Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

On 25/01/2017 14:16, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Graeme Wall wrote:
I remember as a very junior erk rigging, IIRC, C28s on stands for
violins for things like Top of the Pops. Usually one mic between a pair
of instruments.

Big snag with a pop orch in TV is that to actually have a chance of
hearing the fiddles above the rest is they have to be very tight mic'd.

Since you mention TOTP, the wonderful Dick Chamberlain was one of the
first to use personal mics for this - in those days BK6, worn round the
neck by the fiddle players. When the much smaller (and higher quality) ECM
50 arrived, it became possible to mount those on the instrument itself.

Microphones on ToTP? For the presenter and the applause only!

--
Eiron.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

On 25/01/2017 13:41, Iain Churches wrote:
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 24/01/2017 19:28, Iain Churches wrote:
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 24/01/2017 18:42, Iain Churches wrote:
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 24/01/2017 17:05, Iain Churches wrote:
Blue Tak seems to have been a standard mounting
accessory exclusive to TV music shows. Nowhere else.
String players talked about it often, and aparently told
TV sound assistants "not to stick that muck on my
instrument" So did their violins remain without a
mic? "Call, the sound supervisor!. This clown has
stuck a lump of goo onto my £250,000 Amati"

After 40 plus years in broadcasting, admittedly as a cameraman, I
can't
recall ever seeing bluetak being used to attach microphones to
anything,
never mind musical instruments.


Musicians have a very special humour.
String players used to say. "I've been at
the TV centre all day. It's nice to come
to a studio where they have proper mic stands"
Everyone knew what they meant!


Regrettably everyone doesn't include me.

Musicians were quite disgruntled.
Classsical sessions were it seems OK, but some
players did not want to play on light music TV
sessions.

https://www.thomann.de/gb/schertler_...phone_367883_2


Obviously long after my time :-)

I remember as a very junior erk rigging, IIRC, C28s on stands for violins
for things like Top of the Pops. Usually one mic between a pair of
instruments.

Yes. It seems that the directors and camera crews

Camera crews don't get consulted about such things! (he said with feeling)

complained about the size of the mics, even pencils like
the C28. Preferred string mics such as the 87 or
49 are much larger. It may have been to do with
just their physical size, or because they caused
lens flare. Mics with matt black bodies were not
so common then.

D202 comes to mind.


The "stick-ons" were a topic of conversation
for quite a while. I am told that the practice
came to an end when the orchestral contactor
took it up with the MU.

Halcyon days:-)

Iain





--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Eiron wrote:
On 25/01/2017 14:16, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Graeme Wall wrote:
I remember as a very junior erk rigging, IIRC, C28s on stands for
violins for things like Top of the Pops. Usually one mic between a
pair of instruments.

Big snag with a pop orch in TV is that to actually have a chance of
hearing the fiddles above the rest is they have to be very tight mic'd.

Since you mention TOTP, the wonderful Dick Chamberlain was one of the
first to use personal mics for this - in those days BK6, worn round
the neck by the fiddle players. When the much smaller (and higher
quality) ECM 50 arrived, it became possible to mount those on the
instrument itself.

Microphones on ToTP? For the presenter and the applause only!

Heh heh.

It went from miming to records, to totally live performance, then on to
backing tracks with live singists and back to miming. ;-) All in the few
years I worked on it. Long before it moved to Elstree.

Of course very few pop records these days could be performed 'live' anyway.

--
*Forget the Joneses, I keep us up with the Simpsons.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

On 25/01/2017 14:45, Eiron wrote:
On 25/01/2017 14:16, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Graeme Wall wrote:
I remember as a very junior erk rigging, IIRC, C28s on stands for
violins for things like Top of the Pops. Usually one mic between a pair
of instruments.

Big snag with a pop orch in TV is that to actually have a chance of
hearing the fiddles above the rest is they have to be very tight mic'd.

