A interesting concept
 

A friend of mine has recently had his
55th birthday. On the same day he
was made redundant by the broadcast
organisation for which he has worked
all his life.

He was too young to throw in the
towel, so he decided to set up his
own small studio, specialising in
baroque and small classical ensembles
- his area of expertise.

He found a very fine location, a small
deconsecrated church in a village environment.
It is a fine wooden building, and like many
Lutheran churches has a floor plan in the
shape of a cross. He intended at first, to use it
as a purely classical, but realises that with most
studios it is pop music that pays the rent.

He told me that he had always considered
the control room window to be not just a
physical, but also a creative barrier in the
music making process. So his solution was to
have the control area built on a large octagonal
wooden platform, on rubber wheels which enable it to be
moved to any position within the recording space.
At the northern end he had build a room with drum
booth, bass traps, acoustic tiles and curtains (velvet drapes)
for pop sessions, and the rest of the space is open plan.

To solve the question of monitoring while recording, he
decided to use cordless headphones. Together we tried
Bluetooth which proved to be acceptable in the close
vicinity of the source, as in the control area, but not
practical for foldback in the recording area.
So he bought 24 pairs of Sennhesier RS 140
wireless headphones.

Each headset comes with an inductive charging cradle
which is also the FM transmitter with a power of 10mW
working at three selectable frequencies 863-865MHz,
perfect for monitor, and foldback 1+2. So he set up a
groups of three transmitters at eight points in the
recording area.

The audio systems were wired and working, building,
airconditioning, and electrical contractors were still
on site when I last visited, with work on schedule,
and he plans to open in November.

He has a firm 14 day booking for his first project,
music by Johan Helmich Roman (1694-1756) -
the Swedish Handel.

And the client? His previous employer!

Nice:-)

Iain






Instead of having a sel

A interesting concept
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

[snip]
To solve the question of monitoring while recording, he
decided to use cordless headphones. Together we tried
Bluetooth which proved to be acceptable in the close
vicinity of the source, as in the control area, but not
practical for foldback in the recording area.
So he bought 24 pairs of Sennhesier RS 140
wireless headphones.

Hmm. Pretty well known that things recorded on headphones will only sound
their best when listened to on headphones.

And if he his looking for pop work, can't think of any client who would be
happy with only this.

The idea of having the control area on some form of movable pod is novel,
but The problems involved in doing so make me ponder. ;-)

--
*You can't teach an old mouse new clicks *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A interesting concept
 

Dave Plowman (Nutcase) wrote:



Hmm. Pretty well known that things recorded on headphones will only sound
their best when listened to on headphones.


** Only well known to lunatics like the Plowmaniac.


I am reminded of the advertising campaign used by JBL for several years where they claimed that since the majority of US pop/jazz music studios used JBL monitors in their for control rooms - it was only logical to use JBL brand speakers in your home, in order to hear the sound as the engineers intended.

Luckily, most audiophiles ignored this patent absurdity and used much better speakers instead.



..... Phil



..... Phil

An interesting concept
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

[snip]
To solve the question of monitoring while recording, he
decided to use cordless headphones. Together we tried
Bluetooth which proved to be acceptable in the close
vicinity of the source, as in the control area, but not
practical for foldback in the recording area.
So he bought 24 pairs of Sennhesier RS 140
wireless headphones.

Hmm. Pretty well known that things recorded on headphones will only sound
their best when listened to on headphones.

Indeed. They say the same about Tannoys:-)

In his music room at home, my colleague has a
pair of B+W Nautilus speakers,the same model
which up until now he has used in his daily work.
So his audio reference is well and truly ingrained.
He also has many hundreds of fine recordings, so
the next few weeks will be spent in comparative
listening on speakers and headphones to
"acclimatise" himself, just as location or freelance
engineers and producers do when move from place
to place. His task will be simpler as he only has two
monitor systems, the B+W and his 'phones to compare.

But there is a huge practical advantage to his idea.
The objective of classical recording is to
capture as faithfully as possible the sound
of the music being recorded in that particular acoustic.
With this system he can sit among the players, or
behind the conductor's podium, or even on a stepladder
level with the top of the front line mics, and soak up
the sound in the recording area. Then, without walking
a step, he can put his headphones on, and hear his conrol
room monitor balance. I think producers will like this too.
They can sit close to the conductor.and still be in the
control area, as the 'phones are cordless and offer
complete freedom of movement..

Traditionally, at the end of a good take, more than
half the orchestra want to hear their performance
played back. Even though there are probably tracking
speakers in the studio to which the monitoring can easily
be routed, they prefer to put down their instruments,
cross the studio and crowd into the control room.
Only when everyone is in place, and the door closed,
does the playback begin. Then, they all file out,
cross the studio, sit down and pick up their instruments.
This takes a lot of (very valuable) time.
With a large orchestra the clock is ticking in multiples
of the pound sterling, and the bean counters are
tearing their hair! With the new system, the players
stay put, put on a pair of headphones, and listen to
the playback at the volume of their choice from their
own chair.

