On 27/12/17 12:30, D.M. Procida wrote:
And it's much easier to lead
someone up the garden path if they have a little technical understanding
than if they have none.
Bull**** Baffles Brains.

The whole remoaner thing really.

--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/12/17 12:30, D.M. Procida wrote:
And it's much easier to lead someone up the garden path if they have
a little technical understanding than if they have none.
Bull**** Baffles Brains.

The whole remoaner thing really.

Really does make me laugh. The likes of Turnip applying reality to the
claims of Brexiteers. Which are all pure speculation until after we leave.

Unlike remaining, which is the status quo.

So in Hi-Fi terms, Turnip must be all in favour of Russ Andrew type
extravagant claims, as they *might* be true.

Just proves that 'philosophers' seem incapable of logical thought...

--
*Eschew obfuscation *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 26 Dec 2017 21:42:34 +0000, Roger Hayter wrote:

ARW wrote:

On 26/12/2017 09:58, Huge wrote:
On 2017-12-26, Brian Gaff wrote:
Is this Uncle Russ Andrews wearing his Santa Disguise?
Brian

Yes.

It's utter ****, of course.


I went to wire a boiler up for the sort of ****** that buys this sort
of stuff.

Two massive speakers in the lounge and in the garage at the other side
of the lounge wall was a roll of speaker wire from one of the speakers
wrapped around the fuse box.

It was explained to me that "This was to keep both lengths of speaker
wire the same as it sounds better".


The next time I work for such a ****** I shall offer "the same cable
length at the roomstat" as an optional extra for £100. I have no doubt
they will pay for it once I have explained to them how "the induction
current due to having a longer switched live than neutral cable at the
stat may alter the hysteresis operation of the room stat and reduce
it's performance".

Of course I'll stick on my magic meter to show this working (well a
mutlimeter) but I think that they will happily cough up an extra £100
for a much better wired roomstat.


I think I'd tend to make both speaker leads about the same length.
Propagation delay is obviouslly irrelevant, signal amplitude difference
well down in the noise, but the different effective output impedance of
the amplifier *might* affect the damping and therefore amplitude and
phase of the frequency response of the speaker in an audible way.
Probably not, but I would anyway.

There's no *might* about it, it'll make feck all difference to the
damping (assuming you're not using bell wire with a difference in length
of 25 metres or more).

An amp that has an output impedance of 20 milli-ohms claiming to offer a
damping factor of 400:1 with 8 ohm speakers will in fact only offer a
damping factor of about 1.07 with most infinite baffle drive units since
a typical voice coil driven cone drive unit of 8 ohms nominal impedance
will typically have a voice coil resistance of about 7.5 ohms which is in
series with the amp's output impedance as far as any "damping factor"
calculation is concerned.

Any audible differences due to unequal lengths of speaker cable will be
more a case of attenuation than one of different damping factors. The
sage advice offered in reputable Hi-Fi mags half a century ago for those
concerned about loudspeaker wiring was to invest in multi-stranded cooker
cable (multi-stranded purely to alleviate the issue of physical
stiffness). The advice, though over-kill in most cases, was perfectly
sound and remains so to this day.

--
Johnny B Good

Johnny B Good wrote:

--------------------


Any audible differences due to unequal lengths of speaker cable will be
more a case of attenuation than one of different damping factors.


** Correct, but differences in attenuation ( L compared to R) tend to offset the central image from a stereo pair of speakers PLUS the attenuation is likely to be more at high frequencies than low, particularly if the cable is long (10m) and made from figure 8 or twin lead.

To a good approximation, 10m of twin lead has 0.4ohms resistance and 20uH of inductance - amounting to *2.5 ohms* of impedance at 20kHz. Keeping speaker runs close to the same length is not BAD advice and sometimes having a large difference IS quite audible in that the speaker on the longer run sounds a bit dull.

FYI:

My stereo power amp sits on the floor, smack in the middle of the two speakers with identical runs of cable, each about 4m, with the excess loosely coiled.



..... Phil

















sage advice offered in reputable Hi-Fi mags half a century ago for those
concerned about loudspeaker wiring was to invest in multi-stranded cooker
cable (multi-stranded purely to alleviate the issue of physical
stiffness). The advice, though over-kill in most cases, was perfectly
sound and remains so to this day.

--
Johnny B Good

On Wed, 27 Dec 2017 22:52:59 -0800, Phil Allison wrote:

Johnny B Good wrote:

--------------------


Any audible differences due to unequal lengths of speaker cable will be
more a case of attenuation than one of different damping factors.


** Correct, but differences in attenuation ( L compared to R) tend to
offset the central image from a stereo pair of speakers PLUS the
attenuation is likely to be more at high frequencies than low,
particularly if the cable is long (10m) and made from figure 8 or twin
lead.