Since you mention TOTP, the wonderful Dick Chamberlain was one of the
first to use personal mics for this - in those days BK6, worn round the
neck by the fiddle players. When the much smaller (and higher quality)
ECM
50 arrived, it became possible to mount those on the instrument itself.

Microphones on ToTP? For the presenter and the applause only!


How wrong you are. The TOTP mic rig. was was quite a work up and
involved about eight different types of mic. Admittedly in the late 60s
early 70s, I went on to cameras then after hitting Magnus Magnussen over
the head with a 4038 on the boom.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

On Wed, 25 Jan 2017 15:28:02 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

On 25/01/2017 14:45, Eiron wrote:
On 25/01/2017 14:16, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Graeme Wall wrote:
I remember as a very junior erk rigging, IIRC, C28s on stands for
violins for things like Top of the Pops. Usually one mic between a pair
of instruments.

Big snag with a pop orch in TV is that to actually have a chance of
hearing the fiddles above the rest is they have to be very tight mic'd.

Since you mention TOTP, the wonderful Dick Chamberlain was one of the
first to use personal mics for this - in those days BK6, worn round the
neck by the fiddle players. When the much smaller (and higher quality)
ECM
50 arrived, it became possible to mount those on the instrument itself.

Microphones on ToTP? For the presenter and the applause only!


How wrong you are. The TOTP mic rig. was was quite a work up and
involved about eight different types of mic. Admittedly in the late 60s
early 70s, I went on to cameras then after hitting Magnus Magnussen over
the head with a 4038 on the boom.

Boom ops always get it in the neck. I remember one who got fired cos
he attached a piece of holly to the end for a Christmas recording.

d

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...

I went on to cameras then after hitting Magnus Magnussen over the head
with a 4038 on the boom.

It's supposed to go the other way.
Camera crew are demoted to sound.
And sound crew to drivers:-))


Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Graeme Wall wrote:
Microphones on ToTP? For the presenter and the applause only!


How wrong you are. The TOTP mic rig. was was quite a work up and
involved about eight different types of mic. Admittedly in the late 60s
early 70s, I went on to cameras then after hitting Magnus Magnussen over
the head with a 4038 on the boom.

Or a 4033, even. ;-)

I enjoyed my stint on cameras. Remember vividly swinging Frank Wilkins on
a Mole on TW3. Bloody hard work for the closing shot.

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

It went from miming to records, to totally live performance, then on to
backing tracks with live singists and back to miming. ;-) All in the few
years I worked on it.

What was your role on TOTP ?

Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Big snag with a pop orch in TV is that to actually have a chance of
hearing the fiddles above the rest is they have to be very tight mic'd.

Why do you call them fiddles?. They are violins.

A violin needs air. "Tight" mics (your term) sound awful
on strings They need air and lots of it. You would have been
better off with a Mellotron:-)

Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

On 25/01/2017 16:58, Iain Churches wrote:
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...

I went on to cameras then after hitting Magnus Magnussen over the head
with a 4038 on the boom.

It's supposed to go the other way.
Camera crew are demoted to sound.
And sound crew to drivers:-))


I was always a rebel :-)



--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

On 25/01/2017 17:03, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Graeme Wall wrote:
Microphones on ToTP? For the presenter and the applause only!


How wrong you are. The TOTP mic rig. was was quite a work up and
involved about eight different types of mic. Admittedly in the late 60s
early 70s, I went on to cameras then after hitting Magnus Magnussen over
the head with a 4038 on the boom.

Or a 4033, even. ;-)

Doh!


I enjoyed my stint on cameras. Remember vividly swinging Frank Wilkins on
a Mole on TW3. Bloody hard work for the closing shot.


I spent two enjoyable years on Crew 2.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

It went from miming to records, to totally live performance, then on
to backing tracks with live singists and back to miming. ;-) All in
the few years I worked on it.

What was your role on TOTP ?

Why do you ask, Iain?