During a prolonged listening session, my colleague
acknowledged a preference for the Decca tree over
AB or XY pairs with outriggers so often used used in
broadcast, so in what I call the West aisle, he has
set up a tree to the precise Decca spec with vintage
Neumanns which will become a permanent fixture.
He then simply has to lay out the chairs beneath it.
He is spoilt for space, and so he can have a
semi-permanent multi-mic brass or woodwind set up in
say the East aisle, and just turn his octagonal platform
to "´face the music"

And if he his looking for pop work, can't think of any client who would be
happy with only this.

How can you know until you discuss it with them?

I think many will be intrigued by such an
innovative idea.

Instead of an "open day" with dozens of people
milling around, I suggesred inviting potential clients,
producers, A+R, musicians etc separately
to a private visiti, to discuss their needs.
He will offer them recording "pilots" (a
weekend at half tariff to record three titles, then
overdub and mix) If the client is not happy,
and decides not to continue, he will not receive
an invoice. This is common practice in studios
wishing to expand their clientele.

His principle intention is not to do pop rhythm
(backing) tracks, but tracking, - (strings, brass,
woodwinds/saxes etc) taking advantage of the
natural acoustic of the recording space, which
I think will work well.

But, I also have an inkling that a Slingerland Radio King
double drum kit will sound amazing in that recording space,
as will a Strat with a Marshall full stack! Time will tell.

The idea of having the control area on some form of movable pod is novel,
but The problems involved in doing so make me ponder. ;-)

Yes. Copious pondering is required. But he who dares.........

Iain

An interesting concept
 

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

I am reminded of the advertising campaign used by JBL for
several years where they claimed that since the majority of US pop/jazz
music studios
used JBL monitors in their for control rooms - it was only
logical to use JBL brand speakers in your home, in order to hear the sound
as the engineers intended.

Yes I remember that too. Clever advertising, and
by all accounts successful. A lot of people bought
the JBL Century 100's for home use.

The UK record company where I worked
had a monster pair of JBLs in studio II.
They were put up only when a client (usually
American) specifically asked for them.

The canteen also bought in Budweiser beer.
There is no accounting for taste:-)

Iain

A interesting concept
 

Well there you go, but it must have cost a pretty penny to do all of this,
so instead of retiring to Barbados on his money he used it to start a
business.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...
A friend of mine has recently had his
55th birthday. On the same day he
was made redundant by the broadcast
organisation for which he has worked
all his life.

He was too young to throw in the
towel, so he decided to set up his
own small studio, specialising in
baroque and small classical ensembles
- his area of expertise.

He found a very fine location, a small
deconsecrated church in a village environment.
It is a fine wooden building, and like many
Lutheran churches has a floor plan in the
shape of a cross. He intended at first, to use it
as a purely classical, but realises that with most
studios it is pop music that pays the rent.

He told me that he had always considered
the control room window to be not just a
physical, but also a creative barrier in the
music making process. So his solution was to
have the control area built on a large octagonal
wooden platform, on rubber wheels which enable it to be
moved to any position within the recording space.
At the northern end he had build a room with drum
booth, bass traps, acoustic tiles and curtains (velvet drapes)
for pop sessions, and the rest of the space is open plan.

To solve the question of monitoring while recording, he
decided to use cordless headphones. Together we tried
Bluetooth which proved to be acceptable in the close
vicinity of the source, as in the control area, but not
practical for foldback in the recording area.
So he bought 24 pairs of Sennhesier RS 140
wireless headphones.

Each headset comes with an inductive charging cradle
which is also the FM transmitter with a power of 10mW
working at three selectable frequencies 863-865MHz,
perfect for monitor, and foldback 1+2. So he set up a
groups of three transmitters at eight points in the
recording area.

The audio systems were wired and working, building,
airconditioning, and electrical contractors were still
on site when I last visited, with work on schedule,
and he plans to open in November.

He has a firm 14 day booking for his first project,
music by Johan Helmich Roman (1694-1756) -
the Swedish Handel.

And the client? His previous employer!

Nice:-)

Iain






Instead of having a sel

A interesting concept
 

Yes you can tell some of the bbc pop stuff sounds like it was mixed on
headphones as its very narrow and boring unless listened to on headphones.
There have over the years been lots of attempts to design headphones that
sound like speakers, and I never liked any of them. I guess though that he
probably still has an enviroment somewhere with traditional monitors in it
for that purpose. A lot of people use software mixers and effects these
days.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

[snip]
To solve the question of monitoring while recording, he
decided to use cordless headphones. Together we tried
Bluetooth which proved to be acceptable in the close
vicinity of the source, as in the control area, but not
practical for foldback in the recording area.
So he bought 24 pairs of Sennhesier RS 140
wireless headphones.

Hmm. Pretty well known that things recorded on headphones will only sound
their best when listened to on headphones.

And if he his looking for pop work, can't think of any client who would be
happy with only this.

