Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

A mate brought his Arcam CD player (8 or 9, I think) round for a listen last
night, and (as expected) it showed up my cheapie Schneider DVD/CD wossname.
Much better clarity and definition, I thought. The bass especially was a
huge improvement.

Then I realised that the Schneider has digital outputs - coax and optical -
and wondered if it's feasible to connect a DAC to these and maybe approach
the sort of sound produced by the Arcam. A quick look in eBay indicates that
there's a fair selection up to about £200.

Is this worth considering, or will the transport in the Schneider have a
deletrious effect in spite of whatever improvements a DAC wold bring? It
strikes me that the cheapest DVD/CD drive can deliver error-free digital
data to a computer, so one would think that a cheap transport in a CD player
is capable of similar. If it is worth considering, what makes/models of DAC
should I look at that would match the Arcam's level of fidelity?


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

In article , Wally
wrote:
A mate brought his Arcam CD player (8 or 9, I think) round for a listen
last night, and (as expected) it showed up my cheapie Schneider DVD/CD
wossname. Much better clarity and definition, I thought. The bass
especially was a huge improvement.

Afraid I don't know anything about the DVD/CD player you have, so can't
really comment on it as such...

Then I realised that the Schneider has digital outputs - coax and
optical - and wondered if it's feasible to connect a DAC to these and
maybe approach the sort of sound produced by the Arcam. A quick look in
eBay indicates that there's a fair selection up to about £200.

Is this worth considering, or will the transport in the Schneider have a
deletrious effect in spite of whatever improvements a DAC wold bring?

Depends. :-)

If there is a serious problem with the transport, then it may be losing
data. Having a nicer DAC isn't likely to help with that.

However if the problem is that the DACs and following analogue circuits in
you player are poor, then an external DAC may improve things. Can't say for
sure as I don't know anything about your player.

FWIW I have a cheap DVD/VHS combo. I use this with a Meridian 263 DAC.
The results from the Meridian seem to me to be audibly much better than via
the DVD player's own analogue output. They also measure very differently,
with the Meridian having much lower levels of noise, hum, etc.

Hence you may find that an external DAC improves the sound, but it is hard
to predict this, so you'd have to try it to decide.

FWIW I'd recommend considering Meridian DACs like the 263 and 563. These
sound fine to me, and seem to work very well in my experience with a wide
range of sources. However they are stereo only, so not suitable if you
require multichannel surround sound from DVD's.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

In article , Wally
wrote:
A mate brought his Arcam CD player (8 or 9, I think) round for a listen
last night, and (as expected) it showed up my cheapie Schneider DVD/CD
wossname. Much better clarity and definition, I thought. The bass
especially was a huge improvement.

Afraid I don't know anything about the DVD/CD player you have, so can't
really comment on it as such...

Then I realised that the Schneider has digital outputs - coax and
optical - and wondered if it's feasible to connect a DAC to these and
maybe approach the sort of sound produced by the Arcam. A quick look in
eBay indicates that there's a fair selection up to about £200.

Is this worth considering, or will the transport in the Schneider have a
deletrious effect in spite of whatever improvements a DAC wold bring?

Depends. :-)

If there is a serious problem with the transport, then it may be losing
data. Having a nicer DAC isn't likely to help with that.

However if the problem is that the DACs and following analogue circuits in
you player are poor, then an external DAC may improve things. Can't say for
sure as I don't know anything about your player.

FWIW I have a cheap DVD/VHS combo. I use this with a Meridian 263 DAC.
The results from the Meridian seem to me to be audibly much better than via
the DVD player's own analogue output. They also measure very differently,
with the Meridian having much lower levels of noise, hum, etc.

Hence you may find that an external DAC improves the sound, but it is hard
to predict this, so you'd have to try it to decide.

FWIW I'd recommend considering Meridian DACs like the 263 and 563. These
sound fine to me, and seem to work very well in my experience with a wide
range of sources. However they are stereo only, so not suitable if you
require multichannel surround sound from DVD's.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 13:38:26 GMT, Wally wrote:

Exactly. Providing it isn't broken, a cheap CD player should sound just as
good going into a good quality DAC as an expensive player with the same
DAC, otherwise it wouldn't pass the redbook standard and coldn't display
the CD logo.

A lot of people here are sort-of against outboard DACs, but I disagree, at
least on economic terms. With 4 digital sources in my hifi, I would have
preffered if none of them came with DACs so I could put the saving into
one really.


A mate brought his Arcam CD player (8 or 9, I think) round for a listen
last
night, and (as expected) it showed up my cheapie Schneider DVD/CD
wossname.
Much better clarity and definition, I thought. The bass especially was a
huge improvement.

Then I realised that the Schneider has digital outputs - coax and
optical -
and wondered if it's feasible to connect a DAC to these and maybe
approach
the sort of sound produced by the Arcam. A quick look in eBay indicates
that
there's a fair selection up to about £200.

Is this worth considering, or will the transport in the Schneider have a
deletrious effect in spite of whatever improvements a DAC wold bring? It
strikes me that the cheapest DVD/CD drive can deliver error-free digital
data to a computer, so one would think that a cheap transport in a CD
player
is capable of similar. If it is worth considering, what makes/models of
DAC
should I look at that would match the Arcam's level of fidelity?


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)






--
Jim H jh
@333
.org

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 13:38:26 GMT, Wally wrote:

Exactly. Providing it isn't broken, a cheap CD player should sound just as
good going into a good quality DAC as an expensive player with the same
DAC, otherwise it wouldn't pass the redbook standard and coldn't display
the CD logo.

A lot of people here are sort-of against outboard DACs, but I disagree, at
least on economic terms. With 4 digital sources in my hifi, I would have
preffered if none of them came with DACs so I could put the saving into
one really.


A mate brought his Arcam CD player (8 or 9, I think) round for a listen
last
night, and (as expected) it showed up my cheapie Schneider DVD/CD
wossname.
Much better clarity and definition, I thought. The bass especially was a
huge improvement.

