People who spend tens of thousands on 'high-end' stuff like to buy
equipment that makes jitter audiable, so that their expensive CD
player sounds different than a cheap one and they can feel superior.
A well designed DAC should not do this.

Something to do with better kit does a better job of showing up flaws,
hence, really good kit sounds crap? ;-)

In many places better equipment should show the flaws, for example a good
quality TFT monitor shows mpeg arifacts on DVDs that aren't obvious on a
normal TV.
But designing the equipment specially so that imperfections stand out is a
different thing altogether.

I was wondering if coax is susceptible to electronic noise. I notice
that my
player has a phono socket for the coax output - is a standard phono cable
okay for this?

Likely be fine, although technically it should be 75ohm coax, like TV
aerial cable. I wouldn't worry about noise, coax is pretty good at
rejecting it and we're talking about tiny bandwidth.

Indeed. Get a few reviews, avoid the idiot high end and you'll be
fine.

I'll see if I can sort out a short list of stuff that goes for under
200. I
see there are a few units that go for as little as 50-75 quid.


--
Jim H jh
@333
.org

"Wally" wrote in message
...
just me wrote:

In fact, my choice would be to look for an Arcam Black Box 500 which
you should be able to pick up for £200. Leaving aside the flexible
connectivity (which you might never use) it sounds bloody marvellous.
I use it with DAB & MD and soon Freeview, although not with CD
(prefer the sound of the 8000CD's in-built DAC, but that wont really
be an issue for you). I would also keep an eye out for the Alchemist
TS-D1 or TS-D2. The latter, in particular, was a terrific upgrade and
they are both quite compact.

Duly noted for the short list / price check.

How good, or not, is DAB through the external DAC?

It's a comparative thing. The DAC on my DAB tuner (Sony STD777es) sounds
inferior then when compared with the sound whilst connected through the DAC
of the Arcam Black Box 500. I would assume that lesser DAB tuners would also
benefit in this manner. Yes the bitrate of the transmission has a large
bearing on the sound, but then so does the DAC. When I buy a new Freeview
box with digital output next month I should benefit from the superior
bitrates seemingly available via this platform with some broadcasts.

Hence, I don't use the external DAC with my CD player which, to my ears, has
a superior DAC built-in.

Now say 100 times:
"My dapper Dad's damn DAB DAC doesn't do DAT justice."

"Wally" wrote in message
...
just me wrote:

In fact, my choice would be to look for an Arcam Black Box 500 which
you should be able to pick up for £200. Leaving aside the flexible
connectivity (which you might never use) it sounds bloody marvellous.
I use it with DAB & MD and soon Freeview, although not with CD
(prefer the sound of the 8000CD's in-built DAC, but that wont really
be an issue for you). I would also keep an eye out for the Alchemist
TS-D1 or TS-D2. The latter, in particular, was a terrific upgrade and
they are both quite compact.

Duly noted for the short list / price check.

How good, or not, is DAB through the external DAC?

It's a comparative thing. The DAC on my DAB tuner (Sony STD777es) sounds
inferior then when compared with the sound whilst connected through the DAC
of the Arcam Black Box 500. I would assume that lesser DAB tuners would also
benefit in this manner. Yes the bitrate of the transmission has a large
bearing on the sound, but then so does the DAC. When I buy a new Freeview
box with digital output next month I should benefit from the superior
bitrates seemingly available via this platform with some broadcasts.

Hence, I don't use the external DAC with my CD player which, to my ears, has
a superior DAC built-in.

Now say 100 times:
"My dapper Dad's damn DAB DAC doesn't do DAT justice."

In article , just me
writes

"Wally" wrote in message
...
just me wrote:

In fact, my choice would be to look for an Arcam Black Box 500 which
you should be able to pick up for £200. Leaving aside the flexible
connectivity (which you might never use) it sounds bloody marvellous.
I use it with DAB & MD and soon Freeview, although not with CD
(prefer the sound of the 8000CD's in-built DAC, but that wont really
be an issue for you). I would also keep an eye out for the Alchemist
TS-D1 or TS-D2. The latter, in particular, was a terrific upgrade and
they are both quite compact.

Duly noted for the short list / price check.

