In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
I also wonder if *all* buyers of valve power amps knowingly do so on the
basis that the output values are 'consumables' and might need replacing
in as little as just over 90 days. (And by implication, replaced again
on such a routine short timescale.) No doubt savvy ones do. But do *all*
of them ?... The issue is complicated because some makers may soup up
the stress on the valves more than others. So it may not be clear to the
buyer what kind of life to expect for that particular amp design.

Last valve amps I had were Quad II. They certainly didn't need new output
valves every three months - and neither did the hundreds of valve power
amps the BBC used at the same time either. No one in their right mind
would build such a device. Or certainly not for commercial sales.

--
*When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Jim Lesurf
wrote:
I also wonder if *all* buyers of valve power amps knowingly do so on
the basis that the output values are 'consumables' and might need
replacing in as little as just over 90 days. (And by implication,
replaced again on such a routine short timescale.) No doubt savvy ones
do. But do *all* of them ?... The issue is complicated because some
makers may soup up the stress on the valves more than others. So it
may not be clear to the buyer what kind of life to expect for that
particular amp design.

Last valve amps I had were Quad II. They certainly didn't need new
output valves every three months - and neither did the hundreds of valve
power amps the BBC used at the same time either. No one in their right
mind would build such a device. Or certainly not for commercial sales.

That's what I'd tend to expect from decent makers and designers. And why
I'm a bit puzzled by the idea that it is routine to sell valve power amps
on the basis that the output values aren't covered by the general warranty,
just a "90 days of wear and tear". I doubt saying that would stand up in a
UK court, but I don't know of any cases.

That said, I have no idea what other makers may get up to. Nor what other
countries would do with such a term for consumer retail sale of such
consumer equipment.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Jim Lesurf wrote:


I also wonder if *all* buyers of valve power amps knowingly do so on
the basis that the output values are 'consumables' and might need
replacing in as little as just over 90 days.


** That is not what the 90 day limit really means !!

Which doesn't establish that all UK buyers know about this.


** Which is an utter, pedantic irrelevance.


Warranties on consumer items do not cover fair wear and tear, the
effects of unusual and harsh usage or commercial use.

As above, I don't know of a UK court case that agreed this *is* "fair wear
and tear of a consumable" if the valves failed in just over 90 days.

** You are sounding like a stuck record and you need to learn to read ahead too.

A 90 day old valve amplifier might have had 24/7 operation and clocked
up 2160 hours.

Or might not.

** More pedantic, irrelevant and absurdly argumentative crap.


In the absence of a reliable measurement ...

** Obviously, you have had very little to do with valves.


There is nothing straight forward about the situation

I agree, that's what makes me raise wonder about the above.


** You clearly did not even read or comprehend what I wrote.

The 90 day period establishes a threshold to distinguish valves that likely had a built in factory fault and ones that have simply worn out by being subjected to continuous use.

Worn output valves have low cathode emission and many visible signs of the long term effects of heat.

OTOH a valve that has failed early due to a factory fault will likely look perfect and yet not function at all, because the heater is open or the vacuum lost.

A big problem is that valves are *user replaceable* and not a permanent part of a particular amplifier, owners can do what they like with them, swapping them about and hence causing havoc. Such owners have no right to claim on a warranty.

The TRUTH is valve amps are an *anachronism* that still exists only because people *want* to use them, not because they are good value or reliable pieces of electronics.

FYI:

I have been continuously dealing with good and faulty valves, both new from the box and long in service for nearly 50 years.



.... Phil

The 90 day period establishes a threshold to distinguish valves that likely had
a built in factory fault and ones that have simply worn out by being subjected
to continuous use.

Worn output valves have low cathode emission and many visible signs of the long
term effects of heat.

OTOH a valve that has failed early due to a factory fault will likely look
perfect and yet not function at all, because the heater is open or the vacuum
lost.

A big problem is that valves are *user replaceable* and not a permanent part of
a particular amplifier, owners can do what they like with them, swapping them
about and hence causing havoc. Such owners have no right to claim on a warranty.

The TRUTH is valve amps are an *anachronism* that still exists only because
people *want* to use them, not because they are good value or reliable pieces of
electronics.

FYI:

I have been continuously dealing with good and faulty valves, both new from the
box and long in service for nearly 50 years.



... Phil




I had to spend a few years in the domestic TV trade years ago and it
always was bloody annoying when some Oik would come in and ask for a
"Picture" or a "Sound" valve..


Got totally ****ed of trying to explain to the prat's that more than the
one valve did each and common functions.

Also we were plagued with several Pye group factories around the area
and the other was,

"The man who *works at Pye's says the picture/sound valve has gone have
you got one please";?!..


* Works could, and more often was, working in the stores or sweeping
up;!..
--
Tony Sayer

Jim Lesurf wrote:


That's what I'd tend to expect from decent makers and designers. And why
I'm a bit puzzled by the idea that it is routine to sell valve power amps
on the basis that the output values aren't covered by the general warranty,
just a "90 days of wear and tear".


** Like any other pig ignorant, pommy ****head - YOU are just plain puzzled by every ****ing thing.


I doubt saying that would stand up in a
UK court, but I don't know of any cases.


** See above - ****head.


That said, I have no idea ....

** A 100% general truism - for all retarded, ASD ****ed, pommy ****s like Jim Lesurf.

No deliberate insult - just absolute FACT.


..... Phil

On Fri, 20 Mar 2015 04:01:01 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison
wrote:

Jim Lesurf wrote:


That's what I'd tend to expect from decent makers and designers. And why
I'm a bit puzzled by the idea that it is routine to sell valve power amps
on the basis that the output values aren't covered by the general warranty,
just a "90 days of wear and tear".