Then I realised that the Schneider has digital outputs - coax and
optical -
and wondered if it's feasible to connect a DAC to these and maybe
approach
the sort of sound produced by the Arcam. A quick look in eBay indicates
that
there's a fair selection up to about £200.

Is this worth considering, or will the transport in the Schneider have a
deletrious effect in spite of whatever improvements a DAC wold bring? It
strikes me that the cheapest DVD/CD drive can deliver error-free digital
data to a computer, so one would think that a cheap transport in a CD
player
is capable of similar. If it is worth considering, what makes/models of
DAC
should I look at that would match the Arcam's level of fidelity?


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)






--
Jim H jh
@333
.org

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

"Jim H" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 13:38:26 GMT, Wally wrote:

Exactly. Providing it isn't broken, a cheap CD player should sound just as
good going into a good quality DAC as an expensive player with the same
DAC, otherwise it wouldn't pass the redbook standard and coldn't display
the CD logo.

A lot of people here are sort-of against outboard DACs, but I disagree, at
least on economic terms. With 4 digital sources in my hifi, I would have
preffered if none of them came with DACs so I could put the saving into
one really.


A mate brought his Arcam CD player (8 or 9, I think) round for a listen
last
night, and (as expected) it showed up my cheapie Schneider DVD/CD
wossname.
Much better clarity and definition, I thought. The bass especially was a
huge improvement.

Then I realised that the Schneider has digital outputs - coax and
optical -
and wondered if it's feasible to connect a DAC to these and maybe
approach
the sort of sound produced by the Arcam. A quick look in eBay indicates
that
there's a fair selection up to about £200.

Is this worth considering, or will the transport in the Schneider have a
deletrious effect in spite of whatever improvements a DAC wold bring? It
strikes me that the cheapest DVD/CD drive can deliver error-free digital
data to a computer, so one would think that a cheap transport in a CD
player
is capable of similar. If it is worth considering, what makes/models of
DAC
should I look at that would match the Arcam's level of fidelity?

In fact, my choice would be to look for an Arcam Black Box 500 which you
should be able to pick up for £200. Leaving aside the flexible connectivity
(which you might never use) it sounds bloody marvellous. I use it with DAB &
MD and soon Freeview, although not with CD (prefer the sound of the 8000CD's
in-built DAC, but that wont really be an issue for you). I would also keep
an eye out for the Alchemist TS-D1 or TS-D2. The latter, in particular, was
a terrific upgrade and they are both quite compact.

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

"Jim H" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 13:38:26 GMT, Wally wrote:

Exactly. Providing it isn't broken, a cheap CD player should sound just as
good going into a good quality DAC as an expensive player with the same
DAC, otherwise it wouldn't pass the redbook standard and coldn't display
the CD logo.

A lot of people here are sort-of against outboard DACs, but I disagree, at
least on economic terms. With 4 digital sources in my hifi, I would have
preffered if none of them came with DACs so I could put the saving into
one really.


A mate brought his Arcam CD player (8 or 9, I think) round for a listen
last
night, and (as expected) it showed up my cheapie Schneider DVD/CD
wossname.
Much better clarity and definition, I thought. The bass especially was a
huge improvement.

Then I realised that the Schneider has digital outputs - coax and
optical -
and wondered if it's feasible to connect a DAC to these and maybe
approach
the sort of sound produced by the Arcam. A quick look in eBay indicates
that
there's a fair selection up to about £200.

Is this worth considering, or will the transport in the Schneider have a
deletrious effect in spite of whatever improvements a DAC wold bring? It
strikes me that the cheapest DVD/CD drive can deliver error-free digital
data to a computer, so one would think that a cheap transport in a CD
player
is capable of similar. If it is worth considering, what makes/models of
DAC
should I look at that would match the Arcam's level of fidelity?

In fact, my choice would be to look for an Arcam Black Box 500 which you
should be able to pick up for £200. Leaving aside the flexible connectivity
(which you might never use) it sounds bloody marvellous. I use it with DAB &
MD and soon Freeview, although not with CD (prefer the sound of the 8000CD's
in-built DAC, but that wont really be an issue for you). I would also keep
an eye out for the Alchemist TS-D1 or TS-D2. The latter, in particular, was
a terrific upgrade and they are both quite compact.

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

Jim H wrote:

Exactly. Providing it isn't broken, a cheap CD player should sound
just as good going into a good quality DAC as an expensive player
with the same DAC, otherwise it wouldn't pass the redbook standard
and coldn't display the CD logo.

This is good to hear. Would I be right in thinking that an optical input
makes a given DAC more expensive? Are there sonic reasons to choose one
connection type over the other?


A lot of people here are sort-of against outboard DACs, but I
disagree, at least on economic terms. With 4 digital sources in my
hifi, I would have preffered if none of them came with DACs so I
could put the saving into one really.

I was quite surprised at the range on eBay going for what looked liked very
sensible money (looked at the completed items to get an idea of final
prices).


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

Jim H wrote:

Exactly. Providing it isn't broken, a cheap CD player should sound
just as good going into a good quality DAC as an expensive player
with the same DAC, otherwise it wouldn't pass the redbook standard
and coldn't display the CD logo.

This is good to hear. Would I be right in thinking that an optical input
makes a given DAC more expensive? Are there sonic reasons to choose one
connection type over the other?


A lot of people here are sort-of against outboard DACs, but I
disagree, at least on economic terms. With 4 digital sources in my
hifi, I would have preffered if none of them came with DACs so I
could put the saving into one really.

I was quite surprised at the range on eBay going for what looked liked very
sensible money (looked at the completed items to get an idea of final
prices).


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 15:34:29 GMT, Wally wrote:

Jim H wrote:

Exactly. Providing it isn't broken, a cheap CD player should sound
just as good going into a good quality DAC as an expensive player
with the same DAC, otherwise it wouldn't pass the redbook standard
and coldn't display the CD logo.

I suppose when I said this I should have mentioned jitter, however it's
very unlikely to be a problem with a half decent DAC, we're talking very
low data rates here.

