![]() |
Digitising Vinyls (OT for uk.tech.digital-tv)
Regulars will recall that I've been digitising all my ACs, MDs, and
vinyls. I've almost completely finished this now, and as I've made some discoveries which I at least found interesting, I'll put them on record, before they are forgotten ... First a reminder of the general situation ... In various posts June 2011, Java Jive wrote: I still have some audio recordings in the obsolete form of: ACs: 'The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy' first 2 radio series About 60 MiniDisks. About 125 LPs About 5 x 45 rpms Then there is the attendant hardwa Denon HiFi (seperates) around DRA-275RD amp downstairs in lounge Sanyo DC-007C Midi Tower (seperates) upstairs in bedroom/office. DMD-1300 MD deck in the downstairs HiFi (may be faulty) MDG-007 MD deck in the upstairs HiFi Dual 601 turntable, aged, some rumble, no preamp, Shure V15 Type III L-M cartridge Shure VN35MR elliptical stylus Phono inputs on Denon DRA-275RD downstairs. NAD Phono Preamp. Project TK38 turntable with inbuilt pre-amp, cartridge unknown Moth vinyl washing machine 2 x Desktop P4s W2k (still), each with ... SB Live with Digital IO dongle (SPDIF Coax & Optical In & Out) Dell Latitude 610 laptop + docking station USB Terratec Aureon 5.1 MKII (SPDIF Optical In & Out) [...] I record everything to LPCM wave files. For some time, I've been thinking that it would be good to: :-) Guard against irreplaceable but obsolescent kit going down :-) Digitise these remaining vinyls before further deterioration :-) Be able to play the vinyls without the associated hassle :-) Lose this significant pile of junk, but keep the recordings. I've had two major problems ... Dust and gunge on the vinyls Mains Hum I've described how I deal with the dust/gunge problems here ... http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/Audi...storation.html ... my plan being to record each vinyl, or at least each wanted track thereof, twice: 1st Pass unwashed, via the Dual 2nd Pass washed, via the Project ... and ultimately keep only the best. This didn't work out quite as expected, because I didn't like the sound of the Project deck - I suspect it has a ceramic cartridge of moderate quality, and therefore probably a pre-amp to match. Consequently, I dismantled, rewired. and reassembled the Dual deck to get rid of the hum. I ended up with quite severe tracking problems, but was able to solve these well enough to get the job done to a level of quality which I believe is about the best that could be hoped for without expense on new and better equipment. Despite having used it before (but perhaps my technique has improved), I was totally unprepared, and therefore unexpectedly delighted, at the almost complete restoration of most the vinyls by using the washer. Here's a sample of the results (each file is a WAV of about 8MB) ... Dual (before de-humming and vinyl washing): http://www.macfh.co.uk/PrivTest/Cill...WifeBefore.wav Project (after vinyl washing): http://www.macfh.co.uk/PrivTest/Cill...ifeProject.wav Dual (after de-humming and vinyl washing): http://www.macfh.co.uk/PrivTest/Cill...sWifeAfter.wav Note that: :-) Many 'scratches' actually turned out to be grit or dust in the grooves and were completely removed by the washer. :-( The Project has a rather boomy sound which lacks the top-end transients obtainable from the Dual. :-) The rewiring of the Dual has COMPLETELY removed the hum. Barring a handful of problem records with bad scratches, the results obtained from the vast majority of them are far, far better than I ever dared hope, let alone actually expected. Effectively, many of my favourites sound 'as new', even before using software to remove those minor blemishes that remain after washing. Phew! I'm so relieved that it's now all but over. I hope anyone who is still misguided enough to consider that vinyls are superior to CDs will take note of all these problems (fuller details appended), none of which occur with CD. It shouldn't be necessary to say it, but such druids may care to note that when played back through the same equipment, there is no audible difference between the originals and the digital recordings. WASHING VINYLS For those interested who haven't seen one before, the washer consists of a motorised turntable the size of a vinyl's centre label, the central spindle of which is screw-threaded, and a velvet covered, hollow arm, the top surface of which is perforated level with the turntable, and which is connected to a vacuum pump. The motor and the pump are controlled by seperate switches on the front. The procedure for washing a vinyl is: 1) Attach it with Side 1 uppermost clamping it with a plastic nut which screws onto the turntable spindle 2) Switch on the motor 3) Using a fine brush provided, wet the upper playing surface (not the label) thoroughly with cleaning agent, which is a strong solution of Isopropyl Alcohol (IPA). 