"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message


But that what this group does - try anything to do with
the enjoyment of 'hifi' per se and the sounds you get
from it and it soon gets ****ed on by a small group of
smartarses* who think they have got the all the answers
'in the numbers' and who start braying 'you can't alter
the laws of physics' or somesuch.

Contrary to your peculiar beliefs Keith, almost everybody these days
manages to enjoy hifi without messing with tubes or vinyl.


DIY 'audio' without 'tubes or vinyl' is very difficult and certainly beyond
the reach of someone like me who has no 'technical background' but was able,
just for a while, to pull it together enough to build two amps (one of them
a kit, the other a pile of components and a circuit diagram), a 3 box valve
phono stage (kit) and six pairs of speakers (piles of board, speaker drive
units and drawings) - three of which are in daily use and have been
complimented to death by visitors to here.


One does one's best and, once in a while, one has a result!! :-)

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in message


But that what this group does - try anything to do with the enjoyment
of 'hifi' per se and the sounds you get from it and it soon gets
****ed on by a small group of smartarses* who think they have got the
all the answers 'in the numbers' and who start braying 'you can't
alter the laws of physics' or somesuch.

Contrary to your peculiar beliefs Keith, almost everybody these days
manages to enjoy hifi without messing with tubes or vinyl.


DIY 'audio' without 'tubes or vinyl' is very difficult and certainly
beyond the reach of someone like me who has no 'technical background'

That is demonstrably untrue. Note comments elsewhere on experiments with
loudspeakers, and also the 'HeadDAC' example I produced some time ago as
examples. It is also easy enough to build amplifiers without using 'valves'
and use them to do things like play other sources than 'vinyl'.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:



DIY 'audio' without 'tubes or vinyl' is very difficult and certainly
beyond the reach of someone like me who has no 'technical background'

That is demonstrably untrue.


Yes, perhaps I shouldn't speak for others here.



Note comments elsewhere on experiments with
loudspeakers, and also the 'HeadDAC' example I produced some time ago as
examples. It is also easy enough to build amplifiers without using
'valves'
and use them to do things like play other sources than 'vinyl'.


You are surely not suggesting I don't use sources other than vinyl with my
valve amps?

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
DIY 'audio' without 'tubes or vinyl' is very difficult and certainly
beyond the reach of someone like me who has no 'technical background'
but was able, just for a while, to pull it together enough to build two
amps (one of them a kit, the other a pile of components and a circuit
diagram), a 3 box valve phono stage (kit) and six pairs of speakers
(piles of board, speaker drive units and drawings) -

So in what way did this require vinyl? Did you also make the turntable,
arm and cartridge? If not it applies to any source like a CD player etc.

Oh - building valve equipment is actually more difficult than transistor
stuff.

three of which are
in daily use and have been complimented to death by visitors to here.

Interesting. You mention six pairs of speakers. All presumably different.
But 'complimented to death' by your visitors. Which merely shows they're
not picky and or lack experience of such things. It also means you can't
have been much satisfied by any of them if you kept on building different
ones.

--
*No I haven't stolen it , I'm just a **** driver*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote

Oh - building valve equipment is actually more difficult than transistor
stuff.


I agree, whilst I've repaired, restored and modified plenty of valve kit
over the years, almost everything I've actually built from scratch in my
50-year career as an electronics hobbyist has used semiconductors. Like
many I started with crystal sets whilst still at primary school, to which I
tried adding a single transistor amplifier stage. Unfortunately since I
didn't understand the damping effect of the low input impedance of the
transistor on the tuned circuit it was a bit of a failure, but it was a
learning experience. Then, having been given a turntable (with arm and
cartridge - an Acos turnover crystal) for my 12th birthday I built a
4-transistor amplifier for it from a design in "Practical Wireless". That
worked a treat, I've still got it somewhere.

David.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Oh - building valve equipment is actually more difficult than transistor
stuff.

But building with valves is a lot more fun:-) I've done plenty
of both over the years. And as someone pointed out, valves
are far more forgiving. You can set the bias slowly, and watch
the anodes glow cherry red:-)

PCBs take away one of the most interesting stages -
planning ther physical layout. Vero board looks very
Heath Robinson.

In valve amps, point-to-point can give unexpected results.
Tag boards can still be bought, and good old mil spec
turret boards are still readily available.

Iain

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Oh - building valve equipment is actually more difficult than transistor
stuff.

But building with valves is a lot more fun:-)

Your opinion, not mine. There's all that metal-bashing needed with valves
that, frankly, I can do without.

I've done plenty
of both over the years. And as someone pointed out, valves
are far more forgiving.

And so much more limiting. You can build a simple analogue amplifier with
valves, but not much more. My most recent audio project has been a device to
pick-off 5.1 or 7.1 LPCM audio from the HDMI output of a Bluray player and
send it as 4 AES/EBU streams to a cinema audio processor. Try doing *that*
with valves!


PCBs take away one of the most interesting stages -
planning ther physical layout.

Err... don't PCBs need their physical layout planned?

Vero board looks very
Heath Robinson.

Very useful for prototyping though.