--
*If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Big snag with a pop orch in TV is that to actually have a chance of
hearing the fiddles above the rest is they have to be very tight mic'd.

Why do you call them fiddles?. They are violins.

Do **** off, there's a good boy.

A violin needs air. "Tight" mics (your term) sound awful
on strings They need air and lots of it. You would have been
better off with a Mellotron:-)

Good to confirm what I suspected all along. You ain't got a clue.

--
*If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

It went from miming to records, to totally live performance, then on
to backing tracks with live singists and back to miming. ;-) All in
the few years I worked on it.

What was your role on TOTP ?

Why do you ask, Iain?

Please answer the question.

Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 25/01/2017 16:58, Iain Churches wrote:
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...

I went on to cameras then after hitting Magnus Magnussen over the head
with a 4038 on the boom.

It's supposed to go the other way.
Camera crew are demoted to sound.
And sound crew to drivers:-))


I was always a rebel :-)

Good for you:-)
I know of another rebel, a driver who
was banned for six months, and became a
boom operator pro tem.

Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Big snag with a pop orch in TV is that to actually have a chance of
hearing the fiddles above the rest is they have to be very tight mic'd.

Why do you call them fiddles?. They are violins.

Do **** off, there's a good boy.

Your coarse manner does you no favours.
Look up "fiddle" in Groves.

Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

It went from miming to records, to totally live performance, then on
to backing tracks with live singists and back to miming. ;-) All in
the few years I worked on it.

What was your role on TOTP ?

Why do you ask, Iain?

Please answer the question.

Likewise.

All along your main object seems to have been to take the **** out of the
BBC in various ways.

Go and troll somewhere else.

--
*You're never too old to learn something stupid.
Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Big snag with a pop orch in TV is that to actually have a chance of
hearing the fiddles above the rest is they have to be very tight mic'd.

Why do you call them fiddles?. They are violins.

Do **** off, there's a good boy.

Your coarse manner does you no favours.
Look up "fiddle" in Groves.

Collins GEM English Dictionary
fiddle n. violin

Very odd you want 'respect' shown to fiddle players regardless, but are
happy to slag off every other trade. Are you a frustrated fiddle player?

--
*Why do the two "sanction"s (noun and verb) mean opposites?*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

On 26/01/2017 10:55, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Big snag with a pop orch in TV is that to actually have a chance of
hearing the fiddles above the rest is they have to be very tight mic'd.

Why do you call them fiddles?. They are violins.

Do **** off, there's a good boy.

Your coarse manner does you no favours.
Look up "fiddle" in Groves.

Collins GEM English Dictionary
fiddle n. violin

Very odd you want 'respect' shown to fiddle players regardless, but are
happy to slag off every other trade. Are you a frustrated fiddle player?

The OED says "Now only in familiar or contemptuous use".

--
Eiron.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

Eiron wrote:



Very odd you want 'respect' shown to fiddle players regardless, but are
happy to slag off every other trade. Are you a frustrated fiddle player?

The OED says "Now only in familiar or contemptuous use".



** You can blame Nero for that !!



...... Phil

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Eiron wrote:
Very odd you want 'respect' shown to fiddle players regardless, but
are happy to slag off every other trade. Are you a frustrated fiddle
player?

The OED says "Now only in familiar or contemptuous use".

It's what a pro musician friend of mine calls his. ;-)

But then he is without an inch of pretension.

--
wife.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

Dave Plowman (News) said:
In article ,
Eiron wrote:
Very odd you want 'respect' shown to fiddle players regardless, but
are happy to slag off every other trade. Are you a frustrated fiddle
player?

The OED says "Now only in familiar or contemptuous use".

It's what a pro musician friend of mine calls his. ;-)

But then he is without an inch of pretension.