4) Angle the brush into the grooves against the normal direction of travel for a few revolutions, if necessary periodically moving the brush across the entire radius of the playing surface. 5) Stop the motor 6) Turn the vinyl over 7) Start both the pump and the motor. The wet Side 1 is now underneath, rubbing over the surface of the arm, which sucks off the IPA and hopefully all the gunge from the grooves with it, leaving it clean and dry. 8) During 7) for Side 1, you repeat 3) and 4) for Side 2, now on top. 9) Repeat 5) through 7) for Side 2. Record the vinyl straightaway, without putting it back in its sleeve. In fact, really, one should use a new inner sleeve, but these days my budget doesn't extend to spending any more money on obsolete technology. MAINS HUM The page linked above also mentions mains hum in passing, but a fuller discussion follows ... I found that however I connected up the Dual, I got a big hum. I tried all the following combinations severally and together, all without making much of a difference: Earthing the metal of the deck via the mains lead, and not Earthing via the earth terminal of the amp, and not Using the seperate preamp, and the phono inputs on the amp Finally, in desperation, I took the turntable out of its box, and discovered that the grounds of the cartridge connections were connected to the metal of the deck. I cut these connections and rewired them so that the metal of the deck is earthed via the mains lead, and separately the grounds of the cartridge, like the signals, come straight out of the back to the outputs. This is a HUGE improvement: there is no build-up of static, and it's effectively hum-free until I start the motor. With the motor running, there is some residual hum, which I'd like to get rid of, but at least the result is listenable. When I tried the new arrangement with the NAD pre-amp, there was just a little more hum, so I've been using the HiFi phono inputs. When I tried it additionally connecting the metalwork to the earth connection on the amp either there was either no difference or it was worse, I can't now remember which, only that no benefit was obtained. My conclusion from all of this is that a vinyl record-deck should be wired as follows, but I'd be interested to see if others agree ... If the deck is driven from mains voltages, then its metalwork should be earthed via the earth in a three-core mains lead connected to the earth in a 3-pin plug. In this case, the metalwork of the arm should be insulated from the deck and a seperate earth point provided to connect the arm to the amp earth. Whether or not the deck is driven by mains voltages, the cartridge should be connected to the outputs via screened cable over the entire distance. The problem is that screened cables are stiffer than the tiny wiring commonly used in an arm, and their stiffness might affect the tracking if the job's not carefully done. I did once wire up an old Garrard deck like this, as an experiment. My recollection is that it was hum-free. I got the shielded cabling from RS or Maplin's [...]. It was two cores, about the same thickness as you'd find in a pick-up arm, with a common braiding outside, then a thin outer insulation. It was quite flexible, I do not recall ever noticing tracking problems with it. The above was exactly how I removed the hum from the Dual. This was the cable used: http://www.maplin.co.uk/2-core-overa...ped-screen-127 As you can hear on the samples above, effectively this did completely remove the hum. I can just about hear something at about the same level as the white noise when the volume on the amp is turned up full, but if I were to actually play anything at that volume, it would probably demolish the house. However, the difference between the ways that the Garrard and the Dual bring the cable out of the pick-up arm allowed this to work quite well with the Garrard, but gave me quite severe tracking problems with the Dual. With the Garrard, the arm mounting was tubular in construction, so that the cables came out through the centre of the bearings. By leaving a generous loop hanging underneath the deck before the cable