"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Probably not. I am inclined to think what Jim suggested may be correct -
this project fell victim to an automated generic pop mastering process,
where heavy compression and brickwall limiting are the norm..

It's the norm for some little tin pot duplicating company to do this sort
of 'mastering'? I find that beggars belief.

Most mastering facilities have modern facilities with an "impressive"
array of equipment. Considerable investment has been made.


This begs the question: "Did anyone actually listen to the music?"

This whole mastering thing has always confused me (except for vinyl). If a
mix is produced in the studio that satisfies the client, why is that
messed with afterwards?

Indeed. A question I have been asking myself for many years.

Gus Dudgeon (producer for Elton John and David Bowie) whom I
knew well from my Decca days, summed it up nicey when he stated
"whether we like it or not, CD mastering has become an extension
of the creative process"

And that's the difference, in a nut shell. The objectives are not the same.
In vinyl disc mastering the aim was to copy the information from
analogue tape as accurately as possible to acetate disc. Giving the
shortcomings of the medium, the results achieved were often amazingly
good.

In CD mastering, this "extension of the creative process" and an
attempt to give the public what (they think) they want, can often
result in severe overprocessing..

This is a problem seldom encountered in classical and jazz
recordings. I have often been at pop mastering sessions,
invited by the artist or the client as a neutral pair of ears, and
come away bewildered at the seemingly irrepressible desire
to inflict GBH to what was a perfectly presentable studio master.

However, this is the first time that such a thing has happened
to a project in which I have been involved. And as there was
no mastering session (the production discs were to have been
made 1:1 from a CD sent to the plant, via a glass master) I
shall be interested to hear their explanation.

Iain

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...


It's the norm for some little tin pot duplicating company to do this
sort of 'mastering'? I find that beggars belief.

Most mastering facilities have modern facilities with an "impressive"
array of equipment. Considerable investment has been made.

That may support the suspicion I describe below...


This begs the question: "Did anyone actually listen to the music?"

This whole mastering thing has always confused me (except for vinyl).
If a mix is produced in the studio that satisfies the client, why is
that messed with afterwards?

Indeed. A question I have been asking myself for many years.

My suspicion is that this is due to a combination of factors.

One is the mindless assumption this is "needed" and so applied without any
sign of thought.

The other is that competing companies may want to offer what *they* think
is the 'most attractive' service and give themselves a 'selling point'. In
this case, given the above assumption, that they can make a 'louder' (must
be 'better' in their mind) result than alternative disc makers.

So I'd guess they equate such mindless behaviour as them being "cheaper and
better" than their competitors. Perhaps a survival adaptation to a pop
music world where the faith is "louder is better".

Gus Dudgeon (producer for Elton John and David Bowie) whom I knew well
from my Decca days, summed it up nicey when he stated "whether we like
it or not, CD mastering has become an extension of the creative process"

In the end I assume that depends on who is paying.

And that's the difference, in a nut shell. The objectives are not the
same. In vinyl disc mastering the aim was to copy the information from
analogue tape as accurately as possible to acetate disc. Giving the
shortcomings of the medium, the results achieved were often amazingly
good.

I am less convinced that it was such a golden age for 'accuracy' in the 1:1
sense. :-)

Partly because so many of the LPs I bought back then were audibly
imperfect.

Partly because - as I recall - some people who 'cut' the discs traded on
having a reputation for making the result 'sound better' by tweaking it in
various mystical ways. If all that was needed was a careful flat transfer
I'm not clear how they did that. Although I appreciate that skill, care,
and experience are required to ensure the cutting goes correctly.

Again, the 'guru' disc cutters seemed to mainly be a feature of the 'pop'
world where they would scratch their sign on the land at the inner end of
the side. The master mason leaving his mark... they wished. :-)

So although I'd agree that many of the tapes leaving the classical studios
would have sounded excellent. I'm much less confident that the LPs would
have sounded the same. I can remember Golden Guinea, but not Golden Age.
;-

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...