As a tune-playing "folky", if I heard a fiddle-player talk about a 'violin'
I'd wonder if they'd lost their way to an orchestra. Likewise, (a small
random selection of) the CD sleeves from highly respected professional
players decribe their instrument as 'fiddle'. Maybe that counts as
"familiar" ? It's certainly not contemptuous.

Context is all.


--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Eiron
wrote:
Very odd you want 'respect' shown to fiddle players regardless, but
are happy to slag off every other trade. Are you a frustrated fiddle
player?

The OED says "Now only in familiar or contemptuous use".

It's what a pro musician friend of mine calls his. ;-)

By co-incidence I was at a (social) meeting yesterday where one of the
people was a viola/violin player and teacher we know and someone else was a
Gaelic speaker from Harris. One of the questions he raised was wrt what was
the 'difference' (if any) between a Violin and a Fiddle. This was in the
context of it being called a 'fiddle' in terms of Scots/Gaelic
folk/traditional music but a 'violin' for classical. Certainly not a
'contemptuous' term for the traditional players, etc. So 'familiar' may
cover it.

The view was that there wasn't necessarily any specific inherent difference
required between the instruments to which the terms were applied. But there
could be in terms of the way it was played or perhaps 'set up'.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

Jim Lesurf said:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Eiron
wrote:
Very odd you want 'respect' shown to fiddle players regardless, but
are happy to slag off every other trade. Are you a frustrated fiddle
player?

The OED says "Now only in familiar or contemptuous use".

It's what a pro musician friend of mine calls his. ;-)

By co-incidence I was at a (social) meeting yesterday where one of the
people was a viola/violin player and teacher we know and someone else was a
Gaelic speaker from Harris. One of the questions he raised was wrt what was
the 'difference' (if any) between a Violin and a Fiddle. This was in the
context of it being called a 'fiddle' in terms of Scots/Gaelic
folk/traditional music but a 'violin' for classical. Certainly not a
'contemptuous' term for the traditional players, etc. So 'familiar' may
cover it.

Snap !

The view was that there wasn't necessarily any specific inherent difference
required between the instruments to which the terms were applied. But there
could be in terms of the way it was played or perhaps 'set up'.

It's not my instrument, I'm a clarinettist, so I can't say for sure, but
some of the people I meet in 'traditional' contexts also play in orchestras,
and I don't think I've ever heard any mention of needing separate
instruments. Given the cost of a good one, I'd be suprised.

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Eiron
wrote:
Very odd you want 'respect' shown to fiddle players regardless, but
are happy to slag off every other trade. Are you a frustrated fiddle
player?

The OED says "Now only in familiar or contemptuous use".

It's what a pro musician friend of mine calls his. ;-)

By co-incidence I was at a (social) meeting yesterday where one of the
people was a viola/violin player and teacher we know and someone else was
a
Gaelic speaker from Harris. One of the questions he raised was wrt what
was
the 'difference' (if any) between a Violin and a Fiddle. This was in the
context of it being called a 'fiddle' in terms of Scots/Gaelic
folk/traditional music but a 'violin' for classical. Certainly not a
'contemptuous' term for the traditional players, etc. So 'familiar' may
cover it.

The view was that there wasn't necessarily any specific inherent
difference
required between the instruments to which the terms were applied. But
there
could be in terms of the way it was played or perhaps 'set up'.


It's all in the bridge, Jim

Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Big snag with a pop orch in TV is that to actually have a chance of
hearing the fiddles above the rest is they have to be very tight
mic'd.

Why do you call them fiddles?. They are violins.

Do **** off, there's a good boy.

Your coarse manner does you no favours.
Look up "fiddle" in Groves.

Collins GEM English Dictionary
fiddle n. violin

That's general useage. Groves, which is the
acknowledged specialist musical dictionary,
states clearly the physical different between
violin and fiddle. The latter has a lower bridge
to facilitate double stopping, which violinists
seldom use (except in the Sibelius violin concerto:-)

Very odd you want 'respect' shown to fiddle players regardless, but are
happy to slag off every other trade. Are you a frustrated fiddle player?