was brought back up and fastened to the underside of the deck, the leverage exerted by the stylus over the full length of the pick-up arm was sufficiently greater than any resistance to being twisted exerted by the cable, so the arm tracked sufficiently well. However, with the Dual, the bearings are not such that the cable can be brought out through them, but rather it escapes by a tortuous route, finally jumping off a plate underneath the arm mounting. That this is as much as a couple of centimetres in effective radius and the lack of any suitable points to fix the non-moving end of the cable at the optimum distance away meant that there had to be a significant loop of cable being pulled to one side or the other as the arm tracks, and the large radius coupled with the weight of the cable in the loop meant that the cable caused tracking problems. After a great deal of trial and error, I found that it was necessary to attach the cable when the arm was positioned approximately in the middle of its full sweep. Then, if I set the turntable running about 15mins or so before beginning recording so that the cable got nice and warm, then the arm would usually track over the entire span of an LP. If by chance it didn't, which was rare, and usually on the first LP of the day, I would set the Bias Compensation to max for the first three tracks or so, then lift up the arm, set the compensation to zero, and put down the arm again for the remainder of the side. I had occasional other problems. For example, there was a Dubliners' LP which was a tight fit on the central spindle, so effectively while it was on the turntable it was conical in shape, and, particularly on the last track or so, the stylus was always trying to fall out of the groove down the slope, leading to bad distortion. After some ineffectual random trial and error, I logically worked out the actual cause, pushed the centre of the LP down flat on the TT, and the problem was instantly solved. However, bad scratches were still very much more likely to make the stylus jump to a neighbouring groove than hitherto. I have about 6 such vinyls for which I'm probably going to have to accept the poorer quality of the Project. For some reason or other 45s were more prone to tracking problems than LPs, the worst of all being the 'floppy' records that magazines such as 'Private Eye' (every Christmas) and 'Guitar Player' used to supply with particular issues. I had to resign myself to using the Project for those - not a problem for the PE ones as quality was not an issue, but disappointing for the GP one that I have. So I've effectively rendered the Dual's second-hand value to zero, but, as I bought it in about 1972/3, I reckon I've got my money's worth out of it. I really think that those manufacturers who are still making turntables should consider using the above wiring scheme in every model. I'm sure the tracking problems should be solvable at the design stage. -- ================================================== ======= Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's header does not exist. Or use a contact address at: http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html |
Digitising Vinyls (OT for uk.tech.digital-tv)
On 06/11/2011 16:59, Java Jive wrote:
Regulars will recall that I've been digitising all my ACs, MDs, and vinyls. I've almost completely finished this now, and as I've made some discoveries which I at least found interesting, I'll put them on record, before they are forgotten ... snip Phew! I'm so relieved that it's now all but over. Ah, but to rediscover the music :-) I hope anyone who is still misguided enough to consider that vinyls are superior to CDs will take note of all these problems (fuller details appended), none of which occur with CD. It shouldn't be necessary to say it, but such druids may care to note that when played back through the same equipment, there is no audible difference between the originals and the digital recordings. While I have found there to be little discernible difference between vinyl and CD - it's rare in my experience. I much prefer the sound of vinyl (digitised or not) to CDs, on the whole. And well worth the effort. Your samples sound pretty good. Strikes me you could have raised the levels a little, although i'm not sure what difference that would have made to the sound. And it'd be nice if you could post something more mainstream (good though they sound!) for comparisons. Rob |
Digitising Vinyls (OT for uk.tech.digital-tv)
JJ, do you have a website?