People who spend tens of thousands on 'high-end' stuff like to buy
equipment that makes jitter audiable, so that their expensive CD player
sounds different than a cheap one and they can feel superior. A well
designed DAC should not do this.

This is good to hear. Would I be right in thinking that an optical input
makes a given DAC more expensive? Are there sonic reasons to choose one
connection type over the other?

Not really. Go for whatever is most convenient, most likely coax.
Cable worshipers may disagree, but round here interconnects are a way of
getting signal from A to B, there are those who claim different metals or
optical fibers in digital interconnects change the sound
:-D

A lot of people here are sort-of against outboard DACs, but I
disagree, at least on economic terms. With 4 digital sources in my
hifi, I would have preffered if none of them came with DACs so I
could put the saving into one really.

Btw, I ment to type "really good DAC"

I was quite surprised at the range on eBay going for what looked liked
very
sensible money (looked at the completed items to get an idea of final
prices).

Indeed. Get a few reviews, avoid the idiot high end and you'll be fine.

--
Jim H jh
@333
.org

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 15:34:29 GMT, Wally wrote:

Jim H wrote:

Exactly. Providing it isn't broken, a cheap CD player should sound
just as good going into a good quality DAC as an expensive player
with the same DAC, otherwise it wouldn't pass the redbook standard
and coldn't display the CD logo.

I suppose when I said this I should have mentioned jitter, however it's
very unlikely to be a problem with a half decent DAC, we're talking very
low data rates here.

People who spend tens of thousands on 'high-end' stuff like to buy
equipment that makes jitter audiable, so that their expensive CD player
sounds different than a cheap one and they can feel superior. A well
designed DAC should not do this.

This is good to hear. Would I be right in thinking that an optical input
makes a given DAC more expensive? Are there sonic reasons to choose one
connection type over the other?

Not really. Go for whatever is most convenient, most likely coax.
Cable worshipers may disagree, but round here interconnects are a way of
getting signal from A to B, there are those who claim different metals or
optical fibers in digital interconnects change the sound
:-D

A lot of people here are sort-of against outboard DACs, but I
disagree, at least on economic terms. With 4 digital sources in my
hifi, I would have preffered if none of them came with DACs so I
could put the saving into one really.

Btw, I ment to type "really good DAC"

I was quite surprised at the range on eBay going for what looked liked
very
sensible money (looked at the completed items to get an idea of final
prices).

Indeed. Get a few reviews, avoid the idiot high end and you'll be fine.

--
Jim H jh
@333
.org

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

Jim H wrote:

I suppose when I said this I should have mentioned jitter, however
it's very unlikely to be a problem with a half decent DAC, we're
talking very low data rates here.

I've seen mention of some sort of timing signal being fed back to the
transport, something to do with jitter, but I don't know how neccessary it
is. I don't get the impression that it's a universal feature.


People who spend tens of thousands on 'high-end' stuff like to buy
equipment that makes jitter audiable, so that their expensive CD
player sounds different than a cheap one and they can feel superior.
A well designed DAC should not do this.

Something to do with better kit does a better job of showing up flaws,
hence, really good kit sounds crap? ;-)


Not really. Go for whatever is most convenient, most likely coax.
Cable worshipers may disagree, but round here interconnects are a way
of getting signal from A to B,

I was wondering if coax is susceptible to electronic noise. I notice that my
player has a phono socket for the coax output - is a standard phono cable
okay for this?


there are those who claim different
metals or optical fibers in digital interconnects change the sound
:-D

I hear they're born every minute. ;-)


Btw, I ment to type "really good DAC"

NP - I got the idea.


Indeed. Get a few reviews, avoid the idiot high end and you'll be
fine.

I'll see if I can sort out a short list of stuff that goes for under 200. I
see there are a few units that go for as little as 50-75 quid.


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

Jim H wrote:

I suppose when I said this I should have mentioned jitter, however
it's very unlikely to be a problem with a half decent DAC, we're
talking very low data rates here.

I've seen mention of some sort of timing signal being fed back to the
transport, something to do with jitter, but I don't know how neccessary it
is. I don't get the impression that it's a universal feature.


People who spend tens of thousands on 'high-end' stuff like to buy
equipment that makes jitter audiable, so that their expensive CD
player sounds different than a cheap one and they can feel superior.
A well designed DAC should not do this.

Something to do with better kit does a better job of showing up flaws,
hence, really good kit sounds crap? ;-)


Not really. Go for whatever is most convenient, most likely coax.
Cable worshipers may disagree, but round here interconnects are a way
of getting signal from A to B,

I was wondering if coax is susceptible to electronic noise. I notice that my
player has a phono socket for the coax output - is a standard phono cable
okay for this?


there are those who claim different
metals or optical fibers in digital interconnects change the sound
:-D

I hear they're born every minute. ;-)


Btw, I ment to type "really good DAC"

NP - I got the idea.


Indeed. Get a few reviews, avoid the idiot high end and you'll be
fine.

I'll see if I can sort out a short list of stuff that goes for under 200. I
see there are a few units that go for as little as 50-75 quid.


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

just me wrote:

In fact, my choice would be to look for an Arcam Black Box 500 which
you should be able to pick up for £200. Leaving aside the flexible
connectivity (which you might never use) it sounds bloody marvellous.
I use it with DAB & MD and soon Freeview, although not with CD
(prefer the sound of the 8000CD's in-built DAC, but that wont really
be an issue for you). I would also keep an eye out for the Alchemist
TS-D1 or TS-D2. The latter, in particular, was a terrific upgrade and
they are both quite compact.

Duly noted for the short list / price check.

How good, or not, is DAB through the external DAC?


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

just me wrote:

In fact, my choice would be to look for an Arcam Black Box 500 which
you should be able to pick up for £200. Leaving aside the flexible
connectivity (which you might never use) it sounds bloody marvellous.
I use it with DAB & MD and soon Freeview, although not with CD
(prefer the sound of the 8000CD's in-built DAC, but that wont really
be an issue for you). I would also keep an eye out for the Alchemist
TS-D1 or TS-D2. The latter, in particular, was a terrific upgrade and
they are both quite compact.

