Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

On 21/01/2017 16:42, Iain Churches wrote:
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
I found the problems when they attempted to stereofy things like old
Tornados recordiings makde by Joe Meek. Absolutely awful, as were emis
best of Ruby Murray. and Polidors spicks and specks by the bee giees
originaly made in oz. Then there was the unfortunate lp Capitol put out
of Magical Mystery tour by the beatles with reprocessed mono of Penny
lane etc, which had stereo mixes already.

Agreed. One wonders why electronic stereo versions of any of these were
made. Maybe at the time, it seemed like a good idea? :-)

Money. Or at least, the belief of some of the people at some of the
companies that fiddling about would return more of it. Hence, for example,
the differences between early Beatles LP releases in the USA and the UK.

New 'versions' are seen as money-spinners, which is as I suspect MQA will
be seen in some quarters.


How right you are. Not just record companies but every
company worldwide is there to turn a profit. That's the
raison d'etre of business. But at least those who buy
CDs, DVDs and go to theatre or concerts can choose
what they buy or go to see. Caveat emptor.-

A pal of mine in the UK told me earlier today that the
standard TV licence is now UKP145 and payable in
advance. Can that be correct?


Has been for several years (and has always been payable in advance).


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

Huge said:
On 2017-01-21, Eiron wrote:
On 21/01/2017 16:51, Huge wrote:
On 2017-01-21, Iain Churches wrote:

[31 lines snipped]

A pal of mine in the UK told me earlier today that the
standard TV licence is now UKP145

Actually £145.50.

and payable in
advance.

It always was.

Can that be correct?

Absolute bargain. The Beeb has to be paid for somehow and I'd rather
that than advertising.

The BBC produces absolute ****e.

Sigh. I can't be arsed to argue with someone who "thinks" in absolutes.

*plonk*

The bit about carrying advertising for its own products is right, though,
and I'd rather it was free of adverts.

But I only listen to its radio output, so I don't contribute to its upkeep
either way.


--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
As there wasn't such a demand for such a device in my particular
field as there obviously was in yours.

Did you have close co-operation with BBC Radio?

Given I worked for ITV, unlikely.

You have mentioned being at Thames for a short
time.

In another current thread you talk about your
knowledge of what was being made by BBC TV
when you were there. So my assumption that you
had contacts at BH was natural.

We went to BH several times to discuss ideas.
They had a number of cryptically-numbered black
boxes which they demonstrated to us, and some very
clever people. They could have easily done it for you.

Are you saying BBC radio regularly produced 'stereo' from mono? I'd be
surprised.

Please read again.
Like many others BBC Radio were experimenting
to see what could be done in the field of mono to
stereo conversion. As a result of our meetings at
BH a colleague and I were invited by Desmond Briscoe
to visit the BBC Radiophonic Workshop at Maida Vale.
He was surprised to meet people from outside the Beeb
who had both a technical and musical background (like himself)
and who were familiar with the wonderful ARP 2500 synthesizer.

Iain







Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Have you never lived in the UK, Iain, and bought a TV licence?

Yes for many years.

If so, you'd know it was still as good value as ever.

Well, as it works out at 50p a day
I have to agree:-)

Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Richard Robinson wrote:
The bit about carrying advertising for its own products is right, though,
and I'd rather it was free of adverts.

I'd rather not have adverts in the cinema either. But, like the BBC, they
only run them before the programme starts. Not several times within it.

But I only listen to its radio output, so I don't contribute to its
upkeep either way.

Very surprising the numbers who claim to never watch TV. ;-)

--
*I wished the buck stopped here, as I could use a few*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

On 21-01-17 18:14, Iain Churches wrote:

We can see via satelite some ten or so news channels
BBC World is by far the best, the most in depth and the
most neutral.

Indeed. Beats pretty much anything here in Holland, and definitely
beats everything I remember from Finland, and is much more factual
than most of the stuff in the US.

Julf

(the expat swedish-speaking Finn, living in Amsterdam, married to an
American)

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

Dave Plowman (News) said:
In article ,
Richard Robinson wrote:
The bit about carrying advertising for its own products is right, though,
and I'd rather it was free of adverts.

I'd rather not have adverts in the cinema either. But, like the BBC, they
only run them before the programme starts. Not several times within it.

True. It increases the likelihood of my turning it off rather than seeing
what comes next ...

But I only listen to its radio output, so I don't contribute to its
upkeep either way.

Very surprising the numbers who claim to never watch TV. ;-)

Not me. Going on the last 20 years' average (ono), I expect to watch it for
about an hour a year, while visiting friends who are into it. I have seen
Big Brother, $Somewhere's Got Talent, Springwatch ... More than "never",
anyway.

I've met people who tell me it's "fashionable¨ to claim not to own one, at
the moment. I wouldn't know, these fashion things change so fast ...