I show respect to all musicians, and everyone else who earns it.
I never call them "musos" as I have seen you do. Neither do
I call string players "gipsies", as I have seen you do.

We were taught when speaking to a classical conductor to
call him/her "maestro" and refer to the principal violin as
concertmaster, leader or first-chair.

Observing orchestral etiquette always stands one in good stead.

Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

It went from miming to records, to totally live performance, then on
to backing tracks with live singists and back to miming. ;-) All in
the few years I worked on it.

What was your role on TOTP ?

Why do you ask, Iain?

Please answer the question.


Perhaps you were "mistaken"?

It was a good programme. One would have
thought that anyone who had been a part in making
it would have been proud of doing so:-)


All along your main object seems to have been to take the **** out of the
BBC in various ways.

Incorrect. I fill my posts with links, pics, examples to support
what I write. The Studer/Neve discussion in which I lost
count of the number of times you shot yourself in the foot,
is a good example. Still I remained polite. It was so simple
for me: I turned the gain control down to 0dB and connect
an XLR-M with 1kHz at 0.775V and up it came.
It was far more difficult for you, without experience of either
console, trying hard to contradict anything I wrote. I
understand, but cannot sympathise with your difficulty:-)

I have no wish or need to demean the BBC, which I hold
in the greatest respect. There news coverage on BBC World
is second to none. The programmes on BBC Earth are
excellent. I was watching "War and Peace" last nigh
- absolultely first class.

But I feel sympathy for anyone trying to record music for
TV where sound is such a poor relation. You yourself have
talked recently about programmes on which you worked that
were made with no proper budget and inadequate time for
sound.

Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Richard Robinson wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) said:
In article ,
Eiron wrote:
Very odd you want 'respect' shown to fiddle players regardless, but
are happy to slag off every other trade. Are you a frustrated fiddle
player?

The OED says "Now only in familiar or contemptuous use".

It's what a pro musician friend of mine calls his. ;-)

But then he is without an inch of pretension.

As a tune-playing "folky", if I heard a fiddle-player talk about a
'violin' I'd wonder if they'd lost their way to an orchestra. Likewise,
(a small random selection of) the CD sleeves from highly respected
professional players decribe their instrument as 'fiddle'. Maybe that
counts as "familiar" ? It's certainly not contemptuous.

Context is all.

Quite. And consider the jokes muso tell about other musos.


BTW, do you agree with Iain:-

'A violin needs air. "Tight" mics (your term) sound awful
on strings They need air and lots of it.'

in terms of playing in a band on stage? Do you see that fiddle mic'd from
miles away?

--
*Dancing is a perpendicular expression of a horizontal desire *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Richard Robinson wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) said:
In article ,
Eiron wrote:
Very odd you want 'respect' shown to fiddle players regardless, but
are happy to slag off every other trade. Are you a frustrated fiddle
player?

The OED says "Now only in familiar or contemptuous use".

It's what a pro musician friend of mine calls his. ;-)

But then he is without an inch of pretension.

As a tune-playing "folky", if I heard a fiddle-player talk about a
'violin' I'd wonder if they'd lost their way to an orchestra. Likewise,
(a small random selection of) the CD sleeves from highly respected
professional players decribe their instrument as 'fiddle'. Maybe that
counts as "familiar" ? It's certainly not contemptuous.

Context is all.

Quite. And consider the jokes muso tell about other musos.


BTW, do you agree with Iain:-

'A violin needs air. "Tight" mics (your term) sound awful
on strings They need air and lots of it.'

in terms of playing in a band on stage? Do you see that fiddle mic'd from
miles away?


Violins need air. And a full string section 14,12,10,8, 6
need a lot of it. The sound from a Decca tree proves
this wonderfully.

Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

Dave Plowman (News) said:
Richard Robinson wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) said:
Eiron wrote:
Very odd you want 'respect' shown to fiddle players regardless, but
are happy to slag off every other trade. Are you a frustrated fiddle
player?

The OED says "Now only in familiar or contemptuous use".

It's what a pro musician friend of mine calls his. ;-)

But then he is without an inch of pretension.

As a tune-playing "folky", if I heard a fiddle-player talk about a
'violin' I'd wonder if they'd lost their way to an orchestra. Likewise,
(a small random selection of) the CD sleeves from highly respected
professional players decribe their instrument as 'fiddle'. Maybe that
counts as "familiar" ? It's certainly not contemptuous.

Context is all.

Quite. And consider the jokes muso tell about other musos.


BTW, do you agree with Iain:-

'A violin needs air. "Tight" mics (your term) sound awful
on strings They need air and lots of it.'

in terms of playing in a band on stage? Do you see that fiddle mic'd from
miles away?

I have no opinion, I'm too busy getting bothered that nothing can be done
about the monitors because Feedback. And anyway, miking up other instruments
is Someone Else's Problem.

[chorus: Eeh, you 'ad _monitors_ ? We 'ad to make do wi' listenin' to each
other]

But, in terms of what can be seen when a band's playing on stage, youtube is
full of videos.

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Richard Robinson" wrote in message
o.uk...
Jim Lesurf said:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Eiron
wrote:
Very odd you want 'respect' shown to fiddle players regardless, but
are happy to slag off every other trade. Are you a frustrated fiddle
player?

The OED says "Now only in familiar or contemptuous use".

It's what a pro musician friend of mine calls his. ;-)

By co-incidence I was at a (social) meeting yesterday where one of the
people was a viola/violin player and teacher we know and someone else was
a
Gaelic speaker from Harris. One of the questions he raised was wrt what
was
the 'difference' (if any) between a Violin and a Fiddle. This was in the
context of it being called a 'fiddle' in terms of Scots/Gaelic
folk/traditional music but a 'violin' for classical. Certainly not a
'contemptuous' term for the traditional players, etc. So 'familiar' may
cover it.

Snap !

The view was that there wasn't necessarily any specific inherent
difference
required between the instruments to which the terms were applied. But
there
could be in terms of the way it was played or perhaps 'set up'.

It's not my instrument, I'm a clarinettist, so I can't say for sure, but
some of the people I meet in 'traditional' contexts also play in
orchestras,
and I don't think I've ever heard any mention of needing separate
instruments. Given the cost of a good one, I'd be suprised.

One can buy a pretty good used low-bridge folk fiddle for
maybe UKP100. An Amati violin can costs three times as
much as a Bentley. Don't confuse the two:-)

Iain



--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

Iain Churches said:
"Richard Robinson" wrote in message
o.uk...
Jim Lesurf said:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Eiron
wrote:
Very odd you want 'respect' shown to fiddle players regardless, but
are happy to slag off every other trade. Are you a frustrated
fiddle player?

The OED says "Now only in familiar or contemptuous use".

It's what a pro musician friend of mine calls his. ;-)

By co-incidence I was at a (social) meeting yesterday where one of the
people was a viola/violin player and teacher we know and someone else
was a Gaelic speaker from Harris. One of the questions he raised was wrt
what was the 'difference' (if any) between a Violin and a Fiddle. This
was in the context of it being called a 'fiddle' in terms of
Scots/Gaelic folk/traditional music but a 'violin' for classical.
Certainly not a 'contemptuous' term for the traditional players, etc. So
'familiar' may cover it.

Snap !

The view was that there wasn't necessarily any specific inherent
difference required between the instruments to which the terms were
applied. But there could be in terms of the way it was played or perhaps
'set up'.

It's not my instrument, I'm a clarinettist, so I can't say for sure, but
some of the people I meet in 'traditional' contexts also play in
orchestras, and I don't think I've ever heard any mention of needing
separate instruments. Given the cost of a good one, I'd be suprised.

