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Dual 505



 
 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old February 16th 15, 01:24 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Java Jive
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Posts: 106
Default Dual 505

I hope for your sake that it doesn't turn out to have a hum, but after
my experiences with my Dual 601, I'm inclined to think it most
probably will ...

On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 14:04:17 +0000, Sumatriptan
wrote:

Yesterday, I got a Dual 505 on Ebay for £77. I know there are Denons,
Thorens etc. around but I have a budget...

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old February 16th 15, 01:49 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Sumatriptan
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Posts: 59
Default Dual 505

On 16/02/2015 14:24, Java Jive wrote:
I hope for your sake that it doesn't turn out to have a hum, but after
my experiences with my Dual 601, I'm inclined to think it most
probably will ...


Thanks for the info. Any reason for thinking that the problem may be
common to all Dual models?


  #3 (permalink)  
Old February 16th 15, 04:42 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Java Jive
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Posts: 106
Default Dual 505

The way mine was wired (*), and assuming that yours is not likely to
be very different. Mine was a very old model, though, bought c1974,
and if yours is not of the same vintage hopefully things will have
improved. Nevertheless, I wouldn't bank on it, my impression being
that less, not more, care is taken over decks these days. I think the
manufacturers tend to think: "This is never going to have comparable
output to a good CD deck, so we'll make it cheap and cheerful!" That
means a ceramic cartridge and not much attention given to things like
hum suppression. I hope for your sake that I'm wrong, but time will
soon tell.

* The wiring mistakes were as follows ...

:-( The deck was made of metal, yet originally supplied with a
two-core, that is unearthed, mains cable. Very early on in its life,
I changed the mains lead for a three-core one with the earth attached
to the deck metal. Not only was this a lot safer in theory, in
practice it also meant that when dismounting a record I didn't get
electric shocks from static having built up from the normal action of
the stylus in the groove. When I first did this, I was using a
properly earthed amp, so didn't notice any increase in hum, IIRC quite
the reverse in fact, but by the time a couple of years ago when I was
doing the digitisation, I was using an amp with a two-core mains lead,
that is, although it had an earth point for a deck, it itself was not
earthed, and the deck now gave a big hum.

:-( When analysing this hum, the next thing I noticed was that the
arm and cartridge holder were grounded to the deck metal. Just
cutting, or in my case unsoldering, the cartridge holder earth
underneath the deck and instead taking it out the back to the earth
point on the amp made quite a bit of difference, but didn't get rid of
the hum entirely.

:-( Then I realised, and proved it with a resistance meter, that
the tone arm was not electrically insulated from the deck metal, which
meant that even after the above link had been fixed, the wiring to the
cartridge still picked up hum from being surrounded by the metal tube
of the tone arm. What follows is definitely not something to be
recommended, but it being a very, very old and already beat up deck
with zilch second-hand value, for example the lid hinges had broken
within a couple of years of purchase, I didn't mind hazarding breaking
it altogether, and so completely dismantled the tone arm, replacing
the wiring with the smallest stereo coaxial wiring I could find, so
that the outer sheath being grounded protected the signal wires
within, and this completely fixed the hum. However such cable is a
lot less flexible than the original very thin and delicate wiring that
is commonly used to wire between the terminals of the cartridge and
the outputs at the back, so this introduced tracking problems which
took a lot of trial and error to fix, which is why it's not something
to be generally recommended.

So if yours has a hum, my advice would be to repatriate it immediately
as not being "fit for purpose".

On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 14:49:38 +0000, Sumatriptan
wrote:

Thanks for the info. Any reason for thinking that the problem may be
common to all Dual models?


--
================================================== =======
UK Residents: If you feel can possibly support it
please sign the following ePetition
before closing time of 30/03/2015 23:59:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/71556
================================================== =======
Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's
header does not exist. Or use a contact address at:
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html
http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html
  #4 (permalink)  
Old February 16th 15, 05:12 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Woody[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 145
Default Dual 505


"Java Jive" wrote in message
...
The way mine was wired (*), and assuming that yours is not likely to
be very different. Mine was a very old model, though, bought c1974,
and if yours is not of the same vintage hopefully things will have
improved. Nevertheless, I wouldn't bank on it, my impression being
that less, not more, care is taken over decks these days. I think
the
manufacturers tend to think: "This is never going to have
comparable
output to a good CD deck, so we'll make it cheap and cheerful!"
That
means a ceramic cartridge and not much attention given to things
like
hum suppression. I hope for your sake that I'm wrong, but time will
soon tell.