Duly noted for the short list / price check.

How good, or not, is DAB through the external DAC?


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 17:53:14 GMT, Wally wrote:

just me wrote:

In fact, my choice would be to look for an Arcam Black Box 500 which
you should be able to pick up for £200. Leaving aside the flexible
connectivity (which you might never use) it sounds bloody marvellous.
I use it with DAB & MD and soon Freeview, although not with CD
(prefer the sound of the 8000CD's in-built DAC, but that wont really
be an issue for you). I would also keep an eye out for the Alchemist
TS-D1 or TS-D2. The latter, in particular, was a terrific upgrade and
they are both quite compact.

Duly noted for the short list / price check.

How good, or not, is DAB through the external DAC?

The limiting factor is usually bitrate, not the DAC, so still worse than
FM.

--
Jim H jh
@333
.org

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 17:53:14 GMT, Wally wrote:

just me wrote:

In fact, my choice would be to look for an Arcam Black Box 500 which
you should be able to pick up for £200. Leaving aside the flexible
connectivity (which you might never use) it sounds bloody marvellous.
I use it with DAB & MD and soon Freeview, although not with CD
(prefer the sound of the 8000CD's in-built DAC, but that wont really
be an issue for you). I would also keep an eye out for the Alchemist
TS-D1 or TS-D2. The latter, in particular, was a terrific upgrade and
they are both quite compact.

Duly noted for the short list / price check.

How good, or not, is DAB through the external DAC?

The limiting factor is usually bitrate, not the DAC, so still worse than
FM.

--
Jim H jh
@333
.org

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

In article , Wally
wrote:
Jim H wrote:

I suppose when I said this I should have mentioned jitter, however
it's very unlikely to be a problem with a half decent DAC, we're
talking very low data rates here.

I've seen mention of some sort of timing signal being fed back to the
transport, something to do with jitter, but I don't know how neccessary
it is. I don't get the impression that it's a universal feature.

The standard domestic links (coax and optical) are 'one way' systems with
no backwards link. However provided that the transport and DAC are working
reasonably well, I'd say this does not really matter much.


People who spend tens of thousands on 'high-end' stuff like to buy
equipment that makes jitter audiable, so that their expensive CD
player sounds different than a cheap one and they can feel superior. A
well designed DAC should not do this.

Something to do with better kit does a better job of showing up flaws,
hence, really good kit sounds crap? ;-)

I'm not stepping into that one... :-)

Not really. Go for whatever is most convenient, most likely coax.
Cable worshipers may disagree, but round here interconnects are a way
of getting signal from A to B,

I was wondering if coax is susceptible to electronic noise. I notice
that my player has a phono socket for the coax output - is a standard
phono cable okay for this?

In principle, coax may pick up electronics noise, and might provide an
unintended path for something like an earth loop. In practice, I can't say
I've ever noticed any difference between coax S/PDIF and optical. They both
work fine in my experience. Co-ax has the advantage of being cheap and easy
to make up yourself.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

In article , Wally
wrote:
Jim H wrote:

I suppose when I said this I should have mentioned jitter, however
it's very unlikely to be a problem with a half decent DAC, we're
talking very low data rates here.

I've seen mention of some sort of timing signal being fed back to the
transport, something to do with jitter, but I don't know how neccessary
it is. I don't get the impression that it's a universal feature.

The standard domestic links (coax and optical) are 'one way' systems with
no backwards link. However provided that the transport and DAC are working
reasonably well, I'd say this does not really matter much.


People who spend tens of thousands on 'high-end' stuff like to buy
equipment that makes jitter audiable, so that their expensive CD
player sounds different than a cheap one and they can feel superior. A
well designed DAC should not do this.

Something to do with better kit does a better job of showing up flaws,
hence, really good kit sounds crap? ;-)

I'm not stepping into that one... :-)

Not really. Go for whatever is most convenient, most likely coax.
Cable worshipers may disagree, but round here interconnects are a way
of getting signal from A to B,

I was wondering if coax is susceptible to electronic noise. I notice
that my player has a phono socket for the coax output - is a standard
phono cable okay for this?

In principle, coax may pick up electronics noise, and might provide an
unintended path for something like an earth loop. In practice, I can't say
I've ever noticed any difference between coax S/PDIF and optical. They both
work fine in my experience. Co-ax has the advantage of being cheap and easy
to make up yourself.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

People who spend tens of thousands on 'high-end' stuff like to buy
equipment that makes jitter audiable, so that their expensive CD
player sounds different than a cheap one and they can feel superior.
A well designed DAC should not do this.

Something to do with better kit does a better job of showing up flaws,
hence, really good kit sounds crap? ;-)

In many places better equipment should show the flaws, for example a good
quality TFT monitor shows mpeg arifacts on DVDs that aren't obvious on a
normal TV.
But designing the equipment specially so that imperfections stand out is a
different thing altogether.

I was wondering if coax is susceptible to electronic noise. I notice
that my
player has a phono socket for the coax output - is a standard phono cable
okay for this?

Likely be fine, although technically it should be 75ohm coax, like TV
aerial cable. I wouldn't worry about noise, coax is pretty good at
rejecting it and we're talking about tiny bandwidth.

Indeed. Get a few reviews, avoid the idiot high end and you'll be
fine.

I'll see if I can sort out a short list of stuff that goes for under
200. I
see there are a few units that go for as little as 50-75 quid.


--
Jim H jh
@333
.org

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

People who spend tens of thousands on 'high-end' stuff like to buy
equipment that makes jitter audiable, so that their expensive CD
player sounds different than a cheap one and they can feel superior.
A well designed DAC should not do this.

Something to do with better kit does a better job of showing up flaws,
hence, really good kit sounds crap? ;-)

In many places better equipment should show the flaws, for example a good
quality TFT monitor shows mpeg arifacts on DVDs that aren't obvious on a
normal TV.
But designing the equipment specially so that imperfections stand out is a
different thing altogether.

I was wondering if coax is susceptible to electronic noise. I notice
that my
player has a phono socket for the coax output - is a standard phono cable
okay for this?