I *did* own a telly, once. I had it plugged^Hsoldered into the output of a
Sinclair Spectrum.


--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

Iain Churches wrote:

"Phil Allison"



A LOT of LPs were sold as "mono-stereo compatible" - meaning the vertical
modulation
had been supressed, at least at low frequencies, so the mono PUs would not
miss track or badly damage the grove.

I don't know how records were cut in Oz, but in the
UK the LF was not supressed, but summed as L+R (lateral).


** Read what I wrote slowly.

It says vertical modulation was supressed at low frequencies.

So out of phase or single channel bass was not cut into the groove - summing L and R at low frequencies before cutting did the trick.


Anecdote:

I once had a customer who owned a small recoding studio ( he was able to cut disks on an old Ampex lathe too) and he had made a short musical tape in stereo to be played on FM radio as a commercial.

He rang me in a panic one day saying the FM station had rejected his tape, claiming is was "out of phase". So I went to the studio, checked his set up and listened to the tape on headphones. When switched to mono it sounded fine, so was not out of phase.

I then rang the FM station and eventually go onto the guy who had condemned the tape. He explained that his stereo modulation monitor showed the tape was OOP.

When pressed for more detail he grudgingly went on to say that the L channel meter regularly a read higher than the sum meter and this meant it was OOP.

The problem was simple: my customer has panned the bass guitar hard left in the mix, the piano hard right and drums in the centre.

He re-mixed the tape with bass in the CENTRE and it got played on air.



..... Phil

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Richard
Robinson wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) said:


Very surprising the numbers who claim to never watch TV. ;-)

Not me. Going on the last 20 years' average (ono), I expect to watch it
for about an hour a year, while visiting friends who are into it. I have
seen Big Brother, $Somewhere's Got Talent, Springwatch ... More than
"never", anyway.

Seems a pity to have never been able to watch The Proms, or items like the
performance of operas like The Barber of Seville, or ballets like Sleeping
Beauty. (The latter items, along with the Vienna New Year Concert, all
available in the last few weeks from the BBC.)

It's true that the sound quality doesn't always match the 320k aac from
Radio 3 via iPlayer. But the 50fps video you can get (if you do it in time)
of such things seems pretty enjoyable to me.

All that said, yes, listening to sound-only can be very enjoyable. Depends
what kind of experience you fancy. Having the choice seems good to me.

Personally, I think my 50p a day is well spent just to get such things.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
As there wasn't such a demand for such a device in my particular
field as there obviously was in yours.

Did you have close co-operation with BBC Radio?

Given I worked for ITV, unlikely.

You have mentioned being at Thames for a short
time.

I was staff at Thames for longer than staff at the BBC. I've no idea where
you got the idea this was a 'short time'.

In another current thread you talk about your
knowledge of what was being made by BBC TV
when you were there. So my assumption that you
had contacts at BH was natural.

You have rather obviously no conception of the size of the BBC. ;-)

We went to BH several times to discuss ideas.
They had a number of cryptically-numbered black
boxes which they demonstrated to us, and some very
clever people. They could have easily done it for you.

Are you saying BBC radio regularly produced 'stereo' from mono? I'd be
surprised.

Please read again.
Like many others BBC Radio were experimenting
to see what could be done in the field of mono to
stereo conversion. As a result of our meetings at
BH a colleague and I were invited by Desmond Briscoe
to visit the BBC Radiophonic Workshop at Maida Vale.
He was surprised to meet people from outside the Beeb
who had both a technical and musical background (like himself)
and who were familiar with the wonderful ARP 2500 synthesizer.

Ah. Right. You mentioned Broadcasting House only, inferring it was
something in regular use. A standard production tool.

The Radiophonic Workshop could well have made use of all sorts of weird
and wonderful devices. That was what they did.

--
*Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder...

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Have you never lived in the UK, Iain, and bought a TV licence?

Yes for many years.

If so, you'd know it was still as good value as ever.

Well, as it works out at 50p a day
I have to agree:-)

I'd happily pay that just for R4.

--
*7up is good for you, signed snow white*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

Jim Lesurf said:
In article , Richard
Robinson wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) said:

Very surprising the numbers who claim to never watch TV. ;-)

Not me. Going on the last 20 years' average (ono), I expect to watch it
for about an hour a year, while visiting friends who are into it. I have
seen Big Brother, $Somewhere's Got Talent, Springwatch ... More than
"never", anyway.

Seems a pity to have never been able to watch The Proms, or items like the
performance of operas like The Barber of Seville, or ballets like Sleeping
Beauty. (The latter items, along with the Vienna New Year Concert, all
available in the last few weeks from the BBC.)

It's true that the sound quality doesn't always match the 320k aac from
Radio 3 via iPlayer. But the 50fps video you can get (if you do it in
time) of such things seems pretty enjoyable to me.

That doesn't bother me much. High quality is to be had when possible, but if
it's a cruddy recording of worthwhile music, I'll listen and enjoy.

