"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


In contrast, the sales of CD have dwindled to such an
extent that HMV have announced the closure of 60
retail outlets,

So there has not been a strong transition of CD sales
from brick-and-mortar local store to superstore and web
in Europe, as there has been in the US?

No such thing as anything like a Best Buy or Wal Mart
"Big box" store in Europe that wipes out neighborhood
stores for miles around? Of course there is, but LP bigots can only cite
statistics that suit their agenda.

Interesting how LP bigots are also so quick to cite the
loss of sales on physical media (CD) but always forget
to mention the vast increase in sales of downloads.

Perhaps the iTunes web site is blocked for internet
access from Europe? ;-)

Of course not, but such offsetting gains don't suit
their self-serving agendas.



Woah! I would say that Iain scored a 'palpable hit' hit -
Arny's gone off like he's got a slapped face!

It's the whining response from Iain's running dog that tells me I scored,
yet again.


As a confirmed vinyl bigot I can safely say I don't give
a fig what is happening to CD sales (especially in the
US),

What you said it not the issue. What Iain said is.

but *downloads* have ****-all to do with them - they
are not CDs!

You see, downloads are what LPs can never have and CDs clearly have: The
next generation technology.

It is my belief that CD sales are plummeting
and that they will soon end up a niche product like vinyl
is today.

If you haven't noticed, its not the polycarbonate that people buy and listen
to, its the bits. It's the bits that laid waste to the LP market. Matters
not whether the bits are on polycarbonate or the web, its the bits that
almost all of us listen to.

Interestingly, there is currently an advert on the telly
(or was recently - I watch only the news and recorded
progs) for a boxed set of 16 classic, original artists
Rock & Roll CDs for £29.95 - money back if not bowled
over. The tagline was 'save hundreds on the price of
downloads'...!!!

you watch ads? Your DVR is incapable of FF past them?

As they say: what goes around* goes around....

Downloads prove that nothing need go around for there to be good music.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


In contrast, the sales of CD have dwindled to such an
extent that HMV have announced the closure of 60
retail outlets,

So there has not been a strong transition of CD sales
from brick-and-mortar local store to superstore and web
in Europe, as there has been in the US?

No such thing as anything like a Best Buy or Wal Mart
"Big box" store in Europe that wipes out neighborhood
stores for miles around? Of course there is, but LP bigots can only cite
statistics that suit their agenda.

Interesting how LP bigots are also so quick to cite the
loss of sales on physical media (CD) but always forget
to mention the vast increase in sales of downloads.

Perhaps the iTunes web site is blocked for internet
access from Europe? ;-)

Of course not, but such offsetting gains don't suit
their self-serving agendas.



Woah! I would say that Iain scored a 'palpable hit' hit -
Arny's gone off like he's got a slapped face!

It's the whining response from Iain's running dog that tells me I scored,
yet again.


Stop *projecting* Arny - you were the one whining.

(The phrase 'LP bigot' says it all! ;-)




As a confirmed vinyl bigot I can safely say I don't give
a fig what is happening to CD sales (especially in the
US),

What you said it not the issue. What Iain said is.

but *downloads* have ****-all to do with them - they
are not CDs!

You see, downloads are what LPs can never have and CDs clearly have: The
next generation technology.


Zzzzz.....

How many 50 Gig BD-REs do you use?




It is my belief that CD sales are plummeting
and that they will soon end up a niche product like vinyl
is today.

If you haven't noticed, its not the polycarbonate that people buy and
listen to, its the bits.


Stoppit - you are starting to sound like an idiot.



It's the bits that laid waste to the LP market. Matters
not whether the bits are on polycarbonate or the web, its the bits that
almost all of us listen to.


Talk it up all you like - downloads are not CDs. Downloads are killing CDs.



Interestingly, there is currently an advert on the telly
(or was recently - I watch only the news and recorded
progs) for a boxed set of 16 classic, original artists
Rock & Roll CDs for £29.95 - money back if not bowled
over. The tagline was 'save hundreds on the price of
downloads'...!!!

you watch ads? Your DVR is incapable of FF past them?


What DVR? Get with the programme, Arny - I watch selected TV recordings as
mpegs on a 'dedicated' Acer Revo computer piped out via HDMI to a DLP
projector. I have hundreds stacked on hard drives, waiting to go and I can
skip the ads (where there are ads) with a click or two on the progress bar
but sometimes they take my attention. Picture and sound quality (SS
amp/Buschhorn Mk2 speakers) on UK stuff is generally excellent (DVD
quality) - US not so good.

The same setup is used for the BBC iPlayer and the comparatively kludgy ITV
Player - also freebie movies from LoveFilm from time to time. About the only
thing I watch real time is the news - and even that's behind the 'Net!!



As they say: what goes around* goes around....

Downloads prove that nothing need go around for there to be good music.



I said as much here a number of years ago....

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"David" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in message
You are correct on all counts. The only acoustic instrument capable of
creating these sorts of levels at sub-audible frequencies is the pipe
organ.

Oranges are not the only fruit.

The orchestral 60" bass-drum (Turkish or Italian Gran cassa)
and contrabass sarusaphone are also close contenders (not as
oranges, but as producers of sounds that are "less like notes and
more like sensations":-)

The Bosendorfer Grand Imperial concert piano is also pretty
impressive in its ability to make the earth (and even the orange) move
with C(0) at 16.45 Hz.


The human ear is extremly insensitive at frequencies below 20Hz, indeed
these very low frequencies are felt, more than heard. However it takes
considerable power to create a sound wave powerful enough to be felt in this
way. It's easy with an organ, just build a bloody great pipe and blow a lot
of air through it. However with a piano the only source of power is the
pianist's finger, and that's not going to be powerful enough.

