare

Media player to DAC
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Michael Chare" wrote

Yes I have proved that point, as I found that my daughter could quite
easily distinguish between 16/44 and 24/96 flac music files when played
via my hifi, where as I struggle to do this.

How about 16/96, can your daughter tell the difference between that and
24/96? or for that matter how about distinguishing between 16/48 and */96?

What I'm suggesting is that for domestic playback 24 bit depth is always
pointless (ie. nobody can hear the difference) and that the slight
increase in sampling rate to 48kHz (as found on DVDs etc.) will possibly
satisfy most of the minority who can hear past 20kHz.


I just conducted the test using the two pairs of flac music files that I
had. You may well be right.


What limits the quality of domestically reproduced music nowadays is the
quality of the original recording, the disc mastering, the loudspeakers
and the acoustic environment of the listening area.

That has been the case for a long time.

Not in the days of vinyl. Then the disc playing system was also
significant.

My point was that the other factors still applied. :-)


--
Michael Chare

Media player to DAC
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message

In article
,
Michael
Chare wrote:
"David Looser" wrote in
message ...
"Michael Chare" wrote


whilst few people old enough to be able to afford this
sort of kit can hear the full range of frequencies
present on a CD, let alone anything supposedly "better".

Yes I have proved that point, as I found that my
daughter could quite easily distinguish between 16/44
and 24/96 flac music files when played via my hifi,
where as I struggle to do this.

How was one of the files produced from the other?

More to the point, how were the issues of time synch, level match, and
listener bias dealt with?

The two pairs of files that I used play at the same level, and were played
one after the other.

I did not explain what the difference might be or even why there might be a
difference in advance.


--
Michael Chare

Media player to DAC
 

In article , Michael
Chare wrote:
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Michael Chare wrote:
"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Michael Chare" wrote


whilst few people old enough to be able to afford this sort of kit
can hear the full range of frequencies present on a CD, let alone
anything supposedly "better".

Yes I have proved that point, as I found that my daughter could quite
easily distinguish between 16/44 and 24/96 flac music files when
played via my hifi, where as I struggle to do this.

How was one of the files produced from the other?


In the brief test I used two pairs of sample files downloaded from the
Naim website.

So I assume that you don't know how one was produced from the other in each
case. (I am also assuming the 'pairs' were from the same source recording.)

IIRC At least one person has analysed versions of such recordings and shown
that they have measurable differences that aren't due to a change of sample
rate or sample depth. Instead due to the producers deciding to "not level
compress the 'hi rez' version as much as the 'cd' one" or similar.

Hence in such cases a difference can easily be measured, and may be
audible, but actually tell you nothing about the difference in sample rate
or resolution being a 'cause' for said differences.

I just asked my daughter if she could hear any difference, and then to
explain the difference that she heard.

This tells you that she thought she heard a difference. But it doesn't give
you any clue to if there was any difference due to the difference in sample
rates or bit-depths.

Are the Naim files you refer to available freely? If so I'd be interested
in examining them sometime.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Media player to DAC
 

"housetrained" wrote in message
...
Hi
Is this the newsgroup to advise on living room [quiet] media players -
basically a HDD containing my music files connected to my DAC by digital
coax [or optical] with a window where I can see what's playing and a
remote? Don't need visual [i.e. TV out or HDMI] at all.
Any recommendations?
TIA

Some of Cylone ( http://www.envizage.com/ ) players/NAS drives have digital
audio out as far as I can tell. They are aimed at the visual market and get
very mixed/poor reviews on AVforums but most of the problems seem to be with
playing different typres of video and syncronizing of video/audio.
I did ask there about the digital audio out but got no replies.
Loads of info on there though.
Might be worth a look for a very cheap remotely controlled NAS drive/ music
server.

