Jim Lesurf said:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Eiron
wrote:
Very odd you want 'respect' shown to fiddle players regardless, but
are happy to slag off every other trade. Are you a frustrated fiddle
player?

The OED says "Now only in familiar or contemptuous use".

It's what a pro musician friend of mine calls his. ;-)

By co-incidence I was at a (social) meeting yesterday where one of the
people was a viola/violin player and teacher we know and someone else was a
Gaelic speaker from Harris. One of the questions he raised was wrt what was
the 'difference' (if any) between a Violin and a Fiddle. This was in the
context of it being called a 'fiddle' in terms of Scots/Gaelic
folk/traditional music but a 'violin' for classical. Certainly not a
'contemptuous' term for the traditional players, etc. So 'familiar' may
cover it.

Snap !

The view was that there wasn't necessarily any specific inherent difference
required between the instruments to which the terms were applied. But there
could be in terms of the way it was played or perhaps 'set up'.

It's not my instrument, I'm a clarinettist, so I can't say for sure, but
some of the people I meet in 'traditional' contexts also play in orchestras,
and I don't think I've ever heard any mention of needing separate
instruments. Given the cost of a good one, I'd be suprised.

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

"Richard Robinson" wrote in message
o.uk...
Jim Lesurf said:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Eiron
wrote:
Very odd you want 'respect' shown to fiddle players regardless, but
are happy to slag off every other trade. Are you a frustrated fiddle
player?

The OED says "Now only in familiar or contemptuous use".

It's what a pro musician friend of mine calls his. ;-)

By co-incidence I was at a (social) meeting yesterday where one of the
people was a viola/violin player and teacher we know and someone else was
a
Gaelic speaker from Harris. One of the questions he raised was wrt what
was
the 'difference' (if any) between a Violin and a Fiddle. This was in the
context of it being called a 'fiddle' in terms of Scots/Gaelic
folk/traditional music but a 'violin' for classical. Certainly not a
'contemptuous' term for the traditional players, etc. So 'familiar' may
cover it.

Snap !

The view was that there wasn't necessarily any specific inherent
difference
required between the instruments to which the terms were applied. But
there
could be in terms of the way it was played or perhaps 'set up'.

It's not my instrument, I'm a clarinettist, so I can't say for sure, but
some of the people I meet in 'traditional' contexts also play in
orchestras,
and I don't think I've ever heard any mention of needing separate
instruments. Given the cost of a good one, I'd be suprised.

One can buy a pretty good used low-bridge folk fiddle for
maybe UKP100. An Amati violin can costs three times as
much as a Bentley. Don't confuse the two:-)

Iain



--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Iain Churches said:
"Richard Robinson" wrote in message
o.uk...
Jim Lesurf said:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Eiron
wrote:
Very odd you want 'respect' shown to fiddle players regardless, but
are happy to slag off every other trade. Are you a frustrated
fiddle player?

The OED says "Now only in familiar or contemptuous use".

It's what a pro musician friend of mine calls his. ;-)

By co-incidence I was at a (social) meeting yesterday where one of the
people was a viola/violin player and teacher we know and someone else
was a Gaelic speaker from Harris. One of the questions he raised was wrt
what was the 'difference' (if any) between a Violin and a Fiddle. This
was in the context of it being called a 'fiddle' in terms of
Scots/Gaelic folk/traditional music but a 'violin' for classical.
Certainly not a 'contemptuous' term for the traditional players, etc. So
'familiar' may cover it.

Snap !

The view was that there wasn't necessarily any specific inherent
difference required between the instruments to which the terms were
applied. But there could be in terms of the way it was played or perhaps
'set up'.

It's not my instrument, I'm a clarinettist, so I can't say for sure, but
some of the people I meet in 'traditional' contexts also play in
orchestras, and I don't think I've ever heard any mention of needing
separate instruments. Given the cost of a good one, I'd be suprised.

One can buy a pretty good used low-bridge folk fiddle for maybe UKP100. An
Amati violin can costs three times as much as a Bentley.

I've heard of Hungarian players using a flat-bridge instrument for
accompaniment, I don't believe I've ever heard of it closer to home, except
in vague 'reconstruction' terms of what people might have done a long time
ago[1]. And most of the people I've heard from seem to expect to pay a few
times that for a (ahem) fiddlestick.

(conversation collapses into vicarious willywaving)

Don't confuse the two:-)

I think our contacts with 'folk' music must be very different, but I'll be
sure to notice the other sort if I see one.

[1] I did see something called a 'crwth' once, which was something someone
thought some Welsh players might have used once[2], with a flat bridge. It
wasn't very handy for playing a tune on, not being able to get at a single
string.

[2] Used once ? Is that's why they're so cheap secondhand ? runs away

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

"Richard Robinson" wrote in message
o.uk...

I've heard of Hungarian players using a flat-bridge instrument for
accompaniment, I don't believe I've ever heard of it closer to home,
except
in vague 'reconstruction' terms of what people might have done a long time
ago[1]. And most of the people I've heard from seem to expect to pay a few
times that for a (ahem) fiddlestick.

I think our contacts with 'folk' music must be very different, but I'll be
sure to notice the other sort if I see one.

A flat bridge doesn't sound practical at all for a bowed instrument:-)

Back in the days when folk music sold records in good numbers,
I made a quite a lot of folk albums for the Argo label
(a Decca subsiduary) whose artist roster included Ewan McColl,
Peggy Seager,The Druids,Peter Bellamy, The Songwainers etc etc.

They were interesting times. I was interested particularly in playing
techniques, and it was Dave Swarbrick, over a pint or two at the
Railway, who brought the the peculiarities of the "fiddle" to my
attention.