SNIP


http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...Comparison.png


The common practice of leveling has been applied, it is indeed
unpleasent and apparently is the "default" process.
Do a google using these terms:
"Fletcher-Munson curves"
"cd audio leveling"
I've never undertaken pro mastering but my understanding is that
somewhere in the contract or whatever, that it would state "leveling"
would be applied by default unless otherwise/specifically requested.
Have a look at whatever piece of paper you signed for this mastering,
I doubt you'd have legal redress...

On Mon, 25 Oct 2010 18:13:41 +0100, "Fed Up Lurker"
wrote:


"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...


SNIP


http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...Comparison.png


The common practice of leveling has been applied, it is indeed
unpleasent and apparently is the "default" process.
Do a google using these terms:
"Fletcher-Munson curves"
"cd audio leveling"
I've never undertaken pro mastering but my understanding is that
somewhere in the contract or whatever, that it would state "leveling"
would be applied by default unless otherwise/specifically requested.
Have a look at whatever piece of paper you signed for this mastering,
I doubt you'd have legal redress...




Not sure what you are saying here. Fletcher Munson curves are a
representation of equal loudness vs frequency. That has nothing
whatever to do with this.

And neither is this levelling. It is mega compression followed by
brickwall limiting plus what looks suspiciously like digital clipping.
The whole thing is just a disaster.

d

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 25 Oct 2010 18:13:41 +0100, "Fed Up Lurker"
wrote:


"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...


SNIP


http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...Comparison.png


The common practice of leveling has been applied, it is indeed
unpleasent and apparently is the "default" process.
Do a google using these terms:
"Fletcher-Munson curves"
"cd audio leveling"
I've never undertaken pro mastering but my understanding is that
somewhere in the contract or whatever, that it would state "leveling"
would be applied by default unless otherwise/specifically requested.
Have a look at whatever piece of paper you signed for this mastering,
I doubt you'd have legal redress...




Not sure what you are saying here. Fletcher Munson curves are a
representation of equal loudness vs frequency. That has nothing
whatever to do with this.


Yes it does!

And neither is this levelling. It is mega compression followed by
brickwall limiting plus what looks suspiciously like digital clipping.
The whole thing is just a disaster.

d


You're wrong again!

Eight minutes after I posted you leapt in without knowing the subject.
I gave you a clue, to try a search on: "cd audio leveling"
But you didn't.
If you see how the thread evolved it is discernable that others did
do such a subsequent search.
I've only just found your reply, so I've just did the search for you.
"cd audio leveling" produces thousands of results, so I'm just providing
the link to the first:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

It was probably the default option when Iain selected their services.
The contract of sorts probably stipulated such processing would be
undertaken by default. If the tickbox was ticked... no redress!
If Iain is 100% confident that this was not a default option brought
to his attention then he has grounds to reject, but he hasn't come
back to update, or has he?

On Fri, 5 Nov 2010 12:02:15 -0000, "Fed Up Lurker"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 25 Oct 2010 18:13:41 +0100, "Fed Up Lurker"
wrote:


"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...


SNIP


http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...Comparison.png


The common practice of leveling has been applied, it is indeed
unpleasent and apparently is the "default" process.
Do a google using these terms:
"Fletcher-Munson curves"
"cd audio leveling"
I've never undertaken pro mastering but my understanding is that
somewhere in the contract or whatever, that it would state "leveling"
would be applied by default unless otherwise/specifically requested.
Have a look at whatever piece of paper you signed for this mastering,
I doubt you'd have legal redress...




Not sure what you are saying here. Fletcher Munson curves are a
representation of equal loudness vs frequency. That has nothing
whatever to do with this.


Yes it does!

And neither is this levelling. It is mega compression followed by
brickwall limiting plus what looks suspiciously like digital clipping.
The whole thing is just a disaster.

d


You're wrong again!