This account is interesting and informative, and I think lots of people with vinyl would find it helpful. I think it warrants posting somewhere more prominent than NNTP. Nice work. -- SteveT |
Digitising Vinyls (OT for uk.tech.digital-tv)
"Rob" wrote
While I have found there to be little discernible difference between vinyl and CD - it's rare in my experience. I much prefer the sound of vinyl (digitised or not) to CDs, on the whole. Are you not contradicting yourself there? Or do you "much prefer" something that has "little discernible difference" from the alternative? It is interesting, I note, that you say "vinyl (digitised or not)". So its not digital audio as such that you have a problem with, its the lack of the distortion that vinyl introduces. If record producers cut a vinyl copy from their masters and then digitised that vinyl to make the CD release you'd be happy, fair enough. David. |
Digitising Vinyls (OT for uk.tech.digital-tv)
In article , David Looser
wrote: "Rob" wrote While I have found there to be little discernible difference between vinyl and CD - it's rare in my experience. I much prefer the sound of vinyl (digitised or not) to CDs, on the whole. Are you not contradicting yourself there? Or do you "much prefer" something that has "little discernible difference" from the alternative? It is interesting, I note, that you say "vinyl (digitised or not)". So its not digital audio as such that you have a problem with, its the lack of the distortion that vinyl introduces. [Snip] do you remember the term "musicality"? it seems to be relevant here. -- From KT24 Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16 |
Digitising Vinyls (OT for uk.tech.digital-tv)
"charles" wrote
do you remember the term "musicality"? it seems to be relevant here. Perhaps you'd like to explain exactly how it is relevant? Rob apparently prefers digitised vinyl to the digitised master. In other words he considers an additional process (that of recording to, and subsequently playing back from, vinyl) to improve the sound of the original. Does that create "musicality"? I'd have thought that the musicality of a recording was something that is created by the musicians in the recording studio, not by technicians in a post-recording process. David. |
Digitising Vinyls (OT for uk.tech.digital-tv)
On 06/11/2011 21:10, David Looser wrote:
wrote do you remember the term "musicality"? it seems to be relevant here. Perhaps you'd like to explain exactly how it is relevant? perhaps you'd like to **** yourself with a thermonuclear munition. -- |
Digitising Vinyls (OT for uk.tech.digital-tv)
Yawn, plonk!
On Sun, 06 Nov 2011 21:16:37 +0000, wertu wrote: perhaps you'd like to **** yourself with a thermonuclear munition. -- ================================================== ======= Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's header does not exist. Or use a contact address at: http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html |
Digitising Vinyls (OT for uk.tech.digital-tv)
In article ,
David Looser wrote: "charles" wrote do you remember the term "musicality"? it seems to be relevant here. Perhaps you'd like to explain exactly how it is relevant? Rob apparently prefers digitised vinyl to the digitised master. In other words he considers an additional process (that of recording to, and subsequently playing back from, vinyl) to improve the sound of the original. Does that create "musicality"? Yes. Musicality referred to the "improvements" heard by some people playing recordings on imperfect reproduction equipment I'd have thought that the musicality of a recording was something that is created by the musicians in the recording studio, not by technicians in a post-recording process. You'd be wrong. -- From KT24 Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16 |
Digitising Vinyls (OT for uk.tech.digital-tv)
On Sun, 06 Nov 2011 21:39:25 +0000 (GMT), charles
wrote: Musicality referred to the "improvements" heard by some people playing recordings on imperfect reproduction equipment As a former amateur musician and singer of many years' standing, I find your own coined meaning of the word deeply insulting. Applying it, we are apparently to suppose that early recordings of famous pianists and opera singers made on wax rolls, wax disks, and pianola rolls have no musicality, or is it more, because of the poor quality of the reproduction! Yet, apparently, speech recordings made on vinyls, for example the comedians Bob Newhart and Shelley Berman that I have just digitised, - presumably including the inherent defects such as rumble, scratches, etc - are somehow more 'musical' than the same recordings would be on CD! How absurd. I'd have thought that the musicality of a recording was something that is created by the musicians in the recording studio, not by technicians in a post-recording process. You'd be wrong. No, he's absolutely correct. MUSICality is a quality of playing MUSIC introduced by MUSICians. Thank you for demonstrating so clearly to the rest of the world how illogical vinyl enthusiasts usually are. -- ================================================== ======= Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's header does not exist. Or use a contact address at: http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html |
All times are GMT. The time now is 03:42 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.0.0
Copyright ©2004-2006 AudioBanter.co.uk