* The wiring mistakes were as follows ...

:-( The deck was made of metal, yet originally supplied with a
two-core, that is unearthed, mains cable. Very early on in its
life,
I changed the mains lead for a three-core one with the earth
attached
to the deck metal. Not only was this a lot safer in theory, in
practice it also meant that when dismounting a record I didn't get
electric shocks from static having built up from the normal action
of
the stylus in the groove. When I first did this, I was using a
properly earthed amp, so didn't notice any increase in hum, IIRC
quite
the reverse in fact, but by the time a couple of years ago when I
was
doing the digitisation, I was using an amp with a two-core mains
lead,
that is, although it had an earth point for a deck, it itself was
not
earthed, and the deck now gave a big hum.

:-( When analysing this hum, the next thing I noticed was that the
arm and cartridge holder were grounded to the deck metal. Just
cutting, or in my case unsoldering, the cartridge holder earth
underneath the deck and instead taking it out the back to the earth
point on the amp made quite a bit of difference, but didn't get rid
of
the hum entirely.

:-( Then I realised, and proved it with a resistance meter, that
the tone arm was not electrically insulated from the deck metal,
which
meant that even after the above link had been fixed, the wiring to
the
cartridge still picked up hum from being surrounded by the metal
tube
of the tone arm. What follows is definitely not something to be
recommended, but it being a very, very old and already beat up deck
with zilch second-hand value, for example the lid hinges had broken
within a couple of years of purchase, I didn't mind hazarding
breaking
it altogether, and so completely dismantled the tone arm, replacing
the wiring with the smallest stereo coaxial wiring I could find, so
that the outer sheath being grounded protected the signal wires
within, and this completely fixed the hum. However such cable is a
lot less flexible than the original very thin and delicate wiring
that
is commonly used to wire between the terminals of the cartridge and
the outputs at the back, so this introduced tracking problems which
took a lot of trial and error to fix, which is why it's not
something
to be generally recommended.

So if yours has a hum, my advice would be to repatriate it
immediately
as not being "fit for purpose".


Going back 30+ years most kit was only two core, the only three-core
being on the amp so that there would never be any hum loops. Even now
I have
Hitachi DD T/T
Denon TU260LII
Sony MD???
Marantz CD5400SE
NAD 312
Denon 555 dual cassette
Rotel RB850
and the only item there with a three-core cable is the turntable. The
turntable earth is only to the motor body and is completely isolated
from the audio connections but I have not a glimmer of hum anywhere.


--
Woody

harrogate3 at ntlworld dot com


  #5 (permalink)  
Old February 16th 15, 06:21 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Sumatriptan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 59
Default Dual 505

On 16/02/2015 17:42, Java Jive wrote:

So if yours has a hum, my advice would be to repatriate it immediately
as not being "fit for purpose".


OK, noted. I have chased earth-loop hum in other contexts so I know how
tricky it can be to track down. My fingers are crossed.


  #6 (permalink)  
Old February 16th 15, 07:13 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Trevor Wilson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 801
Default Dual 505

On 17/02/2015 1:49 AM, Sumatriptan wrote:
On 16/02/2015 14:24, Java Jive wrote:
I hope for your sake that it doesn't turn out to have a hum, but after
my experiences with my Dual 601, I'm inclined to think it most
probably will ...


Thanks for the info. Any reason for thinking that the problem may be
common to all Dual models?



**No. Dual turntables were some of the best resolved turntables in their
price class. I doubt you will have any problems, unless it has been
worked on by an idiot.