Eight minutes after I posted you leapt in without knowing the subject.
I gave you a clue, to try a search on: "cd audio leveling"
But you didn't.
If you see how the thread evolved it is discernable that others did
do such a subsequent search.
I've only just found your reply, so I've just did the search for you.
"cd audio leveling" produces thousands of results, so I'm just providing
the link to the first:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

It was probably the default option when Iain selected their services.
The contract of sorts probably stipulated such processing would be
undertaken by default. If the tickbox was ticked... no redress!
If Iain is 100% confident that this was not a default option brought
to his attention then he has grounds to reject, but he hasn't come
back to update, or has he?


Ok, I'll play. I just googled "cd audio levelling" and got two precise
matches. One for the Wikipedia article you cite and another for an
Ubuntu forum. All the rest were single word matches - unless you count
the "shopping results for CD audio levelling" bit, of course.

I presume you skimmed the wiki article and found a passing,
peripheral mention of the Fletcher Munson curves - a nice technical
bit to drop into your post no doubt.

As for audio levelling itself - it is not maximizing volume. It is a
legitimate part of mastering a multi-track CD. It is the process of
making sure that all the tracks (that are supposed to) sound about the
same volume. What had happened to Iain's track was nothing whatever to
do with levelling.

As for knowing nothing about the subject, in my misspent youth I
worked at Pye studios in Marble Arch. I was taught there to master and
cut vinyl. Now vinyl actually needs to be mastered, unlike a CD which
as far as I am concerned should be burned exactly the way it arrived
from the mix.

d

So what actually happened as I'm obviously not able to read the thousand
words, nor paint you as the song goes.
Brian

--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________


"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...
I have recently been involved in a string quartet
recording. It has been a challenging project.
Everyone was delighted with the performance
and the sound on the production master which
was sent to a CD plant in the UK for 1:1 duplication.

When a run of 500 copies is required, a glass
master normally needs to be made for replication.
The client gave permission for this to be done by
the CD plant, on the understanding that no audible
changes were to be made, as the production master
was exactly what was requiired.

I asked to be informed when the finished discs had
been received. Yesterday, I received a phone call
from a very disappointed cellist.

She said, "Every nuance of our performance has
been destroyed. We sound like the musical equivalent
of ballet dancers in jack boots!"

This morning, I had the chance to compare a
portion of the envelope from our production
master (the left-hand side of the pic) with the finished
CD (right had side)

Take a look:
It's not pretty!

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...Comparison.png


Iain

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...
I have recently been involved in a string quartet
recording. It has been a challenging project.
Everyone was delighted with the performance
and the sound on the production master which
was sent to a CD plant in the UK for 1:1 duplication.

When a run of 500 copies is required, a glass
master normally needs to be made for replication.
The client gave permission for this to be done by
the CD plant, on the understanding that no audible
changes were to be made, as the production master
was exactly what was requiired.

I asked to be informed when the finished discs had
been received. Yesterday, I received a phone call
from a very disappointed cellist.

She said, "Every nuance of our performance has
been destroyed. We sound like the musical equivalent
of ballet dancers in jack boots!"

This morning, I had the chance to compare a
portion of the envelope from our production
master (the left-hand side of the pic) with the finished
CD (right had side)

Take a look:
It's not pretty!

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...Comparison.png


Iain



"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
So what actually happened as I'm obviously not able to read the thousand
words, nor paint you as the song goes.
Brian


The artists' description of it "sounding like the musical
equivalent of ballet dancers in jack boots!" will give you
some idea, Brian.

The dynamic of the performance has been totally
destroyed by heavy compression, copious make up
gain, and then very heavy brick-wall limiting, resulting
in severe clipping - fine for heavy metal but is totally
inappropriate for a classical string quartet.

Iain

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
The dynamic of the performance has been totally
destroyed by heavy compression, copious make up
gain, and then very heavy brick-wall limiting, resulting
in severe clipping - fine for heavy metal but is totally
inappropriate for a classical string quartet.

My feeling is clipping is unacceptable for anything.

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.