All that said, yes, listening to sound-only can be very enjoyable. Depends
what kind of experience you fancy. Having the choice seems good to me.

Sound-only, yes. If I go to a live performance it's "I love work, I can
watch people doing it for hours", but it's not often I find the visuals
important (is this maybe age-related ? I started listening to music before
the pop video became a Thing).

Or maybe it's just me, I don't really Do videos or films much, either.

Personally, I think my 50p a day is well spent just to get such things.

Plus, in my case, the once-off cost of buying the equipment.

Yes, I'm aware I'm missing things I'd probably like. But the same is true of
many other possibilities. I just don't know how people find the time for it
....

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Richard
Robinson wrote:
It's true that the sound quality doesn't always match the 320k aac
from Radio 3 via iPlayer. But the 50fps video you can get (if you do
it in time) of such things seems pretty enjoyable to me.

That doesn't bother me much. High quality is to be had when possible,
but if it's a cruddy recording of worthwhile music, I'll listen and
enjoy.

cf below.

All that said, yes, listening to sound-only can be very enjoyable.
Depends what kind of experience you fancy. Having the choice seems
good to me.

Sound-only, yes. If I go to a live performance it's "I love work, I can
watch people doing it for hours", but it's not often I find the visuals
important (is this maybe age-related ? I started listening to music
before the pop video became a Thing).

The visuals can be useful for an opera or ballet. I confess I generally had
little interest in either *until* I could watch them in decent quality as
well as having the sound in decent quality. To me, that made a significant
difference even though I prefer closing my eyes when listening to other
kinds of music which have no specified relationship to anything that it
accompanies.

I stopped buying DVDs of classical music when they all went to 'NTSC' which
looks much poorer than even 'PAL' ( both labels being misleading, but they
are the terms used on the DVDs.) Blue Rays or HD recordings (or see below)
can be rather better.


Or maybe it's just me, I don't really Do videos or films much, either.

I'm happy watching old films. Even if the sound quality is poor. Content is
what really matters.


Personally, I think my 50p a day is well spent just to get such things.

Plus, in my case, the once-off cost of buying the equipment.

get_iplayer is your friend. If you have a computer with a decent display
you can get a lot of what the BBC broadcast in quite decent vision and
sound. For some years now, that has been my main route for BBC TV and Radio
3.

We do use a TV set as a display in the living room to watch AV. But nothing
fancy. However the bulk of what we watch is now fetched using get_iplayer.

That said, the 'real' hi-fi is in another room with no large screen. Just a
small monitor out of the line of vision when listening to audio.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

Huge said:
On 2017-01-22, Jim Lesurf wrote:

Content is what really matters.

Precisely. Unless the reproduction is so poor that it is distracting.

If it's an LP I've known for a long time, I can find a missing scratch
distracting :-)


--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

Jim Lesurf said:
In article ,
Richard Robinson wrote:

Sound-only, yes. If I go to a live performance it's "I love work, I can
watch people doing it for hours", but it's not often I find the visuals
important (is this maybe age-related ? I started listening to music
before the pop video became a Thing).

The visuals can be useful for an opera or ballet. I confess I generally had
little interest in either *until* I could watch them in decent quality as
well as having the sound in decent quality. To me, that made a significant
difference even though I prefer closing my eyes when listening to other
kinds of music which have no specified relationship to anything that it
accompanies.

Content is what really matters.

Hear hear !


Personally, I think my 50p a day is well spent just to get such things.

Plus, in my case, the once-off cost of buying the equipment.

get_iplayer is your friend. If you have a computer with a decent display
you can get a lot of what the BBC broadcast in quite decent vision and
sound. For some years now, that has been my main route for BBC TV and Radio
3.

Well, yes; it's a lack of motivation rather than ability.


--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

On 22/01/2017 17:08, Richard Robinson wrote:
Huge said:
On 2017-01-22, Jim Lesurf wrote:

Content is what really matters.

Precisely. Unless the reproduction is so poor that it is distracting.

If it's an LP I've known for a long time, I can find a missing scratch
distracting :-)


Luxury. From the days of recording radio with the built in mic of a
portable cassette, various domestic 'overdubs' define the original
performance for me still.

--
Cheers, Rob

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...
I once had a customer who owned a small recoding studio ( he was able to
cut disks on an old Ampex lathe too) and he had made a short musical tape
in stereo to be played on FM radio as a commercial.

Did Ampex make a cutting lathe? Perhaps you mean Westrex?

Ampex was set up to market the new technology (analogue tape)
which the German company AEG with their Magnetophon had
shown to be so superior to disc recording.

I have always understood that there were three American
manufacters were, Scully, Westrex and Presto.
There were also firms making portable disc cutters,
the size of gramophones - among them Vitaphone in the
US and Grampian in the UK

In Europe, Neumann and Lyrec were the two major
manufacturers of cutting lathes for professional use.