Media player to DAC
 

"David" wrote in message
Some of Cylone ( http://www.envizage.com/ ) players/NAS drives have
digital audio out as far as I can tell. They are aimed at the visual
market and get very mixed/poor reviews on AVforums but most of the
problems seem to be with playing different typres of video and
syncronizing of video/audio.
I did ask there about the digital audio out but got no replies.
Loads of info on there though.
Might be worth a look for a very cheap remotely controlled NAS drive/
music server.

Oh and if you find out anything of use can you post up here please.

Thank you

Media player to DAC
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


In the brief test I used two pairs of sample files downloaded from the
Naim website.

So I assume that you don't know how one was produced from the other in
each
case. (I am also assuming the 'pairs' were from the same source
recording.)

Yes, and I also made the same assumption.



IIRC At least one person has analysed versions of such recordings and
shown
that they have measurable differences that aren't due to a change of
sample
rate or sample depth. Instead due to the producers deciding to "not level
compress the 'hi rez' version as much as the 'cd' one" or similar.

Hence in such cases a difference can easily be measured, and may be
audible, but actually tell you nothing about the difference in sample rate
or resolution being a 'cause' for said differences.

I just asked my daughter if she could hear any difference, and then to
explain the difference that she heard.


Her description of the difference made me think that she was hearing a
difference in the bit rate.


This tells you that she thought she heard a difference. But it doesn't
give
you any clue to if there was any difference due to the difference in
sample
rates or bit-depths.

Are the Naim files you refer to available freely? If so I'd be interested
in examining them sometime.


Yes, freely available from http://www.naimlabel.com/

Let us know your thoughts!


--
Michael Chare

Media player to DAC
 

"Michael Chare" wrote in
message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message

In article
,
Michael
Chare wrote:
"David Looser" wrote in
message ...
"Michael Chare" wrote


whilst few people old enough to be able to afford this
sort of kit can hear the full range of frequencies
present on a CD, let alone anything supposedly
"better".

Yes I have proved that point, as I found that my
daughter could quite easily distinguish between 16/44
and 24/96 flac music files when played via my hifi,
where as I struggle to do this.

How was one of the files produced from the other?

More to the point, how were the issues of time synch,
level match, and listener bias dealt with?

The two pairs of files that I used play at the same
level, and were played one after the other.

I did not explain what the difference might be or even
why there might be a difference in advance.

Sighted evaluations are well-known to be useless for this kind of
comparisons.

Doing blind tests like thos one is not rocket science - it can be done on
any PC with a audio interface capable of 24/96 using free software that is
on the web. I was just testing a software ABX/ABC/hr comparator that was
written in Java, and therefore can run on any machine that supports the Sun
R6 Java run time support - which is an enormous range of operating systems
from Win7 to Mac to *nix.

Media player to DAC
 

"Michael Chare" wrote in
message
o.uk
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Michael Chare wrote:
"David Looser" wrote in
message ...
"Michael Chare" wrote


whilst few people old enough to be able to afford this
sort of kit can hear the full range of frequencies
present on a CD, let alone anything supposedly
"better".

Yes I have proved that point, as I found that my
daughter could quite easily distinguish between 16/44
and 24/96 flac music files when played via my hifi,
where as I struggle to do this.

How was one of the files produced from the other?


In the brief test I used two pairs of sample files
downloaded from the Naim website.

I just asked my daughter if she could hear any
difference, and then to explain the difference that she
heard.

Using two files from the Naim website exposes your evaluation to a vast
array of issues that are irrelevant to the sample rate.

Rule number one is that when you do comparisons like this, you take the high
sample rate file and downsample it yourself, which is easy to do with free
software that can downloaded from the web.

Then you compare the two using a software ABX DBT comparator.

Media player to DAC
 

"Michael Chare" wrote in
message
o.uk
\
Are the Naim files you refer to available freely? If so
I'd be interested in examining them sometime.


Yes, freely available from http://www.naimlabel.com/

Let us know your thoughts!

Which files?

Media player to DAC
 

In article ,
Michael
Chare wrote:
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


Hence in such cases a difference can easily be measured, and may be
audible, but actually tell you nothing about the difference in sample
rate or resolution being a 'cause' for said differences.