The idea of having the control area on some form of movable pod is novel,
but The problems involved in doing so make me ponder. ;-)

--
*You can't teach an old mouse new clicks *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

An interesting concept
 

Its a bit like Tannoy dual concentrics. I still use a pair, but i would most
certainly not call them uncoloured, but I happen to like the sound myself.
People tell me they sound metallic.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

I am reminded of the advertising campaign used by JBL for
several years where they claimed that since the majority of US pop/jazz
music studios
used JBL monitors in their for control rooms - it was only
logical to use JBL brand speakers in your home, in order to hear the
sound as the engineers intended.

Yes I remember that too. Clever advertising, and
by all accounts successful. A lot of people bought
the JBL Century 100's for home use.

The UK record company where I worked
had a monster pair of JBLs in studio II.
They were put up only when a client (usually
American) specifically asked for them.

The canteen also bought in Budweiser beer.
There is no accounting for taste:-)

Iain

An interesting concept
 

Hello Brian,

I have top posted for you. Hope that is OK.

Speakers are so much matter of taste.
I have a pair of Tannoy Lancasters which I
listen to daily. They please me as much now
as the day I took them home. I also have some
large Kef (ex BBC monitors) and a pair of B+Ws
They all sound very good, but very very different:-)

When I was at Decca, Tannoy Lancasters
(and a few pairs of Canterburys) were the standard
monitor throughout the whole facility, studios, mixing
suites, cutting rooms, editing and copy suites. Thousands
of very fine recording were made on Tannoys.

We made a direct to disc recording for Peter
Walker, using Tannoy monitors. Even he admitted
they were "rather pleasing"

I have never heard anyone describe them at metallic.

Iain


"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
Its a bit like Tannoy dual concentrics. I still use a pair, but i would
most certainly not call them uncoloured, but I happen to like the sound
myself. People tell me they sound metallic.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

I am reminded of the advertising campaign used by JBL for
several years where they claimed that since the majority of US pop/jazz
music studios
used JBL monitors in their for control rooms - it was only
logical to use JBL brand speakers in your home, in order to hear the
sound as the engineers intended.

Yes I remember that too. Clever advertising, and
by all accounts successful. A lot of people bought
the JBL Century 100's for home use.

The UK record company where I worked
had a monster pair of JBLs in studio II.
They were put up only when a client (usually
American) specifically asked for them.

The canteen also bought in Budweiser beer.
There is no accounting for taste:-)

Iain

A interesting concept
 

In article ,
Phil Allison wrote:
Dave Plowman (Nutcase) wrote:



Hmm. Pretty well known that things recorded on headphones will only
sound their best when listened to on headphones.


** Only well known to lunatics like the Plowmaniac.

Some 40 years of actually balancing sound for a living tells me different.
That you've no experience of the obvious differences just tells me you
have ears of cloth.


I am reminded of the advertising campaign used by JBL for several years
where they claimed that since the majority of US pop/jazz music studios
used JBL monitors in their for control rooms - it was only logical to
use JBL brand speakers in your home, in order to hear the sound as the
engineers intended.

There is also some truth in that. Using exactly the same loudspeakers is
likely to give the most consistent results. But saying all models from one
maker sound the same is nonsense. Even before you take into account the
room acoustics.

Luckily, most audiophiles ignored this patent absurdity and used much
better speakers instead.

You think you need to be an 'audiophile' to realise advertising is not
always 100% true?

You must lead a *very* sheltered life.



.... Phil



.... Phil

--
*A day without sunshine is like... night.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

An interesting concept
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Hmm. Pretty well known that things recorded on headphones will only
sound their best when listened to on headphones.

Indeed. They say the same about Tannoys:-)

Do they? It's a very long time since I've seen Tannoy or Tannoy based
speakers used as monitors in a serious studio. Except where a client
demands them.

They certainly had some good points, but neutrality was never one.

--
*Confession is good for the soul, but bad for your career.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

An interesting concept
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
And if he his looking for pop work, can't think of any client who
would be happy with only this.

How can you know until you discuss it with them?

It's an informed guess.

I think many will be intrigued by such an
innovative idea.

I'd hope he's already researched the idea before spending vast sums on it.

Of course I wish him luck. But he wouldn't be the first to blow redundancy
money on untested ideas.

--
*Learn from your parents' mistakes - use birth control.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A interesting concept
 

Dave Plowman ( Nutcase ) wrote:


Hmm. Pretty well known that things recorded on headphones will only
sound their best when listened to on headphones.


** Only well known to lunatics like the Plowmaniac.


Some 40 years of actually balancing sound for a living tells me different.



** Do the demonic voices in your head say that to you - Dave ??

While you are sleeping or awake - or is it both ?



I am reminded of the advertising campaign used by JBL for several years
where they claimed that since the majority of US pop/jazz music studios
used JBL monitors in their for control rooms - it was only logical to
use JBL brand speakers in your home, in order to hear the sound as the
engineers intended.

There is also some truth in that.



** There is not one, tiny bit of truth in it.

For the record:

Dave Nutcase is a revolting pile of narcissistic, pommy puke.