He rang me in a panic one day saying the FM station had rejected his tape,
claiming is was "out of phase". So I went to the studio, checked his set
up and listened to the tape on headphones. When switched to mono it
sounded fine, so was not out of phase.

I then rang the FM station and eventually go onto the guy who had
condemned the tape. He explained that his stereo modulation monitor showed
the tape was OOP.

When pressed for more detail he grudgingly went on to say that the L
channel meter regularly a read higher than the sum meter and this meant it
was OOP.

The problem was simple: my customer has panned the bass guitar hard left
in the mix, the piano hard right and drums in the centre.

That would have been OK if the modulation level was
not too high. BGtr and Bass Drum (also Floor Tom) would
have been safer in the centre or Bass Phased at the console

He re-mixed the tape with bass in the CENTRE and it got played on air.

The safest and most sensible solution of all:-)

But why supply an acetate when a quarter inch stereo tape
would have been much easier and cheaper?

Many folk groups, (example vox, guitar and string bass)
were recorded with the guitar left, vocal centre
and bass right.

Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

RJH said:
On 22/01/2017 17:08, Richard Robinson wrote:
Huge said:
On 2017-01-22, Jim Lesurf wrote:

Content is what really matters.

Precisely. Unless the reproduction is so poor that it is distracting.

If it's an LP I've known for a long time, I can find a missing scratch
distracting :-)


Luxury. From the days of recording radio with the built in mic of a
portable cassette, various domestic 'overdubs' define the original
performance for me still.

Ah, cassette motor noise. I wouldn't miss that.


--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

Iain Churches wrote:

"Phil Allison"



Did Ampex make a cutting lathe? Perhaps you mean Westrex?


** The lathe was from the 1950s and incorporated a valve amplifier and PSU underneath. It was a *large* machine. My memory tells me it was Ampex, but that could be mistaken.

I was certainly not a major brand like Scully or Neumann.


I have always understood that there were three American
manufacters were, Scully, Westrex and Presto.


** AFAIK Westrex made cutting heads and amplifiers, not complete lathes.




He rang me in a panic one day saying the FM station had rejected his tape,
claiming is was "out of phase". So I went to the studio, checked his set
up and listened to the tape on headphones. When switched to mono it
sounded fine, so was not out of phase.

I then rang the FM station and eventually go onto the guy who had
condemned the tape. He explained that his stereo modulation monitor showed
the tape was OOP.

When pressed for more detail he grudgingly went on to say that the L
channel meter regularly a read higher than the sum meter and this meant it
was OOP.

The problem was simple: my customer has panned the bass guitar hard left
in the mix, the piano hard right and drums in the centre.


He re-mixed the tape with bass in the CENTRE and it got played on air.

The safest and most sensible solution of all:-)


But why supply an acetate when a quarter inch stereo tape
would have been much easier and cheaper?


** My post says he suppled a tape, 1/4 inch two track.

His business was called "DemoDisc" so had to be able to make them.



..... Phil

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...
Iain Churches wrote:

"Phil Allison"



Did Ampex make a cutting lathe? Perhaps you mean Westrex?



** The lathe was from the 1950s and incorporated a valve amplifier and PSU
underneath. It was a *large* machine. My memory tells me it was Ampex,
but that could be mistaken.

I was certainly not a major brand like Scully or Neumann.


I have always understood that there were three American
manufacters were, Scully, Westrex and Presto.


** AFAIK Westrex made cutting heads and amplifiers, not complete lathes.

Westrex supplied cutter head and electronics that were
often fitted to Scully lathes. They also sold complete
systems. The studio where I worked in the UK had
eight lathes, one of them Westrex (used for RCA).

Ampex certainly did not built disc cutting equipment.
They were far too busy with better things:-)


His business was called "DemoDisc" so had to be able to make them.

Good name:-)

Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
You have rather obviously no conception of the size of the BBC. ;-)

Please don't try to tell me there was no co-operation between
departments, because I know that is not correct.

We went to BH several times to discuss ideas.
They had a number of cryptically-numbered black
boxes which they demonstrated to us, and some very
clever people. They could have easily done it for you.

Are you saying BBC radio regularly produced 'stereo' from mono? I'd be
surprised.

Please read again.
Like many others BBC Radio were experimenting
to see what could be done in the field of mono to
stereo conversion. As a result of our meetings at
BH a colleague and I were invited by Desmond Briscoe
to visit the BBC Radiophonic Workshop at Maida Vale.
He was surprised to meet people from outside the Beeb
who had both a technical and musical background (like himself)
and who were familiar with the wonderful ARP 2500 synthesizer.

Ah. Right. You mentioned Broadcasting House only, inferring it was
something in regular use. A standard production tool.

No inference at all.
BH was the place where the meetings were held.

