"Richard Robinson" wrote in message
o.uk...

I've heard of Hungarian players using a flat-bridge instrument for
accompaniment, I don't believe I've ever heard of it closer to home,
except
in vague 'reconstruction' terms of what people might have done a long time
ago[1]. And most of the people I've heard from seem to expect to pay a few
times that for a (ahem) fiddlestick.

I think our contacts with 'folk' music must be very different, but I'll be
sure to notice the other sort if I see one.

A flat bridge doesn't sound practical at all for a bowed instrument:-)

Back in the days when folk music sold records in good numbers,
I made a quite a lot of folk albums for the Argo label
(a Decca subsiduary) whose artist roster included Ewan McColl,
Peggy Seager,The Druids,Peter Bellamy, The Songwainers etc etc.

They were interesting times. I was interested particularly in playing
techniques, and it was Dave Swarbrick, over a pint or two at the
Railway, who brought the the peculiarities of the "fiddle" to my
attention.

I have always tried to be as accurate as I can in music.
Why say trumpet if you really mean flugel horn :-)

Iain

Iain Churches said:
"Richard Robinson" wrote in message
o.uk...

I've heard of Hungarian players using a flat-bridge instrument for
accompaniment, I don't believe I've ever heard of it closer to home,
except
in vague 'reconstruction' terms of what people might have done a long time
ago[1]. And most of the people I've heard from seem to expect to pay a few
times that for a (ahem) fiddlestick.

I think our contacts with 'folk' music must be very different, but I'll be
sure to notice the other sort if I see one.

A flat bridge doesn't sound practical at all for a bowed instrument:-)

No ... I think Hungarian traditions tend to use it for a kind of chordal
accompaniment.

Flat is the only sort of different bridge I've ever heard mention of. But,
it's not my instrument, or specialist subject. Just, this is the first time
i've ever heard mention of any differences in the instruments, so I'm a bit
curious.

Back in the days when folk music sold records in good numbers,
I made a quite a lot of folk albums for the Argo label
(a Decca subsiduary) whose artist roster included Ewan McColl,
Peggy Seager,The Druids,Peter Bellamy, The Songwainers etc etc.

They were interesting times. I was interested particularly in playing
techniques, and it was Dave Swarbrick, over a pint or two at the
Railway, who brought the the peculiarities of the "fiddle" to my
attention.

So, since we seem to have focussed on bridges, are you saying Swarbrick used
a different bridge to orchestral players ? (Come to that, do orchestral
players differ on the issue ?)

I have always tried to be as accurate as I can in music.
Why say trumpet if you really mean flugel horn :-)

What I want to know is why everybody who isn't sure asks me if that thing's
an oboe ? Way, way more common than "is it a clarinet ?".


--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

"Richard Robinson" wrote in message
o.uk...
So, since we seem to have focussed on bridges, are you saying Swarbrick
used
a different bridge to orchestral players ? (Come to that, do orchestral
players differ on the issue ?)

Yes. It was he who brought to my attention that the
fiddle bridge is lower. On the orchestral violin the
higher bridge helps prevent the player accidentally
bowing a second string in fast passages, whereas
in fiddle playing double stopping is used frequently.


I have always tried to be as accurate as I can in music.
Why say trumpet if you really mean flugel horn :-)

What I want to know is why everybody who isn't sure asks me if that
thing's
an oboe ? Way, way more common than "is it a clarinet ?".

And yet the clarinet is far more often seen than the oboe.
Odd.

When I become involved in music recording professionally,
I suddenly found myself among people who could differentiate
in a second between a Bosendorefer, Bechstein, Steinway,
Yamaha or Baldwin grand. Many had perfect pitch. As
students we used to try to set an oscillator to A=442 with
eyes closed. Most of us were pretty good at that!

In aural perception were asked to listen to an alto saxophone
playing in low register, and tenor saxophone in high register
and say which was which. When I mentioned this to my tutor
he said "They do sound different. But one simple clue is
that if one sounds sharp, it is probably the tenor (top end) or if
one sounds flat (low end) it is almost ceretainly the alto". Later
investigation of the instrument's design clarified things enormously.

I specialised later in baroque and early music recording for
L'Oiseau Lyre (also a Decca subsiduary) The sound of
the early instruments is totally different to their modern
counterparts. I was particularly interested in the
chalumeau, which the predecessor of your clarinet.

Sometimes there were no other recordings to use as any kind of a
reference, so we were encouraged to study the score and parts,
often not even printed but photocopies of originals. Many
interesting things revealed themselves:

Today we commonly use only two clefs, the G and F clef.
Baroque composers used several, among them a C Soprano
clef (drawn like a tenor block clef) which centred on the
first line (which is E on our treble clef) So, for the key
of D, the two sharps were F# on the second space
(treble clef A) and fourth space (treble clef E)
Wonderful!