** Like any other pig ignorant, pommy ****head - YOU are just plain puzzled by every ****ing thing.


I doubt saying that would stand up in a
UK court, but I don't know of any cases.


** See above - ****head.


That said, I have no idea ....

** A 100% general truism - for all retarded, ASD ****ed, pommy ****s like Jim Lesurf.

No deliberate insult - just absolute FACT.



Wow, another fiver!

You're "Billy Bass" AICMFP! http://www2.b3ta.com/fish/
--
J B Good

On 19/03/2015 8:33 PM, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article ,
Trevor Wilson wrote:
**I don't have a problem with a valve amp manufacturer advertising that
the product has a 90 day warranty. It's the 5 year (or whatever) claims
that are bull****.

I wonder if the courts in the UK/EU might "have a problem" with such
consumer goods offerred with a 90 day warranty. AIUI The law here tends to
specify that the term should be at least a year or two for 'free' repair or
replacement. A warranty can *add* or *extend* this, but not reduce it.

That said, the laws on such issues are routinely ignored by manufacturers
because they know its a civil matter and most aggreved buyers can be fobbed
off without them being up to taking the matter to court.

I also wonder if *all* buyers of valve power amps knowingly do so on the
basis that the output values are 'consumables' and might need replacing in
as little as just over 90 days. (And by implication, replaced again on such
a routine short timescale.) No doubt savvy ones do. But do *all* of them
?... The issue is complicated because some makers may soup up the stress on
the valves more than others. So it may not be clear to the buyer what kind
of life to expect for that particular amp design.


**Here is one company which supplies a decent warranty on their product:

http://www.mingda.co.uk/

Presumably, there is enough meat in their profit margin to allow such a
generous warranty period for valves. Dunno about the UK, but Chinese
audio products, in Australia, often tend to be hugely over-priced.



--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

On 19/03/2015 16:23, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
I also wonder if *all* buyers of valve power amps knowingly do so on the
basis that the output values are 'consumables' and might need replacing
in as little as just over 90 days. (And by implication, replaced again
on such a routine short timescale.) No doubt savvy ones do. But do *all*
of them ?... The issue is complicated because some makers may soup up
the stress on the valves more than others. So it may not be clear to the
buyer what kind of life to expect for that particular amp design.

Last valve amps I had were Quad II. They certainly didn't need new output
valves every three months - and neither did the hundreds of valve power
amps the BBC used at the same time either. No one in their right mind
would build such a device. Or certainly not for commercial sales.


I've had valve amps somewhere in the chain for knocking on 20 years, and
this is the first time I don't remember a valve failing Admittedly, no
one amp has been in continuous use. The only one I use regularly is the
preamp. But I did have a monster Beard power amp for a good few years.

My point is the general one that valves can last a very long time. And
that I wasn't sure of valve failure symptoms - hence the original post.
If I could have avoided lashing out 40 quid, I would.

--
Cheers, Rob

On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 15:29:32 +1100, Trevor Wilson
wrote:

On 19/03/2015 8:33 PM, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article ,
Trevor Wilson wrote:
**I don't have a problem with a valve amp manufacturer advertising that
the product has a 90 day warranty. It's the 5 year (or whatever) claims
that are bull****.

I wonder if the courts in the UK/EU might "have a problem" with such
consumer goods offerred with a 90 day warranty. AIUI The law here tends to
specify that the term should be at least a year or two for 'free' repair or
replacement. A warranty can *add* or *extend* this, but not reduce it.

That said, the laws on such issues are routinely ignored by manufacturers
because they know its a civil matter and most aggreved buyers can be fobbed
off without them being up to taking the matter to court.

I also wonder if *all* buyers of valve power amps knowingly do so on the
basis that the output values are 'consumables' and might need replacing in
as little as just over 90 days. (And by implication, replaced again on such
a routine short timescale.) No doubt savvy ones do. But do *all* of them
?... The issue is complicated because some makers may soup up the stress on
the valves more than others. So it may not be clear to the buyer what kind
of life to expect for that particular amp design.


**Here is one company which supplies a decent warranty on their product:

http://www.mingda.co.uk/

Presumably, there is enough meat in their profit margin to allow such a
generous warranty period for valves. Dunno about the UK, but Chinese
audio products, in Australia, often tend to be hugely over-priced.

Valves are like pretty much any electronic part. The closer you run
them to their maximum ratings, the shorter their lifetime. Sure it is
possible to design an amplifier in which you can only guarantee the
valves for ninety days. But you are a **** if you do, and you deserve
the small claims courts hitting you with Fitness For Purpose clause in
the Sale Of Goods Act.

I don't know how it is in other parts of the world, but here in the UK
it is not possible to abrogate one's warranty obligations by printing
some kind of disclaimer on the product. Statutory warranties can only
be altered in favour of the customer.

d

Don Pearce wrote:


Valves are like pretty much any electronic part.

** Absolutely incorrect.

Valves are quite unique.



The closer you run
them to their maximum ratings, the shorter their lifetime.

** Absolutely false too.


Sure it is
possible to design an amplifier in which you can only guarantee the
valves for ninety days.

** Not what a 90 day warranty on valves even means.

24 x 90 hours is long enough to wear out some output valves out when operating in class A as do most hi-fi amps including all SET amps.


and you deserve
the small claims courts hitting you with Fitness For Purpose clause in
the Sale Of Goods Act.


** As if a colossal **** like YOU has any idea about that.


I don't know how it is in other parts of the world, but here in the UK
it is not possible to abrogate one's warranty obligations by printing
some kind of disclaimer on the product.


** Valves are user replaceable consumables - everyone knows that.

They are fragile, easily damaged by simple mistakes and very easily abused.

A 90 day warranty is generous and the industry standard for decades.

Valve dealers generally offer no warranty period at all.

Obviously you have SFA experience with valves.

FOAD.


... Phil