On 18/03/2015 3:02 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
RJH wrote:
Phil Allison wrote:

RJH wrote:

My 20 year old Rose valve preamp has started making a 'whooshing' sound,
varies in intensity, with a steady rush of background hiss. Might it be
the valves? Everything lights up, and I've had the back off and all
looks in order.


** After 20 years, it is time you replaced all the valves.


Yes, I'd better bite the bullet I suppose. Prices seem to vary widely (4
x National ECC82) - this seems to be about the cheapest:

http://www.rapidonline.com/electroni...de-valve-35348


Ordered from Rapid last night, arrived lunchtime, amp now working fine.

Many thanks for your help.



** Valves are made to plug into sockets for a reason ...

**On a related matter: I used to love speaking to customers who were
considering purchasing Brand X valve amp. When prompted, they claimed
that it came with a very generous (1, 2, 3) year warranty. "How long was
the warranty on the valves." I would ask. "Oh, 90 days." Was the usual
reply. "How much to replace all those KT88s?" "Dunno, maybe a couple of
grand."

Imagine trying to sell a solid state amp, but only providing a 90 day
warranty on the transistors...

Sheesh!


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

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Phil Allison wrote:


** Valves are made to plug into sockets for a reason ...


**On a related matter:


** I bet it is not.


I used to love speaking to customers who were
considering purchasing Brand X valve amp. When prompted, they claimed
that it came with a very generous (1, 2, 3) year warranty. "How long was
the warranty on the valves." I would ask. "Oh, 90 days." Was the usual
reply. "How much to replace all those KT88s?" "Dunno, maybe a couple of
grand."


** As if they would all fail at once after only 90 days.

Massive straw man fallacy.

The only kind of logic TW ever uses.

Still hate the Sony CDP101 - Trev ?

Course you do.



Imagine trying to sell a solid state amp, but only providing a 90 day
warranty on the transistors...


** Another idiotic straw man fallacy.

TW breathes and dines on them.

The life blood of all snake oil salesmen, worldwide.




..... Phil

On 18/03/2015 11:26 PM, Phil Allison wrote:
Phil Allison wrote:


** Valves are made to plug into sockets for a reason ...


**On a related matter:


** I bet it is not.


I used to love speaking to customers who were
considering purchasing Brand X valve amp. When prompted, they claimed
that it came with a very generous (1, 2, 3) year warranty. "How long was
the warranty on the valves." I would ask. "Oh, 90 days." Was the usual
reply. "How much to replace all those KT88s?" "Dunno, maybe a couple of
grand."


** As if they would all fail at once after only 90 days.

**Unlikely, but big power valves rarely last 5 years in many big power
amps. Those same amplifiers are often supplied with a '5 year warranty'.
Since the valves are not covered, that makes the warranty virtually
worthless. It is a con-job. As are most valve amps.


Massive straw man fallacy.

The only kind of logic TW ever uses.

Still hate the Sony CDP101 - Trev ?

**The CDP101 was a pretty decent player back in 1983. Later models are
significantly better, sound-wise. See if you can locate a Marantz CD80
(ca. 1990) and have a good listen. Easily outperforms your CDP101
(sonically). In fact, the CD80 will easily outperform almost ANY player
at any price.


Course you do.



Imagine trying to sell a solid state amp, but only providing a 90 day
warranty on the transistors...


** Another idiotic straw man fallacy.

**Why? Valves are the active devices in a valve amp. Transistors are the
active devices in a solid state amp. Why should valves be excluded from
the warranty on a product? THAT is the real con. Valve amp buyers have
been sucking up the lies for years.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

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Trevor Wilson wrote:

Phil Allison wrote:


** Valves are made to plug into sockets for a reason ...


**On a related matter:


** I bet it is not.


I used to love speaking to customers who were
considering purchasing Brand X valve amp. When prompted, they claimed
that it came with a very generous (1, 2, 3) year warranty. "How long was
the warranty on the valves." I would ask. "Oh, 90 days." Was the usual
reply. "How much to replace all those KT88s?" "Dunno, maybe a couple of
grand."


** As if they would all fail at once after only 90 days.

**Unlikely,

** Then why post the rediculous tripe you just did.


Those same amplifiers are often supplied with a '5 year warranty'.
Since the valves are not covered, that makes the warranty virtually
worthless.