Iain

On 27/01/2017 09:29, Iain Churches wrote:
I specialised later in baroque and early music recording for
L'Oiseau Lyre (also a Decca subsiduary) The sound of
the early instruments is totally different to their modern
counterparts. I was particularly interested in the
chalumeau, which the predecessor of your clarinet.

Was that with David Munro and Christopher Hogwood?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
news
On 27/01/2017 09:29, Iain Churches wrote:
I specialised later in baroque and early music recording for
L'Oiseau Lyre (also a Decca subsiduary) The sound of
the early instruments is totally different to their modern
counterparts. I was particularly interested in the
chalumeau, which the predecessor of your clarinet.

Was that with David Munro and Christopher Hogwood?

Yes indeed.

Iain

On 27/01/2017 11:14, Iain Churches wrote:
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
news
On 27/01/2017 09:29, Iain Churches wrote:
I specialised later in baroque and early music recording for
L'Oiseau Lyre (also a Decca subsiduary) The sound of
the early instruments is totally different to their modern
counterparts. I was particularly interested in the
chalumeau, which the predecessor of your clarinet.

Was that with David Munro and Christopher Hogwood?

Yes indeed.


Somewhere I've probably got some of your work, must dig out my box of LPs


--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
news
On 27/01/2017 11:14, Iain Churches wrote:
"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
news
On 27/01/2017 09:29, Iain Churches wrote:
I specialised later in baroque and early music recording for
L'Oiseau Lyre (also a Decca subsiduary) The sound of
the early instruments is totally different to their modern
counterparts. I was particularly interested in the
chalumeau, which the predecessor of your clarinet.

Was that with David Munro and Christopher Hogwood?

Yes indeed.


Somewhere I've probably got some of your work, must dig out my box of LPs

Emma Kirkby was L'Oiseau Lyre artist.
One of my favourites L'OL projects was Dowland
"First Booke of Songs" Conductor Anthony Rooler.
Producer Peter Wadland. Available on vinyl and CD

Christopher Hogwood was a remarkable talent. I
was fortunate to work with him often.

Iain

Iain Churches said:
"Richard Robinson" wrote in message
o.uk...
So, since we seem to have focussed on bridges, are you saying Swarbrick
used a different bridge to orchestral players ? (Come to that, do
orchestral players differ on the issue ?)

Yes. It was he who brought to my attention that the fiddle bridge is
lower. On the orchestral violin the higher bridge helps prevent the
player accidentally bowing a second string in fast passages, whereas in
fiddle playing double stopping is used frequently.

Well, okay, thanks. I'm just suprised that in 40 years of dealing with
fiddle players I've never heard any mention of any differences in the
instrument. I shall have to ask some questions next time I see an
opportunity.

But you obviously move in more exalted circles than I do, perhaps that's a
clue. Which raises questions as to who these 'folk' are ...

[evil grin. uk.music.folk is long deserted, but back in the day that would
have raised a chant of 'horse alert !', the population being tired of seeing
that discussion always converge on "it's all folk music, I ain't never heard
no horses singing it" and never get any further.]

[...]

Today we commonly use only two clefs, the G and F clef. Baroque composers
used several, among them a C Soprano clef (drawn like a tenor block clef)
which centred on the first line (which is E on our treble clef) So, for
the key of D, the two sharps were F# on the second space (treble clef A)
and fourth space (treble clef E) Wonderful!

I think some intruments still do ? Or did when I was younger, anyway; my
late-60s copy of the Bach cello suites shifts between treble clef and the
one centred on the 4th line up. Disconcerting to read if you're not used to
it (I used to use the bits that didn't do that for sight-reading practice.
For a while, obviously).


And that's before we start on scordatura ...


--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

"Richard Robinson" wrote in message
o.uk...
Iain Churches said:
"Richard Robinson" wrote in message
o.uk...
So, since we seem to have focussed on bridges, are you saying Swarbrick
used a different bridge to orchestral players ? (Come to that, do
orchestral players differ on the issue ?)

Yes. It was he who brought to my attention that the fiddle bridge is
lower. On the orchestral violin the higher bridge helps prevent the
player accidentally bowing a second string in fast passages, whereas in
fiddle playing double stopping is used frequently.

Well, okay, thanks. I'm just suprised that in 40 years of dealing with
fiddle players I've never heard any mention of any differences in the
instrument. I shall have to ask some questions next time I see an
opportunity.

Well. It probably does not rank high in the list of topics discussed
beween sets at a folk gig at the Frog and Nightgown:-)
But there again, the devil is in the detail. And I was very interested
in the detail. I worked often with a folk fiddler who kept a stick
of chalk under the bridge, so that he could mark the position of the
first note of a song on the fingerboard. The band frequenty planned
a jape to erase his chalk mark when he was otherwise engaged.



But you obviously move in more exalted circles than I do, perhaps that's a
clue. Which raises questions as to who these 'folk' are ...

[evil grin. uk.music.folk is long deserted, but back in the day that would
have raised a chant of 'horse alert !', the population being tired of
seeing
that discussion always converge on "it's all folk music, I ain't never
heard
no horses singing it" and never get any further.]