How good, or not, is DAB through the external DAC?

It's a comparative thing. The DAC on my DAB tuner (Sony STD777es)
sounds
inferior then when compared with the sound whilst connected through the
DAC
of the Arcam Black Box 500. I would assume that lesser DAB tuners would
also
benefit in this manner. Yes the bitrate of the transmission has a large
bearing on the sound, but then so does the DAC. When I buy a new
Freeview
box with digital output next month I should benefit from the superior
bitrates seemingly available via this platform with some broadcasts.

Yes better, but NICAM and FM still sound better.....

Hence, I don't use the external DAC with my CD player which, to my ears, has
a superior DAC built-in.

Now say 100 times:
"My dapper Dad's damn DAB DAC doesn't do DAT justice."



--
Tony Sayer

In article , just me
writes

"Wally" wrote in message
...
just me wrote:

In fact, my choice would be to look for an Arcam Black Box 500 which
you should be able to pick up for £200. Leaving aside the flexible
connectivity (which you might never use) it sounds bloody marvellous.
I use it with DAB & MD and soon Freeview, although not with CD
(prefer the sound of the 8000CD's in-built DAC, but that wont really
be an issue for you). I would also keep an eye out for the Alchemist
TS-D1 or TS-D2. The latter, in particular, was a terrific upgrade and
they are both quite compact.

Duly noted for the short list / price check.

How good, or not, is DAB through the external DAC?

It's a comparative thing. The DAC on my DAB tuner (Sony STD777es)
sounds
inferior then when compared with the sound whilst connected through the
DAC
of the Arcam Black Box 500. I would assume that lesser DAB tuners would
also
benefit in this manner. Yes the bitrate of the transmission has a large
bearing on the sound, but then so does the DAC. When I buy a new
Freeview
box with digital output next month I should benefit from the superior
bitrates seemingly available via this platform with some broadcasts.

Yes better, but NICAM and FM still sound better.....

Hence, I don't use the external DAC with my CD player which, to my ears, has
a superior DAC built-in.

Now say 100 times:
"My dapper Dad's damn DAB DAC doesn't do DAT justice."



--
Tony Sayer

Jim Lesurf wrote:

Afraid I don't know anything about the DVD/CD player you have, so
can't really comment on it as such...

Silver-fronted jobbie. Asda were flogging them for £100 a few months ago.
Last seen at 70 quid before disappearing.


If there is a serious problem with the transport, then it may be
losing data. Having a nicer DAC isn't likely to help with that.

However if the problem is that the DACs and following analogue
circuits in you player are poor, then an external DAC may improve
things. Can't say for sure as I don't know anything about your player.

I don't think it's losing data, but then I don't know what that sounds like.
There's no scratchy/jumpy digital noise, it just sounds dull, soft, mushy,
indistinct compared to my mate's Arcam.


FWIW I have a cheap DVD/VHS combo. I use this with a Meridian 263
DAC. The results from the Meridian seem to me to be audibly much
better than via the DVD player's own analogue output. They also
measure very differently, with the Meridian having much lower levels
of noise, hum, etc.

Hence you may find that an external DAC improves the sound, but it is
hard to predict this, so you'd have to try it to decide.

Assuming that the data stream is okay, I'd imagine that almost any external
DAC would be an improvement. The difference between my player and the Arcam
was big. It occurs to me, though, that some of the cheaper DACs on eBay
might be quite early models (late 80s, early 90s, perhaps). How would these
typically compare with modern mass-market domestic kit?


FWIW I'd recommend considering Meridian DACs like the 263 and 563.
These sound fine to me, and seem to work very well in my experience
with a wide range of sources.

How would you rate them against the Meridian 203? Is there a particular spec
of DAC that's worth looking out for, like that oversampling stuff?


However they are stereo only, so not
suitable if you require multichannel surround sound from DVD's.

Stereo's fine - not into all that surround sound stuff. DVD playback is very
rare. I bought the player because the previous cheapie packed in - the new
one was chosen mainly because it had digital out (for putting stuff on
minidisk).


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)

Jim Lesurf wrote:

Afraid I don't know anything about the DVD/CD player you have, so
can't really comment on it as such...