** Warranties never cover "wear and tear".

Valves inherently have a limited life and if operated near their dissipation limits a very limited one. So a 90 day warranty on them I perfectly fair.


It is a con-job.

** Not it isn't.

As are most valve amps.

** No they aren't.


Massive straw man fallacy.

The only kind of logic TW ever uses.

Still hate the Sony CDP101 - Trev ?


**The CDP101 was a pretty decent player back in 1983.

** As if a clown like you has any idea on the matter.


Imagine trying to sell a solid state amp, but only providing a 90 day
warranty on the transistors...


** Another idiotic straw man fallacy.

**Why?

** See above.

The obvious fallacy is in comparing chalk and cheese and then complaining they are not the same.


Valves are the active devices in a valve amp. Transistors are the
active devices in a solid state amp.


** And there the similarity ends.

Why should valves be excluded from
the warranty on a product?


** See above.

THAT is the real con.

** No, you are wrong.


Valve amp buyers have
been sucking up the lies for years.

** No-one has ever claimed valves last for ever or even for a long time.

But 20 years from four 12AU7s is a fair run.

I often see small valves in guitar amps that are even older and still going fine. But output valves are *consumables* and everyone knows and accepts it.

You have no actual point - as usual.


BTW: Was this line of bull**** something you dreamt up to help sell those ME piles of crap to audiophools ?

Betcha it was.


.... Phil

On 19/03/2015 10:50 AM, Phil Allison wrote:
Trevor Wilson wrote:

Phil Allison wrote:


** Valves are made to plug into sockets for a reason ...


**On a related matter:


** I bet it is not.


I used to love speaking to customers who were considering
purchasing Brand X valve amp. When prompted, they claimed that
it came with a very generous (1, 2, 3) year warranty. "How long
was the warranty on the valves." I would ask. "Oh, 90 days."
Was the usual reply. "How much to replace all those KT88s?"
"Dunno, maybe a couple of grand."


** As if they would all fail at once after only 90 days.

**Unlikely,

** Then why post the rediculous tripe you just did.


Those same amplifiers are often supplied with a '5 year warranty'.
Since the valves are not covered, that makes the warranty
virtually worthless.

** Warranties never cover "wear and tear".

Valves inherently have a limited life and if operated near their
dissipation limits a very limited one. So a 90 day warranty on them I
perfectly fair.

**Electrolytic capacitors have a limited life and are routinely
replaced, under warranty.



It is a con-job.

** Not it isn't.

**Of course it is. A typical valve amp has a REAL warranty period of 90
days. The 5 year (or whatever is advertised) is just bull****.


As are most valve amps.

** No they aren't.


Massive straw man fallacy.

The only kind of logic TW ever uses.

Still hate the Sony CDP101 - Trev ?


**The CDP101 was a pretty decent player back in 1983.

** As if a clown like you has any idea on the matter.

**I listened extensively to the CDP101 and the superior CDP701 back in
the day. I've also had the opportunity to compare the CDP101 to more
recent players, like the brilliant Marantz CD80.



Imagine trying to sell a solid state amp, but only providing a
90 day warranty on the transistors...


** Another idiotic straw man fallacy.

**Why?

** See above.

The obvious fallacy is in comparing chalk and cheese and then
complaining they are not the same.

**I don't have a problem with a valve amp manufacturer advertising that
the product has a 90 day warranty. It's the 5 year (or whatever) claims
that are bull****.




--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

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Trevor Wilson is a ****wit wrote:

** Then why post the rediculous tripe you just did.

** Warranties never cover "wear and tear".

Valves inherently have a limited life and if operated near their
dissipation limits a very limited one. So a 90 day warranty on them I
perfectly fair.


**Electrolytic capacitors have a limited life

** Which generally exceeds the expected life of the equipment.


and are routinely replaced, under warranty.


** Cos any failures in the first year or so is not fair wear and tear.



It is a con-job.

** Not it isn't.

**Of course it is.

** No it isn't.



**I listened extensively to the CDP101 ...

** So ****ing what ?

You defective brain was involved.


**I don't have a problem with a valve amp manufacturer advertising that
the product has a 90 day warranty. It's the 5 year (or whatever) claims
that are bull****.


** No they are not.

Go away you ridiculous troll.