I have always tried to be as accurate as I can in music.
Why say trumpet if you really mean flugel horn :-)

Iain

Iain Churches said:
"Richard Robinson" wrote in message
o.uk...

I've heard of Hungarian players using a flat-bridge instrument for
accompaniment, I don't believe I've ever heard of it closer to home,
except
in vague 'reconstruction' terms of what people might have done a long time
ago[1]. And most of the people I've heard from seem to expect to pay a few
times that for a (ahem) fiddlestick.

I think our contacts with 'folk' music must be very different, but I'll be
sure to notice the other sort if I see one.

A flat bridge doesn't sound practical at all for a bowed instrument:-)

No ... I think Hungarian traditions tend to use it for a kind of chordal
accompaniment.

Flat is the only sort of different bridge I've ever heard mention of. But,
it's not my instrument, or specialist subject. Just, this is the first time
i've ever heard mention of any differences in the instruments, so I'm a bit
curious.

Back in the days when folk music sold records in good numbers,
I made a quite a lot of folk albums for the Argo label
(a Decca subsiduary) whose artist roster included Ewan McColl,
Peggy Seager,The Druids,Peter Bellamy, The Songwainers etc etc.

They were interesting times. I was interested particularly in playing
techniques, and it was Dave Swarbrick, over a pint or two at the
Railway, who brought the the peculiarities of the "fiddle" to my
attention.

So, since we seem to have focussed on bridges, are you saying Swarbrick used
a different bridge to orchestral players ? (Come to that, do orchestral
players differ on the issue ?)

I have always tried to be as accurate as I can in music.
Why say trumpet if you really mean flugel horn :-)

What I want to know is why everybody who isn't sure asks me if that thing's
an oboe ? Way, way more common than "is it a clarinet ?".


--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

"Richard Robinson" wrote in message
o.uk...
So, since we seem to have focussed on bridges, are you saying Swarbrick
used
a different bridge to orchestral players ? (Come to that, do orchestral
players differ on the issue ?)

Yes. It was he who brought to my attention that the
fiddle bridge is lower. On the orchestral violin the
higher bridge helps prevent the player accidentally
bowing a second string in fast passages, whereas
in fiddle playing double stopping is used frequently.


I have always tried to be as accurate as I can in music.
Why say trumpet if you really mean flugel horn :-)

What I want to know is why everybody who isn't sure asks me if that
thing's
an oboe ? Way, way more common than "is it a clarinet ?".

And yet the clarinet is far more often seen than the oboe.
Odd.

When I become involved in music recording professionally,
I suddenly found myself among people who could differentiate
in a second between a Bosendorefer, Bechstein, Steinway,
Yamaha or Baldwin grand. Many had perfect pitch. As
students we used to try to set an oscillator to A=442 with
eyes closed. Most of us were pretty good at that!

In aural perception were asked to listen to an alto saxophone
playing in low register, and tenor saxophone in high register
and say which was which. When I mentioned this to my tutor
he said "They do sound different. But one simple clue is
that if one sounds sharp, it is probably the tenor (top end) or if
one sounds flat (low end) it is almost ceretainly the alto". Later
investigation of the instrument's design clarified things enormously.

I specialised later in baroque and early music recording for
L'Oiseau Lyre (also a Decca subsiduary) The sound of
the early instruments is totally different to their modern
counterparts. I was particularly interested in the
chalumeau, which the predecessor of your clarinet.

Sometimes there were no other recordings to use as any kind of a
reference, so we were encouraged to study the score and parts,
often not even printed but photocopies of originals. Many
interesting things revealed themselves:

Today we commonly use only two clefs, the G and F clef.
Baroque composers used several, among them a C Soprano
clef (drawn like a tenor block clef) which centred on the
first line (which is E on our treble clef) So, for the key
of D, the two sharps were F# on the second space
(treble clef A) and fourth space (treble clef E)
Wonderful!

Iain

On 27/01/2017 09:29, Iain Churches wrote:
I specialised later in baroque and early music recording for
L'Oiseau Lyre (also a Decca subsiduary) The sound of
the early instruments is totally different to their modern
counterparts. I was particularly interested in the
chalumeau, which the predecessor of your clarinet.

Was that with David Munro and Christopher Hogwood?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Iain Churches said:
"Richard Robinson" wrote in message
o.uk...
So, since we seem to have focussed on bridges, are you saying Swarbrick
used a different bridge to orchestral players ? (Come to that, do
orchestral players differ on the issue ?)

Yes. It was he who brought to my attention that the fiddle bridge is
lower. On the orchestral violin the higher bridge helps prevent the
player accidentally bowing a second string in fast passages, whereas in
fiddle playing double stopping is used frequently.

Well, okay, thanks. I'm just suprised that in 40 years of dealing with
fiddle players I've never heard any mention of any differences in the
instrument. I shall have to ask some questions next time I see an
opportunity.

But you obviously move in more exalted circles than I do, perhaps that's a
clue. Which raises questions as to who these 'folk' are ...

[evil grin. uk.music.folk is long deserted, but back in the day that would
have raised a chant of 'horse alert !', the population being tired of seeing
that discussion always converge on "it's all folk music, I ain't never heard
no horses singing it" and never get any further.]

[...]

Today we commonly use only two clefs, the G and F clef. Baroque composers
used several, among them a C Soprano clef (drawn like a tenor block clef)
which centred on the first line (which is E on our treble clef) So, for
the key of D, the two sharps were F# on the second space (treble clef A)
and fourth space (treble clef E) Wonderful!

I think some intruments still do ? Or did when I was younger, anyway; my
late-60s copy of the Bach cello suites shifts between treble clef and the
one centred on the 4th line up. Disconcerting to read if you're not used to
it (I used to use the bits that didn't do that for sight-reading practice.
For a while, obviously).


And that's before we start on scordatura ...


--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html