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

  #7 (permalink)  
Old February 16th 15, 01:58 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Jim Lesurf[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,668
Default Dual 505

In article , Sumatriptan
wrote:
Yesterday, I got a Dual 505 on Ebay for £77. I know there are Denons,
Thorens etc. around but I have a budget...



It has a M55E cartridge which the seller tells me was recently fitted.


If you don't already have a suitable test LP in good condition I'd
recommend getting a copy of one. I have a set of different examples, right
back to HFS69 (the age is hinted at by the number 8-]), The old ones aren't
available unused any more. However I think the

"Analogue Productions Ultimate Analogue Test LP"

is still available.

As with many test LPs the white/pink noise, isn't. :-) But the tones are
OK.

You can then use it to check that your cartridge, etc, are working OK.
Initially check 'by ear' that it tracks reasonably well. Adjust the playing
force ('weight') and bias to suit. Then check by making a digital recording
and seeing how much distortion, rumble, hum, etc there is.

Once happy with it, adjust the levels so your recordings don't clip. FWIW I
tend to set levels so a 0dB RIAA tone would come out somewhere around -15
to -18dB in the digital file. This gives headroom for loud sounds and means
you can simply leave the recording gain set from then on. No need to fiddle
with it from one LP to the next or worry about clipping. Makes life easier.


I see a few people doubting if vinyl--digital is worth it. Rationally,
I'm not sure either but I think it will be fun trying.


Experiment is often the best way to decide since it'll depend on you and
the LPs, etc. Have fun and enjoy the music rather than regard it as a task
to be ground though.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

  #8 (permalink)  
Old February 16th 15, 06:55 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Sumatriptan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 59
Default Dual 505

On 16/02/2015 14:58, Jim Lesurf wrote:


"Analogue Productions Ultimate Analogue Test LP"

is still available.


OK, on my accessories list.

aside A few minutes ago I watched an unused, genuine Shure N55E stylus
in original packaging auction for £52.66 on Ebay. Phew!


to -18dB in the digital file. This gives headroom for loud sounds and means


Understood

the LPs, etc. Have fun and enjoy the music rather than regard it as a task
to be ground though.


Absolutely.



  #9 (permalink)  
Old February 17th 15, 08:57 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Jim Lesurf[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,668
Default Dual 505

In article ,
Sumatriptan wrote:

aside A few minutes ago I watched an unused, genuine Shure N55E stylus
in original packaging auction for £52.66 on Ebay. Phew!


Getting a 'new' stylus for ancient cartridges can be a bit like being in a
shooting gallery blindfolded. Genuine 'new old stock' risks having
deteriorated. New 'third party' replacements may fit physically, but not be
like the originals in performance. Alas, much as I love my old Shure V15
I'm hesitant about modern replacement styli. So take care.

If you find the existing stylus or replacements aren't satisfactory, then
an alternative is someone like the 'Expert Stylus Company' who will
refurbish an old stylus.

You may be better off with the M55 than some other models, though as I
think that sort of level of Shure remained popular with 'DJs'. And probably
sold in bigger numbers than V15s.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

  #10 (permalink)  
Old February 17th 15, 09:33 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Sumatriptan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 59
Default Dual 505

On 17/02/2015 09:57, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article ,
Sumatriptan wrote:

aside A few minutes ago I watched an unused, genuine Shure N55E stylus
in original packaging auction for £52.66 on Ebay. Phew!


Getting a 'new' stylus for ancient cartridges can be a bit like being in a
shooting gallery blindfolded. Genuine 'new old stock' risks having
deteriorated. New 'third party' replacements may fit physically, but not be
like the originals in performance. Alas, much as I love my old Shure V15
I'm hesitant about modern replacement styli. So take care.

If you find the existing stylus or replacements aren't satisfactory, then
an alternative is someone like the 'Expert Stylus Company' who will
refurbish an old stylus.

You may be better off with the M55 than some other models, though as I
think that sort of level of Shure remained popular with 'DJs'. And probably
sold in bigger numbers than V15s.

Jim


Yup, prices of genuine 'New Old Stock' versus 'will fit M55E' items at
£12 a pop says something. I don't know what stylus is fitted to this one.
 




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