Silver-fronted jobbie. Asda were flogging them for £100 a few months ago.
Last seen at 70 quid before disappearing.


If there is a serious problem with the transport, then it may be
losing data. Having a nicer DAC isn't likely to help with that.

However if the problem is that the DACs and following analogue
circuits in you player are poor, then an external DAC may improve
things. Can't say for sure as I don't know anything about your player.

I don't think it's losing data, but then I don't know what that sounds like.
There's no scratchy/jumpy digital noise, it just sounds dull, soft, mushy,
indistinct compared to my mate's Arcam.


FWIW I have a cheap DVD/VHS combo. I use this with a Meridian 263
DAC. The results from the Meridian seem to me to be audibly much
better than via the DVD player's own analogue output. They also
measure very differently, with the Meridian having much lower levels
of noise, hum, etc.

Hence you may find that an external DAC improves the sound, but it is
hard to predict this, so you'd have to try it to decide.

Assuming that the data stream is okay, I'd imagine that almost any external
DAC would be an improvement. The difference between my player and the Arcam
was big. It occurs to me, though, that some of the cheaper DACs on eBay
might be quite early models (late 80s, early 90s, perhaps). How would these
typically compare with modern mass-market domestic kit?


FWIW I'd recommend considering Meridian DACs like the 263 and 563.
These sound fine to me, and seem to work very well in my experience
with a wide range of sources.

How would you rate them against the Meridian 203? Is there a particular spec
of DAC that's worth looking out for, like that oversampling stuff?


However they are stereo only, so not
suitable if you require multichannel surround sound from DVD's.

Stereo's fine - not into all that surround sound stuff. DVD playback is very
rare. I bought the player because the previous cheapie packed in - the new
one was chosen mainly because it had digital out (for putting stuff on
minidisk).


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)

Jim Lesurf wrote:

The standard domestic links (coax and optical) are 'one way' systems
with no backwards link. However provided that the transport and DAC
are working reasonably well, I'd say this does not really matter much.

Righto. If it's not a 'neccessary' thing, then that's fine.


Something to do with better kit does a better job of showing up
flaws, hence, really good kit sounds crap? ;-)

I'm not stepping into that one... :-)

I'm sure an oscilloscope is a much cheaper approach... ;-)


In principle, coax may pick up electronics noise, and might provide an
unintended path for something like an earth loop. In practice, I
can't say I've ever noticed any difference between coax S/PDIF and
optical. They both work fine in my experience. Co-ax has the
advantage of being cheap and easy to make up yourself.

I already have an optical interconnect for punting stuff to a portable
minidisk recorder, so I'd probably give that a go first. The DACs I've seen
for sale all look to have both coax and optical, so it's not like there's a
potential cost saving to be had by going after something without one or
other connection type.


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)

Jim Lesurf wrote:

The standard domestic links (coax and optical) are 'one way' systems
with no backwards link. However provided that the transport and DAC
are working reasonably well, I'd say this does not really matter much.

Righto. If it's not a 'neccessary' thing, then that's fine.


Something to do with better kit does a better job of showing up
flaws, hence, really good kit sounds crap? ;-)

I'm not stepping into that one... :-)

I'm sure an oscilloscope is a much cheaper approach... ;-)


In principle, coax may pick up electronics noise, and might provide an
unintended path for something like an earth loop. In practice, I
can't say I've ever noticed any difference between coax S/PDIF and
optical. They both work fine in my experience. Co-ax has the
advantage of being cheap and easy to make up yourself.

I already have an optical interconnect for punting stuff to a portable
minidisk recorder, so I'd probably give that a go first. The DACs I've seen
for sale all look to have both coax and optical, so it's not like there's a
potential cost saving to be had by going after something without one or
other connection type.


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)

Jim H wrote:

But designing the equipment specially so that imperfections stand out
is a different thing altogether.

I would agree, although I'm not sure how that would be done - isn't that
just a natural result of better fidelity?


Likely be fine, although technically it should be 75ohm coax, like TV
aerial cable. I wouldn't worry about noise, coax is pretty good at
rejecting it and we're talking about tiny bandwidth.

Quite. I'll keep the 75 ohm requrement in mind.


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)