To a good approximation, 10m of twin lead has 0.4ohms resistance and
20uH of inductance - amounting to *2.5 ohms* of impedance at 20kHz.
Keeping speaker runs close to the same length is not BAD advice and
sometimes having a large difference IS quite audible in that the speaker
on the longer run sounds a bit dull.

I wasn't suggesting that keeping speaker cables equal in length wasn't a
good thing to do, just trying to explain why people were over-thinking
its effect on the issue of "Damping".

Since it became apparent that exactly how "damping" is supposed to work
was being misunderstood, I felt impelled to apply an equal and opposite
level of "over-thinking" in my explanation of why the issue of unequal
speaker cable lengths was less to do with "damping" and more to do with
attenuation.


FYI:

My stereo power amp sits on the floor, smack in the middle of the two
speakers with identical runs of cable, each about 4m, with the excess
loosely coiled.


I've always regarded the use of equal length speaker cables as a
desirable thing, especially after going to the trouble of using 24 pair
telephone cable wired up to parallel all 24 pairs to create a low loss,
low impedance balanced feeder (circa 25 ohms, assuming 600 ohm balanced
pairs) some three or more decades ago when I did give a **** about these
things.

Regardless of the quality of cable used, it's always a good idea to use
equal lengths, especially in the case of cheap 'bell-wire' (preferably of
less than 3 or 4 metre lengths) for exactly the reasons you expounded.
The poorly understood issue of amplifier damping is, in this case, just a
red herring.

--
Johnny B Good

On 27/12/2017 08:52, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Woody
wrote:

"ARW" wrote in message
news
On 26/12/2017 09:58, Huge wrote:
On 2017-12-26, Brian Gaff wrote:
Is this Uncle Russ Andrews wearing his Santa Disguise?
Â* Brian

Yes.

It's utter ****, of course.


I went to wire a boiler up for the sort of ****** that buys this sort
of stuff.

Two massive speakers in the lounge and in the garage at the other
side of the lounge wall was a roll of speaker wire from one of the
speakers wrapped around the fuse box.

It was explained to me that "This was to keep both lengths of speaker
wire the same as it sounds better".


The next time I work for such a ****** I shall offer "the same cable
length at the roomstat" as an optional extra for £100. I have no
doubt they will pay for it once I have explained to them how "the
induction current due to having a longer switched live than neutral
cable at the stat may alter the hysteresis operation of the room stat
and reduce it's performance".

Of course I'll stick on my magic meter to show this working (well a
mutlimeter) but I think that they will happily cough up an extra £100
for a much better wired roomstat.



I remember the start of this crap over 40 years ago.

A that thime Litz wire was very popular for various 'sound'
improvements. It was reported in ISTR HFN that a Frenchman had gone on
record that by using Litz wire between the front doorbell push and the
bell itself significantly improvedÂ* the "tintinabular sonority" or the
bell when it rang.

Tintin probably sums it up.

But he was Belgian, not French, surely ?.

On Tue, 26 Dec 2017 15:38:15 -0000
"Woody" wrote:

The one that gets me is the phrase

"integrity of the electricity"

What the h*ll does that mean?

Indeed - if your amp's power supply doesn't filter out spurious
harmonics then the connection between it and the noisy mains supply
isn't going to make much difference. I looked for "April 1" on that
page, but as usual with these audiophool sites I failed to find it.

Johnny B Good wrote:

---------------------


An amp that has an output impedance of 20 milli-ohms claiming to offer a
damping factor of 400:1 with 8 ohm speakers will in fact only offer a
damping factor of about 1.07 with most infinite baffle drive units since
a typical voice coil driven cone drive unit of 8 ohms nominal impedance
will typically have a voice coil resistance of about 7.5 ohms which is in
series with the amp's output impedance as far as any "damping factor"
calculation is concerned.


** AFAIK the term "damping factor" was invented by an American audio reviewer in the early 1960s. Back then tube amps dominated and makers liked to quote the output impedance tested at 1kHz, for some odd reason.

The reviewer decided to divide the rated load impedance ( usually 8 ohms) by the specified output Z and came up with a neat number as a sort of amplifier figure of merit. Unfortunately it caught on, grew legs and became one of the biggest myths in all audio.

In the 60s, the better tube amps had DFs of 10 to 20 and this was considered very adequate. By the 70s, when SS amps had taken over, numbers in the hundreds were common and so became the norm.

How all this affected the performance of actual woofers was never part of the game - cos more is better and sells stuff.



..... Phil







Any audible differences due to unequal lengths of speaker cable will be
more a case of attenuation than one of different damping factors. The
sage advice offered in reputable Hi-Fi mags half a century ago for those
concerned about loudspeaker wiring was to invest in multi-stranded cooker
cable (multi-stranded purely to alleviate the issue of physical
stiffness). The advice, though over-kill in most cases, was perfectly
sound and remains so to this day.

--
Johnny B Good