In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Iain, did you actually even read the question?

Yes. Apologies. I am currently doing a project
on a Studer desk that has phantom on only 12
of the sixteen inputs. Modifying, or making additions
to, the Studer mic modules was not an option, so
we bought 2 of the Thomann phantom supplies.
I thought you had a similar situation.

Interesting. Don't think I've ever seen a mixer with only some of the
mic amps having phantom. It's not as if it would save much cost in
production.

No. It would not have saved anything.
But it was ordered like that, as a custom console, by NDR.
It has some very interestiing and useful features
such as group correlation which are not often seen.

What do you mean by 'group correlation' in practice?


One can assign two or more channels, panned as required
across up to twelve sub-groups. Each subgroup has a
correlation meter similar to this one from an SSL
console.

Ah - thanks. 12 sub groups on what is effectively a 12 channel mixer?

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...ationMeter.jpg

Did Elliot Sound really make the meters for SSL?


Very useful for strings, drum overheads, and of course
anything double-tracked.

This is a much more compact solution than having
twelve vector-scopes, or patching a goniometer across
from the main outputs.

I forgot to mention that on this console, mic channels
13-16 do not even have a "Phantom On" indicator as
the other twelve have, so it was obviously specified
like this. Perhaps channels 13-16 were used
for line level feeds from another control room.

Was this perhaps custom made for radio? They do tend to have dedicated
faders for things like play in machines. To keep things simple for some
DJs.

--
*Husband and cat lost -- reward for cat

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Iain, did you actually even read the question?

Yes. Apologies. I am currently doing a project
on a Studer desk that has phantom on only 12
of the sixteen inputs. Modifying, or making additions
to, the Studer mic modules was not an option, so
we bought 2 of the Thomann phantom supplies.
I thought you had a similar situation.

Interesting. Don't think I've ever seen a mixer with only some of
the
mic amps having phantom. It's not as if it would save much cost in
production.

No. It would not have saved anything.
But it was ordered like that, as a custom console, by NDR.
It has some very interestiing and useful features
such as group correlation which are not often seen.

What do you mean by 'group correlation' in practice?


One can assign two or more channels, panned as required
across up to twelve sub-groups. Each subgroup has a
correlation meter similar to this one from an SSL
console.

Ah - thanks. 12 sub groups on what is effectively a 12 channel mixer?

No. It's sixteen into 24. Don't confuse channels with groups.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...ationMeter.jpg

Did Elliot Sound really make the meters for SSL?

It's an ESB badged generic meter, made by Sifam,
and available from Canford.

http://www.canford.co.uk/Products/Ar...ION-METER-Mk.2

The Studer meter has no logo, and is slightly more elegant
probably RTW

Was this perhaps custom made for radio? They do tend to have dedicated
faders for things like play in machines. To keep things simple for some
DJs.

:-) LOL the Studer 980 is hardly a radio DJ console.
And play-in faders usually have auto start. These do not.

The full-frame model is probably the best large format
analogue music recording console Studer ever made. Its
precedessor the 900 was the biggest selling professional
console worldwide. Like the Neve 55, they are very highly
sought-after these days.

Iain

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Ah - thanks. 12 sub groups on what is effectively a 12 channel mixer?

Are you counting on your fingers? :-)
As stated earlier it has 16 input channels, twelve of
which have phantom.

In music recording there are many sources that need no microphone
(and so no phantom) - Bs guitar can be DI, as can rhythm gtrs,
keyboards, drum machines etc. Some of these use a self powered
DI box, or plug straight into the console.

So 16 into 24 is ideal. One puts down drums and bass first
- that's eleven channels -I'll leave you to work that out - and then
continue with overdubs, keys, strings, brass, woods, percussion
and vocals, separately, often one or two channels only at a time.

Iain

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Ah - thanks. 12 sub groups on what is effectively a 12 channel mixer?

Are you counting on your fingers? :-)
As stated earlier it has 16 input channels, twelve of
which have phantom.

You said earlier perhaps the other four were line level only. Don't you
know?

In music recording there are many sources that need no microphone
(and so no phantom) - Bs guitar can be DI, as can rhythm gtrs,
keyboards, drum machines etc. Some of these use a self powered
DI box, or plug straight into the console.

No ****, Sherlock? Perhaps you don't understand phantom power. Properly
installed, it has no effect on a source which doesn't require it.

So 16 into 24 is ideal. One puts down drums and bass first
- that's eleven channels -I'll leave you to work that out - and then
continue with overdubs, keys, strings, brass, woods, percussion
and vocals, separately, often one or two channels only at a time.

I'm sure it would have its uses in a budget studio.

How many studios have you worked in, Iain, where 12 channels of mic amps
would be adequate for everything? Perhaps OK for a home one where you have
all the time in the world.

--
*The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on my list.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Ah - thanks. 12 sub groups on what is effectively a 12 channel mixer?