On a good day, that is....



..... Phil

An interesting concept
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
And if he his looking for pop work, can't think of any client who
would be happy with only this.

How can you know until you discuss it with them?

It's an informed guess.

I thought so:-)))

I think many will be intrigued by such an
innovative idea.

I'd hope he's already researched the idea before spending vast sums on it.

You can be sure of that. The investment comes from
venture capital (about half from the UK)

Of course I wish him luck. But he wouldn't be the first to blow redundancy
money on untested ideas.

He can still push the octagonal platform into a corner, and have a carpenter
build prefabricated walls, three with windows, and a roof, and put his B+W
speakers up if required.

But I don't think it will be necessary, he business plan is sound.
(No pun intended)

Iain

A interesting concept
 

In article ,
Phil Allison wrote:
Dave Plowman ( Nutcase ) wrote:


Hmm. Pretty well known that things recorded on headphones will only
sound their best when listened to on headphones.


** Only well known to lunatics like the Plowmaniac.


Some 40 years of actually balancing sound for a living tells me
different.



** Do the demonic voices in your head say that to you - Dave ??

That from the Oz nutcase most will only remember from the wobblies he's
thrown on here...


Pet, if you've not got anything useful to contribute to a discussion, why
waste the bandwidth?

--
*He who laughs last, thinks slowest.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

An interesting concept
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
And if he his looking for pop work, can't think of any client who
would be happy with only this.

How can you know until you discuss it with them?

It's an informed guess.

I thought so:-)))

Should add I discussed the idea with a pretty experienced keyboards
player/composer. Who confirmed that guess. ;-)

I think many will be intrigued by such an
innovative idea.

I'd hope he's already researched the idea before spending vast sums on
it.

You can be sure of that. The investment comes from venture capital
(about half from the UK)

All with no ties?

Of course I wish him luck. But he wouldn't be the first to blow
redundancy money on untested ideas.

He can still push the octagonal platform into a corner, and have a
carpenter build prefabricated walls, three with windows, and a roof, and
put his B+W speakers up if required.

I'd expect rather more than a carpenter needed to construct a decent
control room.

But I don't think it will be necessary, he business plan is sound. (No
pun intended)

I do wish him success. Sadly the recording studio business is rather
fickle.

--
*I have plenty of talent and vision. I just don't care.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

A interesting concept
 

Dave Plowmaniac (Nutcase Psycho) wrote:



Hmm. Pretty well known that things recorded on headphones will only
sound their best when listened to on headphones.


** Only well known to lunatics like the Plowmaniac.


Some 40 years of actually balancing sound for a living tells me
different.



** Do the demonic voices in your head say that to you - Dave ??


That from the Oz nutcase most will only remember from the wobblies he's
thrown on here...


Pet,


** Forget being clever with me, you asinine pile of pommy excreta.

Your putrid stench reaches all the way to Australia.

Kindly FOAD.


..... Phil

A interesting concept
 

In article ,
Phil Allison wrote:
That from the Oz nutcase most will only remember from the wobblies he's
thrown on here...


Pet,


** Forget being clever with me, you asinine pile of pommy excreta.

Your putrid stench reaches all the way to Australia.

Thanks for confirming my point.

You are just sooooooooooooooo predictable.

--
*What was the best thing before sliced bread? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

An interesting concept
 

Iain Churches wrote:


Yes I remember that too. Clever advertising, and
by all accounts successful. A lot of people bought
the JBL Century 100's for home use.


** That would have to be a lot of Americans who bought them.

Back in the early 70s, I worked briefly for a store in Sydney that sold electronic components, kits for magazine projects and a couple of speaker kits.

One of these happened to be the KEF kit 3 containing the drivers and crossover needed for a KEF Concerto, minus box. Particle board boxes were also available as pre-cut kits.

A built pair kits was on constant demo, A-B switched with a pair of JBL L100s with their bright orange front grilles - see pic:

http://product-images.highwire.com/8593684/2748-2.jpg

Despite a price difference of more than 2:1, the JBLs sounded very poor, " thick and coloured like tomato soup" was one comment and with remarkably little bass. The store sold many KEF kit 3s and no JBLs on the basis of that demo while I was there.

I bought a pair of KEF kit 3s then too, later improving them with rebuilt crossovers plus massively deadened the cabinets. Sold them a couple of years on at a small profit, after buying a second hand pair of ESL57s.

I kept them for nearly 30 years.


..... Phil

An interesting concept
 

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...
Iain Churches wrote:


Yes I remember that too. Clever advertising, and
by all accounts successful. A lot of people bought
the JBL Century 100's for home use.


** That would have to be a lot of Americans who bought them.

Back in the early 70s, I worked briefly for a store in Sydney that
sold electronic components, kits for magazine projects and a couple
of speaker kits.

One of these happened to be the KEF kit 3 containing the drivers and
crossover needed for a KEF Concerto, minus box. Particle board boxes
were also available as pre-cut kits.