But a piano note is not a pure tone, it is rich in harmonics, and it's well
known that a very low note can be implied by creating the harmonic structure
that might relate to a missing sub-audible fundamental, the human brain
"filling in" the missing fundamental. This trick is commonly employed in
organs and is, I strongly suspect, also how the Bosendorfer Grand Imperial
appears to create a note of 16.45Hz.

David.

"Keith G" wrote

Surely there is no-one here who cannot see how the hightened 'perception
of quality' playing a pristine record on a costly and massive high end
turntable greatly enhances the experience compared with shoving a CD into
a CD player - even an expensive one where 80% of the cost will be in the
fascia panel, LCD display and casing....


So it's all about expensive toys?


David.

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote

Surely there is no-one here who cannot see how the hightened 'perception
of quality' playing a pristine record on a costly and massive high end
turntable greatly enhances the experience compared with shoving a CD into
a CD player - even an expensive one where 80% of the cost will be in the
fascia panel, LCD display and casing....


So it's all about expensive toys?


Not with me it's not, my turntable is a twenty quid Lenco L72 with a plinth
I made from kitchen worktop offcuts - see the larger of the two here, the
smaller one is a kitchen worktop sample plinth:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/showntell/Lencoze.JPG

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

If you haven't noticed, its not the polycarbonate that people buy and
listen to, its the bits. It's the bits that laid waste to the LP market.
Matters not whether the bits are on polycarbonate or the web, its the bits
that almost all of us listen to.


That, as I see it, Arny, is the basic flaw in your whole
approach.People listen to the music, not the medium.

There is a huge amount of music that will never be released
on CD, but fortunately an LP on a good turntable gives
exceedingly goor results.



Iain

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"David" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in message
You are correct on all counts. The only acoustic instrument capable of
creating these sorts of levels at sub-audible frequencies is the pipe
organ.

Oranges are not the only fruit.

The orchestral 60" bass-drum (Turkish or Italian Gran cassa)
and contrabass sarusaphone are also close contenders (not as
oranges, but as producers of sounds that are "less like notes and
more like sensations":-)

The Bosendorfer Grand Imperial concert piano is also pretty
impressive in its ability to make the earth (and even the orange) move
with C(0) at 16.45 Hz.


The human ear is extremly insensitive at frequencies below 20Hz, indeed
these very low frequencies are felt, more than heard. However it takes
considerable power to create a sound wave powerful enough to be felt in
this way. It's easy with an organ, just build a bloody great pipe and blow
a lot of air through it. However with a piano the only source of power is
the pianist's finger, and that's not going to be powerful enough.

But a piano note is not a pure tone, it is rich in harmonics, and it's
well known that a very low note can be implied by creating the harmonic
structure that might relate to a missing sub-audible fundamental, the
human brain "filling in" the missing fundamental. This trick is commonly
employed in organs and is, I strongly suspect, also how the Bosendorfer
Grand Imperial appears to create a note of 16.45Hz.

Well actually it's simpler than that. It has an extra octave
at the bottom end:-) A quick calculation or a glance at Grove's
chart will show that the fundamental of C(0) is indeed 16.45Hz.


Iain

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


In contrast, the sales of CD have dwindled to such an
extent that HMV have announced the closure of 60 retail outlets,

So there has not been a strong transition of CD sales from
brick-and-mortar local store to superstore and web in Europe, as there has
been in the US?

Indeed there has. If you were a European you would know that HMV
*is* the superstore, or one of them, with incredible stocks, and very
knowledgeable and helpful sales personel. No on-line outlet can offer
this level of friendly service and expertise.

No such thing as anything like a Best Buy or Wal Mart "Big box" store in
Europe that wipes out neighborhood stores for miles around?

See above.

Interesting how LP bigots are also so quick to cite the loss of sales on
physical media (CD) but always forget to mention the vast increase in
sales of downloads.

Dowloads are at 128 and 256kbs so can hardly be claimed to be
a quality replacement for the CD.

but such offsetting gains don't suit their self-serving
agendas.

Is there are a reason for your terrible vinyl phobia, Arny?
It certanly seems like a red rag to a bull as far as you are
concerned.

LP bigots can only cite statistics that suit their
agenda.


I spend the yesterday evening listening to some excellent
Teddy Wilson tracks, privately recorded in Sweden, and pressed
on LP in small quantity. The likelyhood of their ever being released
on CD is very small indeed. Without a turntable I would not have
been able to enjoy some of the best piano jazz I have heard for
a very long time. Where, pray, is the bigotry in that?

Iain

David Looser wrote:

Modern turntables work no better than those of the 1970s,

I would be interested to know, David, have you even seen,
let alone auditioned, a Verdier or SME?

Iain

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"David" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in message
You are correct on all counts. The only acoustic instrument capable
of creating these sorts of levels at sub-audible frequencies is the
pipe organ.

Oranges are not the only fruit.

The orchestral 60" bass-drum (Turkish or Italian Gran cassa) and
contrabass sarusaphone are also close contenders (not as oranges, but as
producers of sounds that are "less like notes and more like
sensations":-)

But how much of that is a component at around 10Hz that reaches a level
anything like 120dB (A?)?

The Bosendorfer Grand Imperial concert piano is also pretty impressive
in its ability to make the earth (and even the orange) move with C(0) at
16.45 Hz.

I can appreciate that it has a key for that. However I do wonder about both
the above question and the possibility that what is heard is actually a
perception from the harmonics. IIRC it is well established in the physio
and psycho acoustics that humans will 'hear' the fundamental of a series of
harmonics at LF even if the actual fundamental is absent.

Thus I do remain uncertain of the need to actually reproduce something like
10Hz at 120dB level for mere music in a domestic situation. I can see it
may be useful for disaster movies, though. 8-]

Slainte,

Jim

--
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