Likely be fine, although technically it should be 75ohm coax, like TV
aerial cable. I wouldn't worry about noise, coax is pretty good at
rejecting it and we're talking about tiny bandwidth.

Indeed. Get a few reviews, avoid the idiot high end and you'll be
fine.

I'll see if I can sort out a short list of stuff that goes for under
200. I
see there are a few units that go for as little as 50-75 quid.


--
Jim H jh
@333
.org

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

"Wally" wrote in message
...
just me wrote:

In fact, my choice would be to look for an Arcam Black Box 500 which
you should be able to pick up for £200. Leaving aside the flexible
connectivity (which you might never use) it sounds bloody marvellous.
I use it with DAB & MD and soon Freeview, although not with CD
(prefer the sound of the 8000CD's in-built DAC, but that wont really
be an issue for you). I would also keep an eye out for the Alchemist
TS-D1 or TS-D2. The latter, in particular, was a terrific upgrade and
they are both quite compact.

Duly noted for the short list / price check.

How good, or not, is DAB through the external DAC?

It's a comparative thing. The DAC on my DAB tuner (Sony STD777es) sounds
inferior then when compared with the sound whilst connected through the DAC
of the Arcam Black Box 500. I would assume that lesser DAB tuners would also
benefit in this manner. Yes the bitrate of the transmission has a large
bearing on the sound, but then so does the DAC. When I buy a new Freeview
box with digital output next month I should benefit from the superior
bitrates seemingly available via this platform with some broadcasts.

Hence, I don't use the external DAC with my CD player which, to my ears, has
a superior DAC built-in.

Now say 100 times:
"My dapper Dad's damn DAB DAC doesn't do DAT justice."

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

"Wally" wrote in message
...
just me wrote:

In fact, my choice would be to look for an Arcam Black Box 500 which
you should be able to pick up for £200. Leaving aside the flexible
connectivity (which you might never use) it sounds bloody marvellous.
I use it with DAB & MD and soon Freeview, although not with CD
(prefer the sound of the 8000CD's in-built DAC, but that wont really
be an issue for you). I would also keep an eye out for the Alchemist
TS-D1 or TS-D2. The latter, in particular, was a terrific upgrade and
they are both quite compact.

Duly noted for the short list / price check.

How good, or not, is DAB through the external DAC?

It's a comparative thing. The DAC on my DAB tuner (Sony STD777es) sounds
inferior then when compared with the sound whilst connected through the DAC
of the Arcam Black Box 500. I would assume that lesser DAB tuners would also
benefit in this manner. Yes the bitrate of the transmission has a large
bearing on the sound, but then so does the DAC. When I buy a new Freeview
box with digital output next month I should benefit from the superior
bitrates seemingly available via this platform with some broadcasts.

Hence, I don't use the external DAC with my CD player which, to my ears, has
a superior DAC built-in.

Now say 100 times:
"My dapper Dad's damn DAB DAC doesn't do DAT justice."

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

In article , just me
writes

"Wally" wrote in message
...
just me wrote:

In fact, my choice would be to look for an Arcam Black Box 500 which
you should be able to pick up for £200. Leaving aside the flexible
connectivity (which you might never use) it sounds bloody marvellous.
I use it with DAB & MD and soon Freeview, although not with CD
(prefer the sound of the 8000CD's in-built DAC, but that wont really
be an issue for you). I would also keep an eye out for the Alchemist
TS-D1 or TS-D2. The latter, in particular, was a terrific upgrade and
they are both quite compact.

Duly noted for the short list / price check.

How good, or not, is DAB through the external DAC?

It's a comparative thing. The DAC on my DAB tuner (Sony STD777es)
sounds
inferior then when compared with the sound whilst connected through the
DAC
of the Arcam Black Box 500. I would assume that lesser DAB tuners would
also
benefit in this manner. Yes the bitrate of the transmission has a large
bearing on the sound, but then so does the DAC. When I buy a new
Freeview
box with digital output next month I should benefit from the superior
bitrates seemingly available via this platform with some broadcasts.

Yes better, but NICAM and FM still sound better.....

Hence, I don't use the external DAC with my CD player which, to my ears, has
a superior DAC built-in.

Now say 100 times:
"My dapper Dad's damn DAB DAC doesn't do DAT justice."



--
Tony Sayer

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

In article , just me
writes

"Wally" wrote in message
...
just me wrote:

In fact, my choice would be to look for an Arcam Black Box 500 which
you should be able to pick up for £200. Leaving aside the flexible
connectivity (which you might never use) it sounds bloody marvellous.
I use it with DAB & MD and soon Freeview, although not with CD
(prefer the sound of the 8000CD's in-built DAC, but that wont really
be an issue for you). I would also keep an eye out for the Alchemist
TS-D1 or TS-D2. The latter, in particular, was a terrific upgrade and
they are both quite compact.

Duly noted for the short list / price check.

How good, or not, is DAB through the external DAC?

It's a comparative thing. The DAC on my DAB tuner (Sony STD777es)
sounds
inferior then when compared with the sound whilst connected through the
DAC
of the Arcam Black Box 500. I would assume that lesser DAB tuners would
also
benefit in this manner. Yes the bitrate of the transmission has a large
bearing on the sound, but then so does the DAC. When I buy a new
Freeview
box with digital output next month I should benefit from the superior
bitrates seemingly available via this platform with some broadcasts.

Yes better, but NICAM and FM still sound better.....

Hence, I don't use the external DAC with my CD player which, to my ears, has
a superior DAC built-in.

Now say 100 times:
"My dapper Dad's damn DAB DAC doesn't do DAT justice."



--
Tony Sayer

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:

Afraid I don't know anything about the DVD/CD player you have, so
can't really comment on it as such...

Silver-fronted jobbie. Asda were flogging them for £100 a few months ago.
Last seen at 70 quid before disappearing.


If there is a serious problem with the transport, then it may be
losing data. Having a nicer DAC isn't likely to help with that.