A built pair kits was on constant demo, A-B switched with a pair of
JBL L100s with their bright orange front grilles - see pic:

http://product-images.highwire.com/8593684/2748-2.jpg

Despite a price difference of more than 2:1, the JBLs sounded very
poor, " thick and coloured like tomato soup" was one comment and
with remarkably little bass. The store sold many KEF kit 3s and no
JBLs on the basis of that demo while I was there.

I bought a pair of KEF kit 3s then too, later improving them with
rebuilt crossovers plus massively deadened the cabinets. Sold them a
couple of years on at a small profit, after buying a second hand
pair of ESL57s.

I kept them for nearly 30 years.



A colleague of mine built a pair of transmission line cabinets using
the same kits based on the design published by Dr Arthur Bailey of
Bradford University in Wireless World in 1972. Whilst they were less
good at stereo imaging than many other (mostly two-way) designs they
produced a naturalness of sound that I have ever heard from any other
speaker save Quad ESLs and possibly one of the Philips MFB designs.

My colleague got married and moved into a terraced house where he did
not have the room for them so I bought them off him for £55 in about
1976 (the drive units alone were worth well over £100 retail) and we
kept them until my Management decided they were too big and had to go
somewhere in the early 90's. I was heartbroken and as I could not sell
them I removed the drive units and broke up the cabinets - I still
have those drivers boxed up in my (very dry) garage!

My F-in-L is an organist so there is a love of organ music around
here. I have never heard any speaker that can reproduce organ pedals -
particularly the reeds - with such clarity and realism. Real window
shakers at 10 paces from a 20W amp!

Since then I have had a pair of Spendor BC1's (still have them) and am
currently running a pair of KEF Q55's but neither were/are anywhere
near as pleasant and comfortable to listen to as those TL's.


--
Woody

harrogate3 at ntlworld dot com

An interesting concept
 

I bought a pair of KEF kit 3s then too, later improving them with rebuilt
crossovers plus massively deadened the cabinets. Sold them a couple of years on
at a small profit, after buying a second hand pair of ESL57s.

I kept them for nearly 30 years.


.... Phil

Still got the ESL57's?...
--
Tony Sayer

An interesting concept
 

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:

I bought a pair of KEF kit 3s then too, later improving them with
rebuilt crossovers plus massively deadened the cabinets. Sold them a
couple of years on at a small profit, after buying a second hand pair
of ESL57s.

I kept them for nearly 30 years.


.... Phil

Still got the ESL57's?...

Can you still get them fixed? Pal had a pair, and they tended to need
fixing every few years. But did sound wonderful when good.

--
*It sounds like English, but I can't understand a word you're saying.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

An interesting concept
 

tony sayer wrote:


I bought a pair of KEF kit 3s then too, later improving them with rebuilt
crossovers plus massively deadened the cabinets.
Sold them a couple of years on
at a small profit, after buying a second hand pair of ESL57s.

I kept them for nearly 30 years.


Still got the ESL57's?...
--


** No, thirty years expired in 2002.

Since then I entertained borrowed ESL63s driven by Quad 405s and 306s for a long while - verrrry nice.

Then I purchased a pair of used ESL63s from an authorised Quad dealer and unfortunately had to return them for a full refund. You do NOT wanna know the legal hassles that involved.

Now I content myself with a pair of 3-way speakers, employing all Vifa drivers in *heavily modified* cabinets that once housed AR2Axs.

I fancy they sound rather better than KEF Concertos but not quite as good as the phenomenal Yamaha NS1000s.



..... Phil

An interesting concept
 

"Woody" wrote in message
...

A colleague of mine built a pair of transmission line cabinets using the
same kits based on the design published by Dr Arthur Bailey of Bradford
University in Wireless World in 1972. Whilst they were less good at stereo
imaging than many other (mostly two-way) designs they produced a
naturalness of sound that I have ever heard from any other speaker save
Quad ESLs and possibly one of the Philips MFB designs.

Since then I have had a pair of Spendor BC1's (still have them) and am
currently running a pair of KEF Q55's but neither were/are anywhere near
as pleasant and comfortable to listen to as those TL's.

Dr Bailey took out a patent with Arthur Radford for the TLs.
Each speaker had a special Radford valve power amp build into the stand
as the speaker impedance was 25 Ohms.

The studio were I worked in London had a pair which were
little if ever used, so I asked if I could borrow them. My
request was granted and I had them at home for about a year.
My next door neighbour was away for very long spells in the merchant
marine, so I greatly enjoyed window-rattling performances of
organ music by Bach, and Buxtehude. These speakers were exceptional.

Iain

An interesting concept
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

Dave wrote:
I'd hope he's already researched the idea before spending vast sums on
it.

You can be sure of that. The investment comes from venture capital
(about half from the UK)

All with no ties?

I stated clearly above the company is financed by venture capital.

Since the Brexit decision, sterling has taken a tumble, (it is a 1.185 Euros
today) and UK merchant bankers are very keen to make solid investments
in the EU before the door closes on them. So they are currently offering
terms more advantageous than their German, French or Swedish
counterparts.