..... Phil

In article ,
Trevor Wilson wrote:
**I don't have a problem with a valve amp manufacturer advertising that
the product has a 90 day warranty. It's the 5 year (or whatever) claims
that are bull****.

I wonder if the courts in the UK/EU might "have a problem" with such
consumer goods offerred with a 90 day warranty. AIUI The law here tends to
specify that the term should be at least a year or two for 'free' repair or
replacement. A warranty can *add* or *extend* this, but not reduce it.

That said, the laws on such issues are routinely ignored by manufacturers
because they know its a civil matter and most aggreved buyers can be fobbed
off without them being up to taking the matter to court.

I also wonder if *all* buyers of valve power amps knowingly do so on the
basis that the output values are 'consumables' and might need replacing in
as little as just over 90 days. (And by implication, replaced again on such
a routine short timescale.) No doubt savvy ones do. But do *all* of them
?... The issue is complicated because some makers may soup up the stress on
the valves more than others. So it may not be clear to the buyer what kind
of life to expect for that particular amp design.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Jim Lesurf wrote:


I also wonder if *all* buyers of valve power amps knowingly do so on the
basis that the output values are 'consumables' and might need replacing in
as little as just over 90 days.


** That is not what the 90 day limit really means !!

Warranties on consumer items do not cover fair wear and tear, the effects of unusual and harsh usage or commercial use.

A 90 day old valve amplifier might have had 24/7 operation and clocked up 2160 hours. In some designs, that would equate to the average expected lifetime of a perfectly good output valve - especially as they ALL come from China and Russia these days.

(IME - the Chinese have no clue or inclination to make reliable valves and Russians workers are too ****ed or ****ed off to bother trying. )

The nature of the failure is also crucial - the maker is offering 90 days free replacement for any valve that fails *inexplicably*.

That same maker offers NO free replacement for any valve that fails *explicably* - like having broken glass or bent pins.

If most or all the valves are damaged or fail within 90 days - the maker is well justified in assuming serious abuse has occurred and denying warranty.

Some hi-fi valve amplifiers push the output valves to their absolute limits and beyond - particularly Class A designs - while some owners like to push it even further by not allowing good free air circulation during use and mismatching the load impedance.

There is nothing straight forward about the situation and TW is just being a mischievous PITA troll with his idiotic proclamation of it all being a con.

The con artist is TW himself, a notorious one I might add.



.... Phil

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
I also wonder if *all* buyers of valve power amps knowingly do so on the
basis that the output values are 'consumables' and might need replacing
in as little as just over 90 days. (And by implication, replaced again
on such a routine short timescale.) No doubt savvy ones do. But do *all*
of them ?... The issue is complicated because some makers may soup up
the stress on the valves more than others. So it may not be clear to the
buyer what kind of life to expect for that particular amp design.

Last valve amps I had were Quad II. They certainly didn't need new output
valves every three months - and neither did the hundreds of valve power
amps the BBC used at the same time either. No one in their right mind
would build such a device. Or certainly not for commercial sales.

--
*When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 19/03/2015 8:33 PM, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article ,
Trevor Wilson wrote:
**I don't have a problem with a valve amp manufacturer advertising that
the product has a 90 day warranty. It's the 5 year (or whatever) claims
that are bull****.

I wonder if the courts in the UK/EU might "have a problem" with such
consumer goods offerred with a 90 day warranty. AIUI The law here tends to
specify that the term should be at least a year or two for 'free' repair or
replacement. A warranty can *add* or *extend* this, but not reduce it.

That said, the laws on such issues are routinely ignored by manufacturers
because they know its a civil matter and most aggreved buyers can be fobbed
off without them being up to taking the matter to court.

I also wonder if *all* buyers of valve power amps knowingly do so on the
basis that the output values are 'consumables' and might need replacing in
as little as just over 90 days. (And by implication, replaced again on such
a routine short timescale.) No doubt savvy ones do. But do *all* of them
?... The issue is complicated because some makers may soup up the stress on
the valves more than others. So it may not be clear to the buyer what kind
of life to expect for that particular amp design.


**Here is one company which supplies a decent warranty on their product:

http://www.mingda.co.uk/

Presumably, there is enough meat in their profit margin to allow such a
generous warranty period for valves. Dunno about the UK, but Chinese
audio products, in Australia, often tend to be hugely over-priced.



--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

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