One can buy a pretty good used low-bridge folk fiddle for maybe UKP100. An
Amati violin can costs three times as much as a Bentley.

I've heard of Hungarian players using a flat-bridge instrument for
accompaniment, I don't believe I've ever heard of it closer to home, except
in vague 'reconstruction' terms of what people might have done a long time
ago[1]. And most of the people I've heard from seem to expect to pay a few
times that for a (ahem) fiddlestick.

(conversation collapses into vicarious willywaving)

Don't confuse the two:-)

I think our contacts with 'folk' music must be very different, but I'll be
sure to notice the other sort if I see one.

[1] I did see something called a 'crwth' once, which was something someone
thought some Welsh players might have used once[2], with a flat bridge. It
wasn't very handy for playing a tune on, not being able to get at a single
string.

[2] Used once ? Is that's why they're so cheap secondhand ? runs away

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Richard Robinson" wrote in message
o.uk...

I've heard of Hungarian players using a flat-bridge instrument for
accompaniment, I don't believe I've ever heard of it closer to home,
except
in vague 'reconstruction' terms of what people might have done a long time
ago[1]. And most of the people I've heard from seem to expect to pay a few
times that for a (ahem) fiddlestick.

I think our contacts with 'folk' music must be very different, but I'll be
sure to notice the other sort if I see one.

A flat bridge doesn't sound practical at all for a bowed instrument:-)

Back in the days when folk music sold records in good numbers,
I made a quite a lot of folk albums for the Argo label
(a Decca subsiduary) whose artist roster included Ewan McColl,
Peggy Seager,The Druids,Peter Bellamy, The Songwainers etc etc.

They were interesting times. I was interested particularly in playing
techniques, and it was Dave Swarbrick, over a pint or two at the
Railway, who brought the the peculiarities of the "fiddle" to my
attention.

I have always tried to be as accurate as I can in music.
Why say trumpet if you really mean flugel horn :-)

Iain

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Iain Churches said:
"Richard Robinson" wrote in message
o.uk...

I've heard of Hungarian players using a flat-bridge instrument for
accompaniment, I don't believe I've ever heard of it closer to home,
except
in vague 'reconstruction' terms of what people might have done a long time
ago[1]. And most of the people I've heard from seem to expect to pay a few
times that for a (ahem) fiddlestick.

I think our contacts with 'folk' music must be very different, but I'll be
sure to notice the other sort if I see one.

A flat bridge doesn't sound practical at all for a bowed instrument:-)

No ... I think Hungarian traditions tend to use it for a kind of chordal
accompaniment.

Flat is the only sort of different bridge I've ever heard mention of. But,
it's not my instrument, or specialist subject. Just, this is the first time
i've ever heard mention of any differences in the instruments, so I'm a bit
curious.

Back in the days when folk music sold records in good numbers,
I made a quite a lot of folk albums for the Argo label
(a Decca subsiduary) whose artist roster included Ewan McColl,
Peggy Seager,The Druids,Peter Bellamy, The Songwainers etc etc.

They were interesting times. I was interested particularly in playing
techniques, and it was Dave Swarbrick, over a pint or two at the
Railway, who brought the the peculiarities of the "fiddle" to my
attention.

So, since we seem to have focussed on bridges, are you saying Swarbrick used
a different bridge to orchestral players ? (Come to that, do orchestral
players differ on the issue ?)

I have always tried to be as accurate as I can in music.
Why say trumpet if you really mean flugel horn :-)

What I want to know is why everybody who isn't sure asks me if that thing's
an oboe ? Way, way more common than "is it a clarinet ?".


--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
I show respect to all musicians, and everyone else who earns it.
I never call them "musos" as I have seen you do. Neither do
I call string players "gipsies", as I have seen you do.

We were taught when speaking to a classical conductor to
call him/her "maestro" and refer to the principal violin as
concertmaster, leader or first-chair.