Of course I wish him luck. But he wouldn't be the first to blow
redundancy money on untested ideas.

It takes a considerably more than a termination of contract payment
to set up a classical recordiing studio Check out the price tag of an
AWS 948 console from SSL, or a Lawo mc2 90.

Iain

An interesting concept
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Of course I wish him luck. But he wouldn't be the first to blow
redundancy money on untested ideas.

It takes a considerably more than a termination of contract payment
to set up a classical recordiing studio Check out the price tag of an
AWS 948 console from SSL, or a Lawo mc2 90.

He's managed to find someone to take all the risk? Good for him.

BTW, was discussing the idea with a pro musician friend of mine - mainly
concentrating on the headphone side. He was adamant he wouldn't use any
studio without a conventional control room and speakers.

--
*I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

An interesting concept
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

He's managed to find someone to take all the risk? Good for him.

No. It is a venture capital company.

BTW, was discussing the idea with a pro musician friend of mine - mainly
concentrating on the headphone side. He was adamant he wouldn't use any
studio without a conventional control room and speakers.

I know dozens of pro musicians with whom I work daily.
They play where they get paid to play, and are happy to do so:-)

Iain

An interesting concept
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Woody" wrote in message
...

A colleague of mine built a pair of transmission line cabinets
using the
same kits based on the design published by Dr Arthur Bailey of
Bradford
University in Wireless World in 1972. Whilst they were less good at
stereo
imaging than many other (mostly two-way) designs they produced a
naturalness of sound that I have ever heard from any other speaker
save
Quad ESLs and possibly one of the Philips MFB designs.

Since then I have had a pair of Spendor BC1's (still have them) and
am
currently running a pair of KEF Q55's but neither were/are anywhere
near
as pleasant and comfortable to listen to as those TL's.

Dr Bailey took out a patent with Arthur Radford for the TLs.
Each speaker had a special Radford valve power amp build into the
stand
as the speaker impedance was 25 Ohms.

The studio were I worked in London had a pair which were
little if ever used, so I asked if I could borrow them. My
request was granted and I had them at home for about a year.
My next door neighbour was away for very long spells in the merchant
marine, so I greatly enjoyed window-rattling performances of
organ music by Bach, and Buxtehude. These speakers were exceptional.



I used to have a compilation disc to show how good Denon recordings
were. It had a piece of Bach on it recorded in Limburg Cathedral that
had reeds on the pedals that I have never been able to hear on any
other speakers - same a pair of borrowed Cambridge R50's which were
essentially the same design principle anyway.

The Bailey TLs were almost the same as the IMF TLS50's and 80's - but
I could never have afforded them. The BC1's were ex BBC and only cost
me £70 - about a tenth of their then retail cost.


--
Woody

harrogate3 at ntlworld dot com

An interesting concept
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

He's managed to find someone to take all the risk? Good for him.

No. It is a venture capital company.

BTW, was discussing the idea with a pro musician friend of mine -
mainly concentrating on the headphone side. He was adamant he wouldn't
use any studio without a conventional control room and speakers.

I know dozens of pro musicians with whom I work daily.
They play where they get paid to play, and are happy to do so:-)

This one is rather more than just a jobbing musician, though. Composes and
arranges too. And does sometimes have a say in the studios used - since he
will be there in an executive position rather than just playing.

Must admit to being surprised you think you'd get away without a decent
soundproof control room and speakers. You can't be the first hoping to cut
costs like this.

--
*You can't have everything, where would you put it?*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

An interesting concept
 

In article ,
Woody wrote:
The Bailey TLs were almost the same as the IMF TLS50's and 80's - but
I could never have afforded them. The BC1's were ex BBC and only cost
me £70 - about a tenth of their then retail cost.

My BC1s cost about 70 quid new - from the factory, and ordered up sort of
via the BBC in the early 70s. Serial numbers just over 1000.

--
*Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

An interesting concept
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
BTW, was discussing the idea with a pro musician friend of mine - mainly
concentrating on the headphone side. He was adamant he wouldn't use any
studio without a conventional control room and speakers.

I remember the same Luddite atttitude from
string players who were adamant that they
would only track to speakers, and the use of
headphones was out of the question.
Despite this, tracking with headphones soon
became standard practise and yielded far
better results. The ubiquitous GRFs had their
dust covers fitted and were pushed into dark
corners years ago.along with the Baldwin pianos
amd the Mellotrons. No one asks for tracking
speakers any mo-)

In professional recording, supply of would-be
studio musicians exceeds the demand many
times over, so professionalism is much in
evidence, and adamancy is rarely seen -
(except for players who say "instead of coffee,
can we have another take? I am *sure* I can
play it better" ::-)

Iain

An interesting concept
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

This one is rather more than just a jobbing musician, though.