The Radiophonic Workshop could well have made use of all sorts of weird
and wonderful devices. That was what they did.

They were not involved in mono to stereo as far as I know.
My colleague and I kept contact with Mr Briscoe, and
visíted often. They were pleased to talk with people on
the same wavelength, and with the similar skillsets.

Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Ah. Right. You mentioned Broadcasting House only, inferring it was
something in regular use. A standard production tool.

No inference at all.
BH was the place where the meetings were held.

But you suggested I ask for help there?

The Radiophonic Workshop could well have made use of all sorts of weird
and wonderful devices. That was what they did.

They were not involved in mono to stereo as far as I know.

Ah. OK. So why mention it?

My colleague and I kept contact with Mr Briscoe, and
visíted often. They were pleased to talk with people on
the same wavelength, and with the similar skillsets.

Nice to know both he and you had plenty spare time for social interaction.
;-)

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Ah. Right. You mentioned Broadcasting House only, inferring it was
something in regular use. A standard production tool.

No inference at all.
BH was the place where the meetings were held.

But you suggested I ask for help there?

Yes indeed. They had some very knowledgeable
people, who were able to work without the
visual restraints imposed by cameras. (If they needed
a ten foot mic tripod in the centre of the studio, then that's
where it went:-)

The Radiophonic Workshop could well have made use of all sorts of weird
and wonderful devices. That was what they did.

They were not involved in mono to stereo as far as I know.

Ah. OK. So why mention it?

Because it was one of the most interesting departments
of the BBC. Few people from outside, or even from
other departments within the BBC, got the chance to
go there.


They were pleased to talk with people on
the same wavelength, and with the similar skillsets.

Nice to know both he and you had plenty spare time for social interaction.
;-)

I worked 60 hours a week, so not much spare time:-)
Planning and production meetings, and the development
of new ideas, were an important part of each and
every project.

Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Ah. Right. You mentioned Broadcasting House only, inferring it was
something in regular use. A standard production tool.

No inference at all.
BH was the place where the meetings were held.

But you suggested I ask for help there?

Yes indeed. They had some very knowledgeable
people, who were able to work without the
visual restraints imposed by cameras. (If they needed
a ten foot mic tripod in the centre of the studio, then that's
where it went:-)

But not apparently on making decent stereo from mono?

We were much more sophisticated in TV studios. If you wanted a slung mic
or two, there were electrically operated hoists to put them on. And keep
the floor clear for more important things. ;-)

The Radiophonic Workshop could well have made use of all sorts of weird
and wonderful devices. That was what they did.

They were not involved in mono to stereo as far as I know.

Ah. OK. So why mention it?

Because it was one of the most interesting departments
of the BBC. Few people from outside, or even from
other departments within the BBC, got the chance to
go there.

Lots of very interesting departments in the BBC, Iain. Or rather once
were. Did you never visit Kingswood Warren?


They were pleased to talk with people on
the same wavelength, and with the similar skillsets.

Nice to know both he and you had plenty spare time for social interaction.
;-)

I worked 60 hours a week, so not much spare time:-)
Planning and production meetings, and the development
of new ideas, were an important part of each and
every project.

Iain

--
*Is it true that cannibals don't eat clowns because they taste funny?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

He rang me in a panic one day saying the FM station had rejected his
tape,
claiming is was "out of phase". So I went to the studio, checked his set
up and listened to the tape on headphones. When switched to mono it
sounded fine, so was not out of phase.

I then rang the FM station and eventually go onto the guy who had
condemned the tape. He explained that his stereo modulation monitor
showed
the tape was OOP.

When pressed for more detail he grudgingly went on to say that the L
channel meter regularly a read higher than the sum meter and this meant
it
was OOP.

The problem was simple: my customer has panned the bass guitar hard left
in the mix, the piano hard right and drums in the centre.

That would have been OK if the modulation level was
not too high. BGtr and Bass Drum (also Floor Tom) would
have been safer in the centre or Bass Phased at the console

He re-mixed the tape with bass in the CENTRE and it got played on air.

The safest and most sensible solution of all:-)

Many folk groups, (example vox, guitar and string bass)
were recorded with the guitar left, vocal centre
and bass right.



Your post got me thinking, Phil
As I mentioned above, many folk recordings in the
60s were made with vocal centre, bass right and
guitar left.

So I decided to put together a rhythm track, Piano,
BsGtr, and Drums like the one you mentioned.

Here it is with the BGtr panned left, Drs centre
(except for overheads which I left split) and piano
right.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...st/BgGtr01.mp3

Here is the same track with BGtr centre, Drs left
and piano right.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...est/BGtr02.mp3

Phase analysis segment 1
http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...GtrPhase01.jpg

Phase analysis segment 2
http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...GtrPhase02.jpg

Version2 is certainly a lot safer
But nevertheless, I like the bass on the left:-)
I can understand why you friend was asked to remix it:

Iain

PS Anyone know the tune to this rhythm track?