However if the problem is that the DACs and following analogue
circuits in you player are poor, then an external DAC may improve
things. Can't say for sure as I don't know anything about your player.

I don't think it's losing data, but then I don't know what that sounds like.
There's no scratchy/jumpy digital noise, it just sounds dull, soft, mushy,
indistinct compared to my mate's Arcam.


FWIW I have a cheap DVD/VHS combo. I use this with a Meridian 263
DAC. The results from the Meridian seem to me to be audibly much
better than via the DVD player's own analogue output. They also
measure very differently, with the Meridian having much lower levels
of noise, hum, etc.

Hence you may find that an external DAC improves the sound, but it is
hard to predict this, so you'd have to try it to decide.

Assuming that the data stream is okay, I'd imagine that almost any external
DAC would be an improvement. The difference between my player and the Arcam
was big. It occurs to me, though, that some of the cheaper DACs on eBay
might be quite early models (late 80s, early 90s, perhaps). How would these
typically compare with modern mass-market domestic kit?


FWIW I'd recommend considering Meridian DACs like the 263 and 563.
These sound fine to me, and seem to work very well in my experience
with a wide range of sources.

How would you rate them against the Meridian 203? Is there a particular spec
of DAC that's worth looking out for, like that oversampling stuff?


However they are stereo only, so not
suitable if you require multichannel surround sound from DVD's.

Stereo's fine - not into all that surround sound stuff. DVD playback is very
rare. I bought the player because the previous cheapie packed in - the new
one was chosen mainly because it had digital out (for putting stuff on
minidisk).


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:

Afraid I don't know anything about the DVD/CD player you have, so
can't really comment on it as such...

Silver-fronted jobbie. Asda were flogging them for £100 a few months ago.
Last seen at 70 quid before disappearing.


If there is a serious problem with the transport, then it may be
losing data. Having a nicer DAC isn't likely to help with that.

However if the problem is that the DACs and following analogue
circuits in you player are poor, then an external DAC may improve
things. Can't say for sure as I don't know anything about your player.

I don't think it's losing data, but then I don't know what that sounds like.
There's no scratchy/jumpy digital noise, it just sounds dull, soft, mushy,
indistinct compared to my mate's Arcam.


FWIW I have a cheap DVD/VHS combo. I use this with a Meridian 263
DAC. The results from the Meridian seem to me to be audibly much
better than via the DVD player's own analogue output. They also
measure very differently, with the Meridian having much lower levels
of noise, hum, etc.

Hence you may find that an external DAC improves the sound, but it is
hard to predict this, so you'd have to try it to decide.

Assuming that the data stream is okay, I'd imagine that almost any external
DAC would be an improvement. The difference between my player and the Arcam
was big. It occurs to me, though, that some of the cheaper DACs on eBay
might be quite early models (late 80s, early 90s, perhaps). How would these
typically compare with modern mass-market domestic kit?


FWIW I'd recommend considering Meridian DACs like the 263 and 563.
These sound fine to me, and seem to work very well in my experience
with a wide range of sources.

How would you rate them against the Meridian 203? Is there a particular spec
of DAC that's worth looking out for, like that oversampling stuff?


However they are stereo only, so not
suitable if you require multichannel surround sound from DVD's.

Stereo's fine - not into all that surround sound stuff. DVD playback is very
rare. I bought the player because the previous cheapie packed in - the new
one was chosen mainly because it had digital out (for putting stuff on
minidisk).


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:

The standard domestic links (coax and optical) are 'one way' systems
with no backwards link. However provided that the transport and DAC
are working reasonably well, I'd say this does not really matter much.

Righto. If it's not a 'neccessary' thing, then that's fine.


Something to do with better kit does a better job of showing up
flaws, hence, really good kit sounds crap? ;-)

I'm not stepping into that one... :-)

I'm sure an oscilloscope is a much cheaper approach... ;-)


In principle, coax may pick up electronics noise, and might provide an
unintended path for something like an earth loop. In practice, I
can't say I've ever noticed any difference between coax S/PDIF and
optical. They both work fine in my experience. Co-ax has the
advantage of being cheap and easy to make up yourself.

I already have an optical interconnect for punting stuff to a portable
minidisk recorder, so I'd probably give that a go first. The DACs I've seen
for sale all look to have both coax and optical, so it's not like there's a
potential cost saving to be had by going after something without one or
other connection type.


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:

The standard domestic links (coax and optical) are 'one way' systems
with no backwards link. However provided that the transport and DAC
are working reasonably well, I'd say this does not really matter much.

Righto. If it's not a 'neccessary' thing, then that's fine.


Something to do with better kit does a better job of showing up
flaws, hence, really good kit sounds crap? ;-)

I'm not stepping into that one... :-)

I'm sure an oscilloscope is a much cheaper approach... ;-)


In principle, coax may pick up electronics noise, and might provide an
unintended path for something like an earth loop. In practice, I
can't say I've ever noticed any difference between coax S/PDIF and
optical. They both work fine in my experience. Co-ax has the
advantage of being cheap and easy to make up yourself.

I already have an optical interconnect for punting stuff to a portable
minidisk recorder, so I'd probably give that a go first. The DACs I've seen
for sale all look to have both coax and optical, so it's not like there's a
potential cost saving to be had by going after something without one or
other connection type.


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

Jim H wrote:

But designing the equipment specially so that imperfections stand out
is a different thing altogether.

I would agree, although I'm not sure how that would be done - isn't that
just a natural result of better fidelity?


Likely be fine, although technically it should be 75ohm coax, like TV
aerial cable. I wouldn't worry about noise, coax is pretty good at
rejecting it and we're talking about tiny bandwidth.

Quite. I'll keep the 75 ohm requrement in mind.


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

Jim H wrote:

But designing the equipment specially so that imperfections stand out
is a different thing altogether.

I would agree, although I'm not sure how that would be done - isn't that
just a natural result of better fidelity?


Likely be fine, although technically it should be 75ohm coax, like TV
aerial cable. I wouldn't worry about noise, coax is pretty good at
rejecting it and we're talking about tiny bandwidth.