Are you counting on your fingers? :-)
As stated earlier it has 16 input channels, twelve of
which have phantom.

You said earlier perhaps the other four were line level only. Don't you
know?

No I did not say that. I said that the last four mic preamps
did not have phatom or even a phantom indicator.
All sixteen input modules are otherwise identical.
I wondered if perhaps the last four had been used as line
feeds from another control room.There was clearly some
good reason.

In music recording there are many sources that need no microphone
(and so no phantom) - Bs guitar can be DI, as can rhythm gtrs,
keyboards, drum machines etc. Some of these use a self powered
DI box, or plug straight into the console.

No ****, Sherlock? Perhaps you don't understand phantom power. Properly
installed, it has no effect on a source which doesn't require it.

The console was specified as 16 into 24 with 12 phantoms, by
NDR. If that troubles you so much, take it up with Studer or
even NDR. The present owner who composes for films and
TV does not use more than ten mic inputs (his drum kit) at a time,
so it is perfect for his needs also, and even though this is a big desk,
it does not have the same footprint as a large format 24/24..

So 16 into 24 is ideal. One puts down drums and bass first
- that's eleven channels -I'll leave you to work that out - and then
continue with overdubs, keys, strings, brass, woods, percussion
and vocals, separately, often one or two channels only at a time.

I'm sure it would have its uses in a budget studio.

Do you have any idea of the value of such a console?
Budget studios use Soundcraft and Mackie.

How many studios have you worked in, Iain, where 12 channels of mic amps
would be adequate for everything? Perhaps OK for a home one where you have
all the time in the world.

In most multritrack productions, one starts with drums,
bass, piano and acoustic guitar. So twelve mic channels
with phantom and one DI is perfect. After that, when you
start track laying you need just one or two mics.

In classical recordings a Decca tree and two outriggers
(five mics in all) is perfect for an orchestra of sixty players.
With another two mics you can add a choir of 60 singers.
That's seven mics, so five channels from twelve unused.

Iain

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
You said earlier perhaps the other four were line level only. Don't you
know?

No I did not say that. I said that the last four mic preamps
did not have phatom or even a phantom indicator.
All sixteen input modules are otherwise identical.
I wondered if perhaps the last four had been used as line
feeds from another control room.There was clearly some
good reason.

Line feeds are generally line level, Iain. Do you understand what that is?

Other than that, I can't think of any reason not to have phantom on all
mic amps - other than to save costs.

In music recording there are many sources that need no microphone
(and so no phantom) - Bs guitar can be DI, as can rhythm gtrs,
keyboards, drum machines etc. Some of these use a self powered
DI box, or plug straight into the console.

No ****, Sherlock? Perhaps you don't understand phantom power. Properly
installed, it has no effect on a source which doesn't require it.

The console was specified as 16 into 24 with 12 phantoms, by
NDR. If that troubles you so much, take it up with Studer or
even NDR. The present owner who composes for films and
TV does not use more than ten mic inputs (his drum kit) at a time,
so it is perfect for his needs also, and even though this is a big desk,
it does not have the same footprint as a large format 24/24..

Well, you could ask them why it was designed this way if it is important
to you. But you are the one who said it was a stupid idea - as you were
using an external phantom supply. Something I've not really seen in use
with pro gear for many decades.

So 16 into 24 is ideal. One puts down drums and bass first
- that's eleven channels -I'll leave you to work that out - and then
continue with overdubs, keys, strings, brass, woods, percussion
and vocals, separately, often one or two channels only at a time.

I'm sure it would have its uses in a budget studio.

Do you have any idea of the value of such a console?
Budget studios use Soundcraft and Mackie.

I've no experience of budget studios, Iain. I bow to your knowledge of
such things. Mackie etc are more entry level stuff you might find in a
kid's bedroom.

How many studios have you worked in, Iain, where 12 channels of mic
amps would be adequate for everything? Perhaps OK for a home one where
you have all the time in the world.

In most multritrack productions, one starts with drums,
bass, piano and acoustic guitar. So twelve mic channels
with phantom and one DI is perfect. After that, when you
start track laying you need just one or two mics.

Then stop things while you re-configure everything for the next bit.
As I said, low budget or very small studio, where time doesn't matter.

In classical recordings a Decca tree and two outriggers
(five mics in all) is perfect for an orchestra of sixty players.
With another two mics you can add a choir of 60 singers.
That's seven mics, so five channels from twelve unused.

Are you talking about multi-track or 'live' recording Iain? Or perhaps you
simply don't understand the different requirements?

--
*Why do overlook and oversee mean opposite things?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
You said earlier perhaps the other four were line level only. Don't you
know?

No I did not say that. I said that the last four mic preamps
did not have phatom or even a phantom indicator.
All sixteen input modules are otherwise identical.
I wondered if perhaps the last four had been used as line
feeds from another control room.There was clearly some
good reason.