I didn't even know that uk.music.folk even existed:-)

I took my first rustic steps when folk music producer Fred Woods
asked if I would record some demos for two artists Martin
Wyndham-Read and Cyril Tawney who were offering new material.
The demos turned out well, and so when Argo decided to record
albums with these artists, I joined the team. Argo also had
Dave Goulder and Liz Dyer on their books.
I recorded "The Raven and The Crow"
which still gets airplay and sells well both on CD and vinyl.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzDR4EaKbKk

The Sexton and the Carpenter was my favourite. Take a listen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4okYxdVhhGk


Today we commonly use only two clefs, the G and F clef. Baroque
composers
used several, among them a C Soprano clef (drawn like a tenor block
clef)
which centred on the first line (which is E on our treble clef) So, for
the key of D, the two sharps were F# on the second space (treble clef A)
and fourth space (treble clef E) Wonderful!

I think some intruments still do ? Or did when I was younger, anyway; my
late-60s copy of the Bach cello suites shifts between treble clef and the
one centred on the 4th line up. Disconcerting to read if you're not used
to
it (I used to use the bits that didn't do that for sight-reading practice.
For a while, obviously).

Yes the alto and tenor clefs (still called the C clef) are still used.
But there were four or five of them back in the good old days,
which composers used to slide up and down the staff to avoid
having to write leger lines. If you have even had to sight read
a trombone part, you would see there was method in their
madness.


And that's before we start on scordatura ...

Which takes us nicely to James Taylor

Iain

PS I tried to access your band's site.
The link opened a shoe retailer's page.

Iain Churches said:
"Richard Robinson" wrote in message
o.uk...
Iain Churches said:
"Richard Robinson" wrote in message
o.uk...
So, since we seem to have focussed on bridges, are you saying Swarbrick
used a different bridge to orchestral players ? (Come to that, do
orchestral players differ on the issue ?)

Yes. It was he who brought to my attention that the fiddle bridge is
lower. On the orchestral violin the higher bridge helps prevent the
player accidentally bowing a second string in fast passages, whereas in
fiddle playing double stopping is used frequently.

Well, okay, thanks. I'm just suprised that in 40 years of dealing with
fiddle players I've never heard any mention of any differences in the
instrument. I shall have to ask some questions next time I see an
opportunity.

Well. It probably does not rank high in the list of topics discussed
beween sets at a folk gig at the Frog and Nightgown:-)

Talk with fiddlers, you can't help hearing about the techy details. As a
wind-player with a classical childhood, I talk about 'phrasing'. Fiddlers
reply by only wanting to talk about 'bowing'.

But there again, the devil is in the detail. And I was very interested
in the detail. I worked often with a folk fiddler who kept a stick
of chalk under the bridge, so that he could mark the position of the
first note of a song on the fingerboard. The band frequenty planned
a jape to erase his chalk mark when he was otherwise engaged.

*grin*. "He de-tuned one of my strings. And he won't tell me which !".

You can get stickers for a fiddle-neck, with the lines marked on.


But you obviously move in more exalted circles than I do, perhaps that's
a clue. Which raises questions as to who these 'folk' are ...

[evil grin. uk.music.folk is long deserted, but back in the day that
would have raised a chant of 'horse alert !', the population being tired
of seeing that discussion always converge on "it's all folk music, I
ain't never heard no horses singing it" and never get any further.]

I didn't even know that uk.music.folk even existed:-)

It might as well not, these days. Even the tumbleweed's given up.

I took my first rustic steps when folk music producer Fred Woods asked if
I would record some demos for two artists Martin Wyndham-Read and Cyril
Tawney who were offering new material. The demos turned out well, and so
when Argo decided to record albums with these artists, I joined the team.
Argo also had Dave Goulder and Liz Dyer on their books. I recorded "The
Raven and The Crow" which still gets airplay and sells well both on CD and
vinyl.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzDR4EaKbKk

The Sexton and the Carpenter was my favourite. Take a listen

I know it, ta.

I didn't meet Dave till later. I think I got some little 'production' credit
on a subsequent 'best of' cassette. Should have been "services rendered",
really - basically, the job was to absorb the whisky that the bloke with the
Teac 4-track would otherwise have forced on him (and then stay upright on
the back of Dave's motorbike on the way home). Oh, and try to keep the
bloke's hands off the Great British Spring Reverb, which he had a
some-would-say-excessive liking for. Apart from on, yes, the Sexton and the
Carpenter, where it seemed kind of in order (it could have been the whisky)
so I sat back and let it happen.

These Dry Stone Walls was always my favourite.



PS I tried to access your band's site.
The link opened a shoe retailer's page.

Oh, damn. There was some confusion with my DNS management a few months ago
where they let the domain go unrenewed without my intending them to, so I
had to put it elsewhere and I'd forgotten to update my links. It's now
http://moorgate.tunebook.org.uk/ and the links are fixed, thanks for
pointing it out.



--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html