Quite. I'll keep the 75 ohm requrement in mind.


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

Jim H wrote:

How good, or not, is DAB through the external DAC?

The limiting factor is usually bitrate, not the DAC, so still worse
than FM.

Audibly, what differences are there between DAB and FM? I'm not a critical
FM listener (mainly because my tuner isn't exciting), so I'm wondering how
DAB would fare for background stuff.


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

Jim H wrote:

How good, or not, is DAB through the external DAC?

The limiting factor is usually bitrate, not the DAC, so still worse
than FM.

Audibly, what differences are there between DAB and FM? I'm not a critical
FM listener (mainly because my tuner isn't exciting), so I'm wondering how
DAB would fare for background stuff.


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:23:04 GMT, Wally wrote:

Audibly, what differences are there between DAB and FM? I'm not a
critical
FM listener (mainly because my tuner isn't exciting), so I'm wondering
how
DAB would fare for background stuff.

Think cassette vs 48k mp3.

--
Jim H jh
@333
.org

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:23:04 GMT, Wally wrote:

Audibly, what differences are there between DAB and FM? I'm not a
critical
FM listener (mainly because my tuner isn't exciting), so I'm wondering
how
DAB would fare for background stuff.

Think cassette vs 48k mp3.

--
Jim H jh
@333
.org

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

In article , Wally
wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:

If there is a serious problem with the transport, then it may be
losing data. Having a nicer DAC isn't likely to help with that.


I don't think it's losing data, but then I don't know what that sounds
like. There's no scratchy/jumpy digital noise, it just sounds dull,
soft, mushy, indistinct compared to my mate's Arcam.

The sound of 'lost data' depends upon the details, and the DAC. :-)

The clearest example I've had of this was some PDO Cds that had the 'brown
rot' problem a few years ago. This eventually caused them to misbehave.
Listened to via the Meridian 263 DAC, the loss produced rough swishing
sounds like bursts of noise. Listened to on a Quad 67 the sound just got
very vague and dull. (This was using the Meridian DAC outboard from the
Quad, so reading the same data/errors in each case.) The Quad seems to try
and 'hide' serious losses by smoothing them over when the meridian seems to
decide "bugger it! I'd better let them hear this isn't right!" :-)

Pay yer money and take yer choice on which approach you'd prefer... ;-

Assuming that the data stream is okay, I'd imagine that almost any
external DAC would be an improvement. The difference between my player
and the Arcam was big. It occurs to me, though, that some of the cheaper
DACs on eBay might be quite early models (late 80s, early 90s, perhaps).
How would these typically compare with modern mass-market domestic kit?

Afraid I can't really say. In normal use, my experience is that DACs do not
often make large differences once the system is essentially decent.

FWIW I'd recommend considering Meridian DACs like the 263 and 563.
These sound fine to me, and seem to work very well in my experience
with a wide range of sources.

How would you rate them against the Meridian 203? Is there a particular
spec of DAC that's worth looking out for, like that oversampling stuff?

I should give a 'health warning' that reactions to this area seem to depend
upon personal preferences as well as the choice of source, etc. Hence you
might not share my own views. However that said...

Not heard a 203 in some time. However I decided once I'd heard it that the
263 was superb. It is my impression that the Meridian DACs seem to do a
particularly good job of latching onto external data steams and ignoring
imperfections like jitter. Works very nicely with DVD output at 48kHz,
despite nominally being intended for 44.1kHz.

I tend to be dubious of some of the claims made for 'upsampling'. etc. Most
DACs over/upsample in one way or another, so much of what you read in
magazines seems to me to be marketing re-arrangements of the deckchairs.

The advantage of the 563 over the 263 is that it has a wider choice of
input formats. Note though, that each DAC seems to have gone through
different 'versions'. The advantage of the 263 is that it is cheaper than
the 563. :-) However mine only has a co-ax input.

In general I tend to prefer classical music (and some acoustic jazz) to
rock or pop. For my taste the Meridian DACs seem excellent. Have a relaxed,
natural sound to my ears, and seem able with good material to give an
excellent stereo image. They also seem to be very well engineered. However
you may well find other DACs suit you (or the other items in your system)
better. My own impression is that once DACs are well made, their 'sounds'
become fairly similar, and any residual differences are tiny compared with
those between, say, loudspeakers.

However they are stereo only, so not
suitable if you require multichannel surround sound from DVD's.

Stereo's fine - not into all that surround sound stuff. DVD playback is
very rare. I bought the player because the previous cheapie packed in -
the new one was chosen mainly because it had digital out (for putting
stuff on minidisk).

I just set my DVD to output S/PDIF. This automatically gets the DVD player
to extract 'stereo' from film soundtracks that are Dolby x.1 surround, and
gives me the LPCM track if there is one.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

In article , Wally
wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:

If there is a serious problem with the transport, then it may be
losing data. Having a nicer DAC isn't likely to help with that.


I don't think it's losing data, but then I don't know what that sounds
like. There's no scratchy/jumpy digital noise, it just sounds dull,
soft, mushy, indistinct compared to my mate's Arcam.

The sound of 'lost data' depends upon the details, and the DAC. :-)

The clearest example I've had of this was some PDO Cds that had the 'brown
rot' problem a few years ago. This eventually caused them to misbehave.
Listened to via the Meridian 263 DAC, the loss produced rough swishing
sounds like bursts of noise. Listened to on a Quad 67 the sound just got
very vague and dull. (This was using the Meridian DAC outboard from the
Quad, so reading the same data/errors in each case.) The Quad seems to try
and 'hide' serious losses by smoothing them over when the meridian seems to
decide "bugger it! I'd better let them hear this isn't right!" :-)

Pay yer money and take yer choice on which approach you'd prefer... ;-

Assuming that the data stream is okay, I'd imagine that almost any
external DAC would be an improvement. The difference between my player
and the Arcam was big. It occurs to me, though, that some of the cheaper
DACs on eBay might be quite early models (late 80s, early 90s, perhaps).
How would these typically compare with modern mass-market domestic kit?