In valve amps, point-to-point can give unexpected results.

Layout can be critical to getting optimum results with either.

Tag boards can still be bought, and good old mil spec
turret boards are still readily available.


At a price


David.

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Oh - building valve equipment is actually more difficult than transistor
stuff.

But building with valves is a lot more fun:-)

Your opinion, not mine.

There's all that metal-bashing needed with valves that, frankly, I can do
without.

It does take some effort it's true. But it is part of
the project. There are many options.

One can buy a ready punched chassis, for say a
25 amp (2x EL34) plus driver/phase inverter,
and input stage. One can also by good blank
chassis from companies such as Hammond, or have
one made locally. I use a small local firm who can
make me a very professional loking chasssis in
stainless steel or copper, pre punched for about
E50.They can work from even a drawing made in
Word, but prefer an AutoCad file.

I am sure there are dozens of good firms in the UK
who can do this kind of work, for probably much
less than I pay.



I've done plenty
of both over the years. And as someone pointed out, valves
are far more forgiving.

And so much more limiting. You can build a simple analogue amplifier with
valves, but not much more.

Tha's exactly what people want to do.
Many start with a kit.

Then later, they start on their own projects and
build a power amp. Then they build a preamp,
and often a separate RIAA stage. Then they
find that, if you don't need the tone controls,
the preamp is unnecessary with modern
high-level sources, so they strip out the power
amp and build a new one with an input selector
and stepped input attenuators.

My most recent audio project has been a device to pick-off 5.1 or 7.1 LPCM
audio from the HDMI output of a Bluray player and send it as 4 AES/EBU
streams to a cinema audio processor. Try doing *that* with valves!

That's a good project. Do you have a picture?

It wouldn't make any sense to even think
about doing that and it is probably not the
sort of thing that people want to do with
valves anyway.

I have a project on the back burner to build a
pair of log meter amplifiers with valves to drive a
pair of Decca type Ernest Turner PPMs

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...tTurnerPPM.jpg



PCBs take away one of the most interesting stages -
planning ther physical layout.

Err... don't PCBs need their physical layout planned?

Yes. You buy them ready with most kits. So the
layout is alreasdy planned for you. As I say
it takes away a lot of *your* fun.

Vero board looks very
Heath Robinson.

Very useful for prototyping though.

In tobacco tins:-)

In valve amps, point-to-point can give unexpected results.

Layout can be critical to getting optimum results with either.

Tag boards can still be bought, and good old mil spec
turret boards are still readily available.


At a price

If the principal concern is price, you shouldn't even
think about building valve equipment. But if you
are looking to do something that will give you
weeks of building enjoyment and years of listening
pleasure then there is nothing better

(IMHO:-)

Cheers
Iain

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
There's all that metal-bashing needed with valves that, frankly, I can do
without.

It does take some effort it's true. But it is part of
the project. There are many options.

One can buy a ready punched chassis, for say a
25 amp (2x EL34) plus driver/phase inverter,
and input stage. One can also by good blank
chassis from companies such as Hammond, or have
one made locally. I use a small local firm who can
make me a very professional loking chasssis in
stainless steel or copper, pre punched for about
E50.They can work from even a drawing made in
Word, but prefer an AutoCad file.

I am sure there are dozens of good firms in the UK
who can do this kind of work, for probably much
less than I pay.

Seems to be there's less and less of these things you want to do yourself
(talking about a hobby).

Making the chassis is part of the fun. And doesn't require expensive
equipment.

--
*Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message


My most recent audio project has been a device to pick-off 5.1 or 7.1
LPCM
audio from the HDMI output of a Bluray player and send it as 4 AES/EBU
streams to a cinema audio processor. Try doing *that* with valves!

That's a good project. Do you have a picture?

I'm afraid not, and it's no longer here to photograph. But it's not much to
look at, just a plain aluminium box with a couple of PCBs inside. One PCB,
which was "borrowed" from a commercial HDMI repeater includes an SII9135
HDMI decoder chip, whilst the other PCB has the 4 AES/EBU transmitter chips
(Crystal CS8404) and a couple of standard CMOS logic chips on it. The
hardest bit was picking off the four I2S signals and their three related
clocks from the miniscule tracks on the repeater board. It took a
fine-pointed soldering iron, a magnifying glass and a steady hand ;-).

I have a project on the back burner to build a
pair of log meter amplifiers with valves to drive a
pair of Decca type Ernest Turner PPMs

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...tTurnerPPM.jpg

Can't see the point myself since you can get PPM driver cards so easily, but
each to their own :-)


If the principal concern is price, you shouldn't even
think about building valve equipment. But if you
are looking to do something that will give you
weeks of building enjoyment and years of listening
pleasure then there is nothing better


I long ago ceased to find pleasure in building stuff simply for the sake of
building something. I've hade a lifetime of electronic construction, either
for myself, my employer or other people. It's the problem solving that I
enjoy, finding a solution to a particular requirement that cannot be met
satisfactorily or economically using off-the-shelf equipment. That's the
sort of thing I like doing, not building yet another HiFi amp. But as we've
both said before, each to their own.

David.