I just asked my daughter if she could hear any difference, and then
to explain the difference that she heard.


Her description of the difference made me think that she was hearing a
difference in the bit rate.

OK. The difficulty with that is that it is essentially basing your
conclusion on a series of assumptions. Could easily have been some other
factor.


Are the Naim files you refer to available freely? If so I'd be
interested in examining them sometime.


Yes, freely available from http://www.naimlabel.com/

Let us know your thoughts!

Well, don't hold you breath waiting as it may well be ages before my 'round
tuit' arrives! :-)

And as Arny has asked, can you say which particular files you (and your
daughter) compared? Might be best if I tried those if I can.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Media player to DAC
 

On 08/04/2010 12:45, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Michael wrote in
message
o.uk
"Jim wrote in message
...
In article
,
Michael wrote:
"David wrote in
message ...
"Michael wrote


whilst few people old enough to be able to afford this
sort of kit can hear the full range of frequencies
present on a CD, let alone anything supposedly
"better".

Yes I have proved that point, as I found that my
daughter could quite easily distinguish between 16/44
and 24/96 flac music files when played via my hifi,
where as I struggle to do this.

How was one of the files produced from the other?


In the brief test I used two pairs of sample files
downloaded from the Naim website.

I just asked my daughter if she could hear any
difference, and then to explain the difference that she
heard.

Using two files from the Naim website exposes your evaluation to a vast
array of issues that are irrelevant to the sample rate.

Rule number one is that when you do comparisons like this, you take the high
sample rate file and downsample it yourself, which is easy to do with free
software that can downloaded from the web.


Why's that - are Naim not to be trusted?

Then you compare the two using a software ABX DBT comparator.


Do you happen to know of a Mac variant?

Media player to DAC
 

On 08/04/2010 10:07, David wrote:
wrote in message
Some of Cylone ( http://www.envizage.com/ ) players/NAS drives have
digital audio out as far as I can tell. They are aimed at the visual
market and get very mixed/poor reviews on AVforums but most of the
problems seem to be with playing different typres of video and
syncronizing of video/audio.
I did ask there about the digital audio out but got no replies.
Loads of info on there though.
Might be worth a look for a very cheap remotely controlled NAS drive/
music server.

Oh and if you find out anything of use can you post up here please.

Thank you


Indeed!

Media player to DAC
 

In article , Rob
wrote:
On 08/04/2010 12:45, Arny Krueger wrote:


Rule number one is that when you do comparisons like this, you take
the high sample rate file and downsample it yourself, which is easy to
do with free software that can downloaded from the web.


Why's that - are Naim not to be trusted?

Erm... I've not checked, but I presume they are making the files available
for people to listen to rather than use as examples for assessing the
effect of *only* changing the sample rate and/or bit-depth.

Not sure what "trust" has to do with that *unless* Naim have stated that
the *only change* was to downsample one version. Even then I'd personally
want to know the details of the process to be able to understand what
effect that may or may not have.

However I would "trust" then to do their best to make good sounding
versions if their purpose is to produce material people want to listen to.
Without other evidence, though, I don't know what they'd think the best way
to do that. So don't know what they would do to make versions at different
sample rates, etc.

When doing such things on a scientific/academic basis you want to know all
the details as they may affect the results for reasons that differ from the
assumptions that otherwise might be made.

The context in such terms is that I think others have already found that
some dual format commercial releases show things like differences in level
compression, made because those producing the versions assumed something
different was 'better' for the different (assumed) target audiences for the
two versions.

There are also various choices that could be made when using one version to
create the other, that then vary the output. e.g. I understand that at one
time Tony Faulkner preferred a simplistic form of downsampling that doesn't
actually meet the sampling theorem. He preferred the results, presumably
because he thought it made a 'change' that he liked. Or because it
minimised in-band filtering at the expense of aliasing.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html