Studio players chosen by the orchestral contractor and are
the finest professional players - you do them a great
disservice by calling them "jobbing musicians" :-((

Must admit to being surprised you think you'd get away without a decent
soundproof control room and speakers. You can't be the first hoping to cut
costs like this.

This has nothing to do with cost cutting, (the Steinway Model B is
evidence of that!) but it stems from the idea of eliminating the
physical and artistic barrier of the control room window, and
providing a monitor/foldback system which is identical for
everyone wherever they are sitting. He already has a pair of
B+W Nautilus speakers, and eight custom-made wall segments
and a ceiling to form a control room would hardly make a dent in
the budget. But they would negate the concept of the producer
and engineers sitting in the same acoustic only feet away from
the players themselves.


So often, after a good take, half the orchestra want to crowd
into the control room to listen. The client, the producer, the
engineer and his assistant have seats in the sweet spot.
The players sit or stand wherever then can find room. They
all hear a different balance. So, the lady harpist who has squeezed
in to the control room far left, will probably say "the harp seems
a little weak" If she had been sitting on the right, she would have
thought it too loud.

Now, if she picks up a pair of headphones hanging beneath
her music stand, she, and everyone else will hear the
control monitor balance - as it is intended to be.


Iain

An interesting concept
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
BTW, was discussing the idea with a pro musician friend of mine - mainly
concentrating on the headphone side. He was adamant he wouldn't use any
studio without a conventional control room and speakers.

I remember the same Luddite atttitude from
string players who were adamant that they
would only track to speakers, and the use of
headphones was out of the question.

That must have been a long long time ago. Fiddle players were wearing cans
while I still worked for the BBC - some 40 years ago. 'We' even had
specials for them - with only one ear piece.

BTW, think you need to re-consider Luddite. Cans were the first type of
monitoring. Look at early broadcast stuff. So luddite would be going back
to that - despite speakers being so much better.

Despite this, tracking with headphones soon
became standard practise and yielded far
better results. The ubiquitous GRFs had their
dust covers fitted and were pushed into dark
corners years ago.along with the Baldwin pianos
amd the Mellotrons. No one asks for tracking
speakers any mo-)

Still common to supply a foldback speaker(s) in an orch area so they can
follow acts when not playing in say a variety show. If they want to.

In professional recording, supply of would-be
studio musicians exceeds the demand many
times over, so professionalism is much in
evidence, and adamancy is rarely seen -
(except for players who say "instead of coffee,
can we have another take? I am *sure* I can
play it better" ::-)

And the supply of recording studios exceeds demand too. So unless you are
providing something the client wants, you'll go out of business.

--
*Why do overlook and oversee mean opposite things? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

An interesting concept
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

This one is rather more than just a jobbing musician, though.

Studio players chosen by the orchestral contractor and are
the finest professional players - you do them a great
disservice by calling them "jobbing musicians" :-((

Thanks for putting me right Iain. Now go out and ask some jobbing
musicians about your friends ideas. The one I discussed it with has far
more experience at the 'pop' end than anyone else I know.

Must admit to being surprised you think you'd get away without a decent
soundproof control room and speakers. You can't be the first hoping to cut
costs like this.

This has nothing to do with cost cutting, (the Steinway Model B is
evidence of that!) but it stems from the idea of eliminating the
physical and artistic barrier of the control room window, and
providing a monitor/foldback system which is identical for
everyone wherever they are sitting. He already has a pair of
B+W Nautilus speakers, and eight custom-made wall segments
and a ceiling to form a control room would hardly make a dent in
the budget. But they would negate the concept of the producer
and engineers sitting in the same acoustic only feet away from
the players themselves.

Odd then after all these years and years he is the first to think of it.


So often, after a good take, half the orchestra want to crowd
into the control room to listen. The client, the producer, the
engineer and his assistant have seats in the sweet spot.
The players sit or stand wherever then can find room. They
all hear a different balance. So, the lady harpist who has squeezed
in to the control room far left, will probably say "the harp seems
a little weak" If she had been sitting on the right, she would have
thought it too loud.

And will be ignored, unless so. Every single player will have a different
view on what is a good balance. Hence it being left to those in charge at
the end of the day. I'm utterly surprised you've not found that the very
best musician may not be the best sound balancer.

Now, if she picks up a pair of headphones hanging beneath
her music stand, she, and everyone else will hear the
control monitor balance - as it is intended to be.

In any decent studio it is trivial to send the monitoring mix to musician
cans for a replay. And you always keep the 'orchestra' present when doing
the final mix? You must work with different budgets from me.

But sadly a very poor balance in all probability for the paying customers
- those who listen at home on speakers. So I take it you missed my
original point entirely?


Decent monitoring in any control room has always been one of the most
difficult things to achieve, and costs many thousands. If replacing that
with a cheaper set of cans was satisfactory, don't you think it would have
been done a million times before?

--
*Time is the best teacher; unfortunately it kills all its students.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

An interesting concept
 

In article , Iain Churches
scribeth thus

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

Dave wrote:
I'd hope he's already researched the idea before spending vast sums on
it.