Absolutely no surprise you couldn't get a job in TV.

--
*If I agreed with you, we'd both be wrong.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Richard Robinson" wrote in message
o.uk...
So, since we seem to have focussed on bridges, are you saying Swarbrick
used
a different bridge to orchestral players ? (Come to that, do orchestral
players differ on the issue ?)

Yes. It was he who brought to my attention that the
fiddle bridge is lower. On the orchestral violin the
higher bridge helps prevent the player accidentally
bowing a second string in fast passages, whereas
in fiddle playing double stopping is used frequently.


I have always tried to be as accurate as I can in music.
Why say trumpet if you really mean flugel horn :-)

What I want to know is why everybody who isn't sure asks me if that
thing's
an oboe ? Way, way more common than "is it a clarinet ?".

And yet the clarinet is far more often seen than the oboe.
Odd.

When I become involved in music recording professionally,
I suddenly found myself among people who could differentiate
in a second between a Bosendorefer, Bechstein, Steinway,
Yamaha or Baldwin grand. Many had perfect pitch. As
students we used to try to set an oscillator to A=442 with
eyes closed. Most of us were pretty good at that!

In aural perception were asked to listen to an alto saxophone
playing in low register, and tenor saxophone in high register
and say which was which. When I mentioned this to my tutor
he said "They do sound different. But one simple clue is
that if one sounds sharp, it is probably the tenor (top end) or if
one sounds flat (low end) it is almost ceretainly the alto". Later
investigation of the instrument's design clarified things enormously.

I specialised later in baroque and early music recording for
L'Oiseau Lyre (also a Decca subsiduary) The sound of
the early instruments is totally different to their modern
counterparts. I was particularly interested in the
chalumeau, which the predecessor of your clarinet.

Sometimes there were no other recordings to use as any kind of a
reference, so we were encouraged to study the score and parts,
often not even printed but photocopies of originals. Many
interesting things revealed themselves:

Today we commonly use only two clefs, the G and F clef.
Baroque composers used several, among them a C Soprano
clef (drawn like a tenor block clef) which centred on the
first line (which is E on our treble clef) So, for the key
of D, the two sharps were F# on the second space
(treble clef A) and fourth space (treble clef E)
Wonderful!

Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
I show respect to all musicians, and everyone else who earns it.
I never call them "musos" as I have seen you do. Neither do
I call string players "gipsies", as I have seen you do.

We were taught when speaking to a classical conductor to
call him/her "maestro" and refer to the principal violin as
concertmaster, leader or first-chair.

Absolutely no surprise you couldn't get a job in TV.

I ever even considered it-)

Iain

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

On 27/01/2017 09:29, Iain Churches wrote:
I specialised later in baroque and early music recording for
L'Oiseau Lyre (also a Decca subsiduary) The sound of
the early instruments is totally different to their modern
counterparts. I was particularly interested in the
chalumeau, which the predecessor of your clarinet.

Was that with David Munro and Christopher Hogwood?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
I show respect to all musicians, and everyone else who earns it.
I never call them "musos" as I have seen you do. Neither do
I call string players "gipsies", as I have seen you do.

We were taught when speaking to a classical conductor to
call him/her "maestro" and refer to the principal violin as
concertmaster, leader or first-chair.

Absolutely no surprise you couldn't get a job in TV.

I ever even considered it-)

You would not have done well. Trust me. ;-)

--
*'Progress' and 'Change' are not synonyms.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Reprocessed Stereo (with example)
 

"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
On 27/01/2017 09:29, Iain Churches wrote:
I specialised later in baroque and early music recording for
L'Oiseau Lyre (also a Decca subsiduary) The sound of
the early instruments is totally different to their modern
counterparts. I was particularly interested in the
chalumeau, which the predecessor of your clarinet.

Was that with David Munro and Christopher Hogwood?

Yes indeed.

Iain