Line feeds are generally line level, Iain.

The mic/line preamp on this console, like most, has a gain adjustment
from -20 to +60. 0dB is marked 0.775V Line. Then there are another
six switch positions (MIC) to +60. There is also a trim +/- 10dB.
So mics at all levels and lines feed up to +20 can be used, as on most
large music desks. Neve did something very similar.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...Neve1073LB.jpg


I've no experience of budget studios, Iain.

You seem to know little about professional music
studios either:-)

In most multritrack productions, one starts with drums,
bass, piano and acoustic guitar. So twelve mic channels
with phantom and one DI is perfect. After that, when you
start track laying you need just one or two mics.

Then stop things while you re-configure everything for the next bit.

Naturally. You can't record vocals, brass or strings in a rhythm
section set up.

In classical recordings a Decca tree and two outriggers
(five mics in all) is perfect for an orchestra of sixty players.
With another two mics you can add a choir of 60 singers.
That's seven mics, so five channels from twelve unused.

Are you talking about multi-track or 'live' recording Iain?

In music recording "live" means "in front of an audience"

You could feed each mic of the tree to its own track,
hence multitrack, if you chose.(But why would you want
to do that?) Most prefer to record such a set up in
"straight stereo"

In either application a console of this type is a good choice.

Iain

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
No I did not say that. I said that the last four mic preamps
did not have phatom or even a phantom indicator.
All sixteen input modules are otherwise identical.
I wondered if perhaps the last four had been used as line
feeds from another control room.There was clearly some
good reason.

Line feeds are generally line level, Iain.

The mic/line preamp on this console, like most, has a gain adjustment
from -20 to +60. 0dB is marked 0.775V Line. Then there are another
six switch positions (MIC) to +60. There is also a trim +/- 10dB.
So mics at all levels and lines feed up to +20 can be used, as on most
large music desks. Neve did something very similar.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...Neve1073LB.jpg

Are you just reassuring yourself, Iain? You are the one who offered the
explanation of the lack of phantom on those channels being because they
were used as line inputs only.


I've no experience of budget studios, Iain.

You seem to know little about professional music
studios either:-)

Certainly not the weird ones you seem to associated with, no.

In most multritrack productions, one starts with drums,
bass, piano and acoustic guitar. So twelve mic channels
with phantom and one DI is perfect. After that, when you
start track laying you need just one or two mics.

Then stop things while you re-configure everything for the next bit.

Naturally. You can't record vocals, brass or strings in a rhythm
section set up.

Back to these tiny studios you are familiar with.

In classical recordings a Decca tree and two outriggers
(five mics in all) is perfect for an orchestra of sixty players.
With another two mics you can add a choir of 60 singers.
That's seven mics, so five channels from twelve unused.

Are you talking about multi-track or 'live' recording Iain?

In music recording "live" means "in front of an audience"

No. That would be live. Not 'live'.


You could feed each mic of the tree to its own track,
hence multitrack, if you chose.(But why would you want
to do that?) Most prefer to record such a set up in
"straight stereo"

You seem to have got that bit right at least.

In either application a console of this type is a good choice.

--
*I'm not as think as you drunk I am.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
No I did not say that. I said that the last four mic preamps
did not have phatom or even a phantom indicator.
All sixteen input modules are otherwise identical.
I wondered if perhaps the last four had been used as line
feeds from another control room.There was clearly some
good reason.

Line feeds are generally line level, Iain.

The mic/line preamp on this console, like most, has a gain adjustment
from -20 to +60. 0dB is marked 0.775V Line. Then there are another
six switch positions (MIC) to +60. There is also a trim +/- 10dB.
So mics at all levels and lines feed up to +20 can be used, as on most
large music desks. Neve did something very similar.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...Neve1073LB.jpg

Are you just reassuring yourself, Iain? You are the one who offered the
explanation of the lack of phantom on those channels being because they
were used as line inputs only.

No I am pointing out that the same Mic/Line modules
can and are used for microphones or line level inputs,
something of which you did not seem aware.

My thoughts on the lack of phantom on four channel
were simply that - thoughts, and in no way does it
detract from the versatility of this fine console. It did
occur to me that perhaps the four channels were used
for original 47s and 50s permanently set up say for
strings, using their own psu's.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/iain.churches...NeumannM50+PSU

Who knows?

Then stop things while you re-configure everything for the next bit.

Naturally. You can't record vocals, brass or strings in a rhythm
section set up.

Back to these tiny studios you are familiar with.

No. That's standard practice everywhere, and the
bigger the studio the longer it takes.
Studio bookings always allow for
take down and reset as needed.

Repatching the console, or resetting the
automation is quickly done, but resetting
a studio layout from say ten brass to thirty string
players takes time and has to be done properly.
Everyone ( with the possible exception of your
goodself:-) understands this.

Iain