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
BH was the place where the meetings were held.

But you suggested I ask for help there?

Yes indeed. They had some very knowledgeable
people, who were able to work without the
visual restraints imposed by cameras. (If they needed
a ten foot mic tripod in the centre of the studio, then that's
where it went:-)

But not apparently on making decent stereo from mono?

Yes. They had some interesting ideas. No-one was
labouring under the miscoception that stereo could be made
from mono. We talked about the stereo illusion.

I ask again, did you listen to my demo?
http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...StereoDemo.mp3

Your comments would be of interest.

We were much more sophisticated in TV studios. If you wanted a slung mic
or two, there were electrically operated hoists to put them on. And keep
the floor clear for more important things. ;-)

Or stick the mic on with a lump of BlueTak :-)))

Lots of very interesting departments in the BBC, Iain. Or rather once
were. Did you never visit Kingswood Warren?

Yes. A friend of our family was a senior project engineer
there. It was he who suggested to me a career at the BBC.
It's probably long closed?

Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
But not apparently on making decent stereo from mono?

Yes. They had some interesting ideas. No-one was
labouring under the miscoception that stereo could be made
from mono. We talked about the stereo illusion.

Thought I made by point earlier. You can't make good stereo from mono.
Any more than you can change lead into gold. But that has never stopped
people trying.

I ask again, did you listen to my demo?
http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...StereoDemo.mp3

Your comments would be of interest.

Heh heh. Think what you actually mean is you want comments that you can
attempt to score points from. ;-)

We were much more sophisticated in TV studios. If you wanted a slung
mic or two, there were electrically operated hoists to put them on.
And keep the floor clear for more important things. ;-)

Or stick the mic on with a lump of BlueTak :-)))

You would rely on BlueTak to hold up an expensive slung mic, Iain? I'm
afraid most of us in TV have more respect for the tools of our trade. And
the health and safety of those around us.

But it is good you are keeping up with the current trend for 'fake
news'...

Lots of very interesting departments in the BBC, Iain. Or rather once
were. Did you never visit Kingswood Warren?

Yes. A friend of our family was a senior project engineer
there. It was he who suggested to me a career at the BBC.

So what went wrong?

It's probably long closed?

Indeed.

--
*Sticks and stones may break my bones but whips and chains excite me*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
But not apparently on making decent stereo from mono?

Yes. They had some interesting ideas. No-one was
labouring under the miscoception that stereo could be made
from mono. We talked about the stereo illusion.

Thought I made by point earlier. You can't make good stereo from mono.
Any more than you can change lead into gold. But that has never stopped
people trying.

I ask again, did you listen to my demo?
http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...StereoDemo.mp3

Your comments would be of interest.

Heh heh. Think what you actually mean is you want comments that you can
attempt to score points from. :-)

As a former broadcast professional could their
be any doubt as to the validity of your comments?.

I remember it was Keith G who pointed out that "Plowie"
(as he used to call you) could never listened to any
snippets posted. And when Keith was here, there were
some very interesting snippets:-)))

You would rely on BlueTak to hold up an expensive slung mic, Iain? I'm
afraid most of us in TV have more respect for the tools of our trade. And
the health and safety of those around us.

Blue Tak seems to have been a standard mounting
accessory exclusive to TV music shows. Nowhere else.
String players talked about it often, and aparently told
TV sound assistants "not to stick that muck on my
instrument" So did their violins remain without a
mic? "Call, the sound supervisor!. This clown has
stuck a lump of goo onto my £250,000 Amati"

Lots of very interesting departments in the BBC, Iain. Or rather once
were. Did you never visit Kingswood Warren?

Yes. A friend of our family was a senior project engineer
there. It was he who suggested to me a career at the BBC.

So what went wrong?

Nothing. In terms of training, job prospects, advancement
oportunities, salary, and level of interest, broadcasting
sadly, came right at the bottom of the table.

Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

On 24/01/2017 17:05, Iain Churches wrote:
Blue Tak seems to have been a standard mounting
accessory exclusive to TV music shows. Nowhere else.
String players talked about it often, and aparently told
TV sound assistants "not to stick that muck on my
instrument" So did their violins remain without a
mic? "Call, the sound supervisor!. This clown has
stuck a lump of goo onto my £250,000 Amati"

After 40 plus years in broadcasting, admittedly as a cameraman, I can't
recall ever seeing bluetak being used to attach microphones to anything,
never mind musical instruments.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 24/01/2017 17:05, Iain Churches wrote:
Blue Tak seems to have been a standard mounting
accessory exclusive to TV music shows. Nowhere else.
String players talked about it often, and aparently told
TV sound assistants "not to stick that muck on my
instrument" So did their violins remain without a
mic? "Call, the sound supervisor!. This clown has
stuck a lump of goo onto my £250,000 Amati"

After 40 plus years in broadcasting, admittedly as a cameraman, I can't
recall ever seeing bluetak being used to attach microphones to anything,
never mind musical instruments.