Afraid I can't really say. In normal use, my experience is that DACs do not
often make large differences once the system is essentially decent.

FWIW I'd recommend considering Meridian DACs like the 263 and 563.
These sound fine to me, and seem to work very well in my experience
with a wide range of sources.

How would you rate them against the Meridian 203? Is there a particular
spec of DAC that's worth looking out for, like that oversampling stuff?

I should give a 'health warning' that reactions to this area seem to depend
upon personal preferences as well as the choice of source, etc. Hence you
might not share my own views. However that said...

Not heard a 203 in some time. However I decided once I'd heard it that the
263 was superb. It is my impression that the Meridian DACs seem to do a
particularly good job of latching onto external data steams and ignoring
imperfections like jitter. Works very nicely with DVD output at 48kHz,
despite nominally being intended for 44.1kHz.

I tend to be dubious of some of the claims made for 'upsampling'. etc. Most
DACs over/upsample in one way or another, so much of what you read in
magazines seems to me to be marketing re-arrangements of the deckchairs.

The advantage of the 563 over the 263 is that it has a wider choice of
input formats. Note though, that each DAC seems to have gone through
different 'versions'. The advantage of the 263 is that it is cheaper than
the 563. :-) However mine only has a co-ax input.

In general I tend to prefer classical music (and some acoustic jazz) to
rock or pop. For my taste the Meridian DACs seem excellent. Have a relaxed,
natural sound to my ears, and seem able with good material to give an
excellent stereo image. They also seem to be very well engineered. However
you may well find other DACs suit you (or the other items in your system)
better. My own impression is that once DACs are well made, their 'sounds'
become fairly similar, and any residual differences are tiny compared with
those between, say, loudspeakers.

However they are stereo only, so not
suitable if you require multichannel surround sound from DVD's.

Stereo's fine - not into all that surround sound stuff. DVD playback is
very rare. I bought the player because the previous cheapie packed in -
the new one was chosen mainly because it had digital out (for putting
stuff on minidisk).

I just set my DVD to output S/PDIF. This automatically gets the DVD player
to extract 'stereo' from film soundtracks that are Dolby x.1 surround, and
gives me the LPCM track if there is one.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:08:21 GMT, "Wally" wrote:

Jim Lesurf wrote:

The standard domestic links (coax and optical) are 'one way' systems
with no backwards link. However provided that the transport and DAC
are working reasonably well, I'd say this does not really matter much.

Righto. If it's not a 'neccessary' thing, then that's fine.

Not 'necessary', but it does help an outboard DAC to approach the
quality of a one-box player. generally, much better to buy a better
player than to use an outboard DAC for CD replay.

Something to do with better kit does a better job of showing up
flaws, hence, really good kit sounds crap? ;-)

I'm not stepping into that one... :-)

I'm sure an oscilloscope is a much cheaper approach... ;-)

Actually, he's being coy. 'Better kit' in this case most certainly
does *not* include DACs which can't suppress jitter in the datastream,
but they certainly cost a lot of money, and they do sound bad! :-)

In principle, coax may pick up electronics noise, and might provide an
unintended path for something like an earth loop. In practice, I
can't say I've ever noticed any difference between coax S/PDIF and
optical. They both work fine in my experience. Co-ax has the
advantage of being cheap and easy to make up yourself.

I already have an optical interconnect for punting stuff to a portable
minidisk recorder, so I'd probably give that a go first. The DACs I've seen
for sale all look to have both coax and optical, so it's not like there's a
potential cost saving to be had by going after something without one or
other connection type.

As noted, try Meridian DACs - they sound good and they do a good job
of suppressing jitter. I'm not sure that you'll notice much difference
between the original 203 and the later models, as they always had the
engineering pretty well spot on.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 15:08:21 GMT, "Wally" wrote:

Jim Lesurf wrote:

The standard domestic links (coax and optical) are 'one way' systems
with no backwards link. However provided that the transport and DAC
are working reasonably well, I'd say this does not really matter much.

Righto. If it's not a 'neccessary' thing, then that's fine.

Not 'necessary', but it does help an outboard DAC to approach the
quality of a one-box player. generally, much better to buy a better
player than to use an outboard DAC for CD replay.

Something to do with better kit does a better job of showing up
flaws, hence, really good kit sounds crap? ;-)

I'm not stepping into that one... :-)

I'm sure an oscilloscope is a much cheaper approach... ;-)

Actually, he's being coy. 'Better kit' in this case most certainly
does *not* include DACs which can't suppress jitter in the datastream,
but they certainly cost a lot of money, and they do sound bad! :-)

In principle, coax may pick up electronics noise, and might provide an
unintended path for something like an earth loop. In practice, I
can't say I've ever noticed any difference between coax S/PDIF and
optical. They both work fine in my experience. Co-ax has the
advantage of being cheap and easy to make up yourself.

I already have an optical interconnect for punting stuff to a portable
minidisk recorder, so I'd probably give that a go first. The DACs I've seen
for sale all look to have both coax and optical, so it's not like there's a
potential cost saving to be had by going after something without one or
other connection type.

As noted, try Meridian DACs - they sound good and they do a good job
of suppressing jitter. I'm not sure that you'll notice much difference
between the original 203 and the later models, as they always had the
engineering pretty well spot on.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Add a DAC to a cheap CD player?
 

It's a comparative thing. The DAC on my DAB tuner (Sony STD777es)
sounds
inferior then when compared with the sound whilst connected through the
DAC
of the Arcam Black Box 500. I would assume that lesser DAB tuners would
also
benefit in this manner. Yes the bitrate of the transmission has a large
bearing on the sound, but then so does the DAC. When I buy a new
Freeview
box with digital output next month I should benefit from the superior
bitrates seemingly available via this platform with some broadcasts.

Yes better, but NICAM and FM still sound better.....

Not really relevant though. No UK radio transmissions employ NICAM (do they
elsewhere?) whilst the radio services offered via Freeview aren't available
on FM.

Now say 100 times:
"My dapper Dad's damn DAB DAC doesn't do DAT justice."

Didn't hear you saying it :o)