You can be sure of that. The investment comes from venture capital
(about half from the UK)

All with no ties?

I stated clearly above the company is financed by venture capital.

Since the Brexit decision, sterling has taken a tumble, (it is a 1.185 Euros
today) and UK merchant bankers are very keen to make solid investments
in the EU before the door closes on them. So they are currently offering
terms more advantageous than their German, French or Swedish
counterparts.

Of course I wish him luck. But he wouldn't be the first to blow
redundancy money on untested ideas.



It takes a considerably more than a termination of contract payment
to set up a classical recordiing studio Check out the price tag of an
AWS 948 console from SSL, or a Lawo mc2 90.

Iain



Well would he be buying a new one, no good used around?..
--
Tony Sayer

An interesting concept
 

In article , Iain Churches
scribeth thus

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

This one is rather more than just a jobbing musician, though.

Studio players chosen by the orchestral contractor and are
the finest professional players - you do them a great
disservice by calling them "jobbing musicians" :-((

Must admit to being surprised you think you'd get away without a decent
soundproof control room and speakers. You can't be the first hoping to cut
costs like this.

This has nothing to do with cost cutting, (the Steinway Model B is
evidence of that!) but it stems from the idea of eliminating the
physical and artistic barrier of the control room window, and
providing a monitor/foldback system which is identical for
everyone wherever they are sitting. He already has a pair of
B+W Nautilus speakers, and eight custom-made wall segments
and a ceiling to form a control room would hardly make a dent in
the budget. But they would negate the concept of the producer
and engineers sitting in the same acoustic only feet away from
the players themselves.


So often, after a good take, half the orchestra want to crowd
into the control room to listen. The client, the producer, the
engineer and his assistant have seats in the sweet spot.
The players sit or stand wherever then can find room. They
all hear a different balance. So, the lady harpist who has squeezed
in to the control room far left, will probably say "the harp seems
a little weak" If she had been sitting on the right, she would have
thought it too loud.

Now, if she picks up a pair of headphones hanging beneath
her music stand, she, and everyone else will hear the
control monitor balance - as it is intended to be.


Iain





Not wishing to start an argument but over at the cathedral at Ely where
we have to go to from time to time i have seen quite a few recordings
done there with no control room just a man with a very good pair of
phones ...
--
Tony Sayer

An interesting concept
 

In article , Phil
Allison scribeth thus
tony sayer wrote:


I bought a pair of KEF kit 3s then too, later improving them with rebuilt
crossovers plus massively deadened the cabinets.
Sold them a couple of years on
at a small profit, after buying a second hand pair of ESL57s.

I kept them for nearly 30 years.


Still got the ESL57's?...
--


** No, thirty years expired in 2002.

Since then I entertained borrowed ESL63s driven by Quad 405s and 306s for a long
while - verrrry nice.

:-)..

Then I purchased a pair of used ESL63s from an authorised Quad dealer and
unfortunately had to return them for a full refund. You do NOT wanna know the
legal hassles that involved.

Nope!, lots to do with repairing and replacing errant panels no doubt.
And is there anyone K to do that in Oz suppose the carriage back to
Huntingdon is the price of a new pair;!..


Now I content myself with a pair of 3-way speakers, employing all Vifa drivers
in *heavily modified* cabinets that once housed AR2Axs.

I fancy they sound rather better than KEF Concertos but not quite as good as the
phenomenal Yamaha NS1000s.

Yep one of the good designs..



.... Phil



--
Tony Sayer

An interesting concept
 

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Not wishing to start an argument but over at the cathedral at Ely where
we have to go to from time to time i have seen quite a few recordings
done there with no control room just a man with a very good pair of
phones ...

More chance if recording something straightforward and fundamentally self
balanced. As I'd hope something meant to be heard direct by the public
would be.

Totally different with pop stuff.

If you have a very nice hall you want to use as a one off - just park up a
mobile and use that.

--
*Tell me to 'stuff it' - I'm a taxidermist.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

An interesting concept
 

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...

Not wishing to start an argument but over at the cathedral at Ely where
we have to go to from time to time i have seen quite a few recordings
done there with no control room just a man with a very good pair of
phones ...

Yes or course.

There is an excellent series of recordings (made on a Nagra IV
with an pair of Neumann 84s) of early keyboard instruments in the
collection at the V&A. These recordings, like the organ recordings
made at Paisley Abbey at around the same time were monitored on
nothing more illustrious than a pair Beyer DT100 headphones.

Iain

An interesting concept
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Not wishing to start an argument but over at the cathedral at Ely where
we have to go to from time to time i have seen quite a few recordings
done there with no control room just a man with a very good pair of
phones ...

More chance if recording something straightforward and fundamentally self
balanced. As I'd hope something meant to be heard direct by the public
would be.

Totally different with pop stuff.

Why? The studio which is the subject of this thread will be doing
overdubs for "pop stuff" (sic:-) - strings and brass. A producer who
takes a string overdub project to a church will expect a classical
approach. So it is not different at all:-)

Iain