Musicians have a very special humour.
String players used to say. "I've been at
the TV centre all day. It's nice to come
to a studio where they have proper mic stands"
Everyone knew what they meant!

Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

On 24/01/2017 18:42, Iain Churches wrote:
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 24/01/2017 17:05, Iain Churches wrote:
Blue Tak seems to have been a standard mounting
accessory exclusive to TV music shows. Nowhere else.
String players talked about it often, and aparently told
TV sound assistants "not to stick that muck on my
instrument" So did their violins remain without a
mic? "Call, the sound supervisor!. This clown has
stuck a lump of goo onto my £250,000 Amati"

After 40 plus years in broadcasting, admittedly as a cameraman, I can't
recall ever seeing bluetak being used to attach microphones to anything,
never mind musical instruments.


Musicians have a very special humour.
String players used to say. "I've been at
the TV centre all day. It's nice to come
to a studio where they have proper mic stands"
Everyone knew what they meant!


Regrettably everyone doesn't include me.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 24/01/2017 18:42, Iain Churches wrote:
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 24/01/2017 17:05, Iain Churches wrote:
Blue Tak seems to have been a standard mounting
accessory exclusive to TV music shows. Nowhere else.
String players talked about it often, and aparently told
TV sound assistants "not to stick that muck on my
instrument" So did their violins remain without a
mic? "Call, the sound supervisor!. This clown has
stuck a lump of goo onto my £250,000 Amati"

After 40 plus years in broadcasting, admittedly as a cameraman, I can't
recall ever seeing bluetak being used to attach microphones to anything,
never mind musical instruments.


Musicians have a very special humour.
String players used to say. "I've been at
the TV centre all day. It's nice to come
to a studio where they have proper mic stands"
Everyone knew what they meant!


Regrettably everyone doesn't include me.

Musicians were quite disgruntled.
Classsical sessions were it seems OK, but some
players did not want to play on light music TV
sessions.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/schertler_...phone_367883_2

Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

On 24/01/2017 19:28, Iain Churches wrote:
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 24/01/2017 18:42, Iain Churches wrote:
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 24/01/2017 17:05, Iain Churches wrote:
Blue Tak seems to have been a standard mounting
accessory exclusive to TV music shows. Nowhere else.
String players talked about it often, and aparently told
TV sound assistants "not to stick that muck on my
instrument" So did their violins remain without a
mic? "Call, the sound supervisor!. This clown has
stuck a lump of goo onto my £250,000 Amati"

After 40 plus years in broadcasting, admittedly as a cameraman, I can't
recall ever seeing bluetak being used to attach microphones to anything,
never mind musical instruments.


Musicians have a very special humour.
String players used to say. "I've been at
the TV centre all day. It's nice to come
to a studio where they have proper mic stands"
Everyone knew what they meant!


Regrettably everyone doesn't include me.

Musicians were quite disgruntled.
Classsical sessions were it seems OK, but some
players did not want to play on light music TV
sessions.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/schertler_...phone_367883_2


Obviously long after my time :-)

I remember as a very junior erk rigging, IIRC, C28s on stands for
violins for things like Top of the Pops. Usually one mic between a pair
of instruments.


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 24/01/2017 19:28, Iain Churches wrote:
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 24/01/2017 18:42, Iain Churches wrote:
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 24/01/2017 17:05, Iain Churches wrote:
Blue Tak seems to have been a standard mounting
accessory exclusive to TV music shows. Nowhere else.
String players talked about it often, and aparently told
TV sound assistants "not to stick that muck on my
instrument" So did their violins remain without a
mic? "Call, the sound supervisor!. This clown has
stuck a lump of goo onto my £250,000 Amati"

After 40 plus years in broadcasting, admittedly as a cameraman, I
can't
recall ever seeing bluetak being used to attach microphones to
anything,
never mind musical instruments.


Musicians have a very special humour.
String players used to say. "I've been at
the TV centre all day. It's nice to come
to a studio where they have proper mic stands"
Everyone knew what they meant!


Regrettably everyone doesn't include me.

Musicians were quite disgruntled.
Classsical sessions were it seems OK, but some
players did not want to play on light music TV
sessions.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/schertler_...phone_367883_2


Obviously long after my time :-)

I remember as a very junior erk rigging, IIRC, C28s on stands for violins
for things like Top of the Pops. Usually one mic between a pair of
instruments.

Yes. It seems that the directors and camera crews
complained about the size of the mics, even pencils like
the C28. Preferred string mics such as the 87 or
49 are much larger. It may have been to do with
just their physical size, or because they caused
lens flare. Mics with matt black bodies were not
so common then.

The "stick-ons" were a topic of conversation
for quite a while. I am told that the practice
came to an end when the orchestral contactor
took it up with the MU.

Halcyon days:-)

Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Heh heh. Think what you actually mean is you want comments that you can
attempt to score points from. :-)

As a former broadcast professional could their
be any doubt as to the validity of your comments?.

With you, yes.

I remember it was Keith G who pointed out that "Plowie"
(as he used to call you) could never listened to any
snippets posted. And when Keith was here, there were
some very interesting snippets:-)))

Your interests are different to mine.

You would rely on BlueTak to hold up an expensive slung mic, Iain? I'm
afraid most of us in TV have more respect for the tools of our trade. And
the health and safety of those around us.

Blue Tak seems to have been a standard mounting
accessory exclusive to TV music shows. Nowhere else.
String players talked about it often, and aparently told
TV sound assistants "not to stick that muck on my
instrument" So did their violins remain without a
mic? "Call, the sound supervisor!. This clown has
stuck a lump of goo onto my £250,000 Amati"

Back to that again, eh? All I can truly say is I've never seen it used,
and certainly wouldn't want to use it either.

Could you give some details of actual shows where it was used and
preferably the name of the sound supervisor?

In my day, the standard way (after consultation with the musicians
involved) was custom made soft jawed crock clips used on the bridge. And
the musician - not the sound assistant - would fit it to their instrument.
Anything else would be an nonsense.

Lots of very interesting departments in the BBC, Iain. Or rather once
were. Did you never visit Kingswood Warren?

Yes. A friend of our family was a senior project engineer
there. It was he who suggested to me a career at the BBC.

So what went wrong?

Nothing. In terms of training, job prospects, advancement
oportunities, salary, and level of interest, broadcasting
sadly, came right at the bottom of the table.

Good. It's just that your continual criticism of what you think are
broadcast practices did make me wonder if it was sour grapes. Especially
since you seem to be so ill informed about them.

--
*You can't have everything, where would you put it?*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 24/01/2017 17:05, Iain Churches wrote:
Blue Tak seems to have been a standard mounting
accessory exclusive to TV music shows. Nowhere else.
String players talked about it often, and aparently told
TV sound assistants "not to stick that muck on my
instrument" So did their violins remain without a
mic? "Call, the sound supervisor!. This clown has
stuck a lump of goo onto my £250,000 Amati"

After 40 plus years in broadcasting, admittedly as a cameraman, I can't
recall ever seeing bluetak being used to attach microphones to anything,
never mind musical instruments.

Me neither.

I have heard of it being used to help stop rustle from clothes on an actor
wearing a concealed radio mic. Much to the dislike of costume department,
I might add. But not something I've personally seen or used.

-

--
*You're never too old to learn something stupid.
Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
After 40 plus years in broadcasting, admittedly as a cameraman, I
can't recall ever seeing bluetak being used to attach microphones to
anything, never mind musical instruments.


Musicians have a very special humour.
String players used to say. "I've been at
the TV centre all day. It's nice to come
to a studio where they have proper mic stands"
Everyone knew what they meant!

You are so right Iain. A nice lazy arm per violin would look oh so perfect
for TV. Plenty of space to them too.

Just as well you never did get to work in TV.

--
*A cartoonist was found dead in his home. Details are sketchy.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Musicians have a very special humour.
String players used to say. "I've been at
the TV centre all day. It's nice to come
to a studio where they have proper mic stands"
Everyone knew what they meant!


Regrettably everyone doesn't include me.

Musicians were quite disgruntled.
Classsical sessions were it seems OK, but some
players did not want to play on light music TV
sessions.

And exactly who is forcing them to?

https://www.thomann.de/gb/schertler_...phone_367883_2

It that what you use as a violin mic, Iain?

--
*Never miss a good chance to shut up.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Graeme Wall wrote:
I remember as a very junior erk rigging, IIRC, C28s on stands for
violins for things like Top of the Pops. Usually one mic between a pair
of instruments.

Big snag with a pop orch in TV is that to actually have a chance of
hearing the fiddles above the rest is they have to be very tight mic'd.

Since you mention TOTP, the wonderful Dick Chamberlain was one of the
first to use personal mics for this - in those days BK6, worn round the
neck by the fiddle players. When the much smaller (and higher quality) ECM
50 arrived, it became possible to mount those on the instrument itself.

I'd also point out that the first time I actually saw this used was not
TV, but the string section of the James Last band on stage.

I'm really quite amazed one with the experience of Iain can't comprehend
and understand the problems of balancing a small string section as part of
a rock band in a 'live' environment.

--
*When a clock is hungry it goes back four seconds*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
The "stick-ons" were a topic of conversation
for quite a while. I am told that the practice
came to an end when the orchestral contactor
took it up with the MU.

Ah - right. You made it sound like the norm and current practice. Was that
your intention?

--
*A dog's not just for Christmas, it's alright on a Friday night too*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.