On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:59:05 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:

[1] This is a turn-around. She resisted having large speakers in the living
room for some time. Then a week or so ago she suddenly suggested we give it
a try. I think she has over time become accustomed to good sound, and hence
fallen victim - like myself - to the idea that the sound matters more than
the clutter. :-) The down-side is that I'll now have to buy another pair
of ESLs for the main hifi in the other room.

And two more surround, eventually. ;-)

Kal

Jim Lesurf wrote:

Ah, I see. How does one tell if one's absolute phase is correct?

Method A) Experiment and compare the two settings. If you can tell
the difference between phases, choose the one you prefer. If you
can't tell the difference, it doesn't matter. :-)

Method B) Check the units in your system to see if they end up
'inverting' the signal, then consider which setting might be best for
ensuring your system is non-inverting (including the speakers, of
course).

Of course, in each case you have no idea *what* the studio, etc, did
to the signal before it arrived in your home, and there is a good
chance that some instruments, etc, were 'inverted' some of the time
whilst others were not. Hence you might decide it is just another
button to play with. ;-

I suspect it is (I don't have one - Ian's Arcam DAC has it - I'm stuck with
banana plugs on the speaker cables). Still, the Alan Parsons test CD has a
clean, dry recording of a bass drum, so I might rip that track and burn
straight and inverted copies to a CD-R and see if there is a discernible
difference. I feel doubtful that it would have much effect on other sounds,
but it strikes me that bass drum might do, given that it's a very short
pulse which is quite possibly assymmetric.


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest addition: Early Works gallery

Jim Lesurf wrote:

Ah, I see. How does one tell if one's absolute phase is correct?

Method A) Experiment and compare the two settings. If you can tell
the difference between phases, choose the one you prefer. If you
can't tell the difference, it doesn't matter. :-)

Method B) Check the units in your system to see if they end up
'inverting' the signal, then consider which setting might be best for
ensuring your system is non-inverting (including the speakers, of
course).

Of course, in each case you have no idea *what* the studio, etc, did
to the signal before it arrived in your home, and there is a good
chance that some instruments, etc, were 'inverted' some of the time
whilst others were not. Hence you might decide it is just another
button to play with. ;-

I suspect it is (I don't have one - Ian's Arcam DAC has it - I'm stuck with
banana plugs on the speaker cables). Still, the Alan Parsons test CD has a
clean, dry recording of a bass drum, so I might rip that track and burn
straight and inverted copies to a CD-R and see if there is a discernible
difference. I feel doubtful that it would have much effect on other sounds,
but it strikes me that bass drum might do, given that it's a very short
pulse which is quite possibly assymmetric.


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest addition: Early Works gallery

Jim Lesurf wrote:

A bit like amplifiers, I suppose.

In my view, yes. However in both cases the user might *want* the
player or amp to alter the sound in a specific way as they may prefer
the sound that results. In this case 'better' may mean something that
does not approach the same common ground. Matter of personal choice
and circumstances.

I'd imagine that one would have to know the limitations of the other parts
of the system. That said, trying to find somethng that would compensate for
something like the dip in my speakers' bass response seems
counter-intuitive. On the one hand, it's 'correction' or 'equalisation', on
the other, it's 'two wrongs trying to make a right'. :-) I have to say that
I'm more attracted to the idea of building new bass cabs with a smoother
response.



Buy electrostatics. 8-]
Aren't they rather big?

No, no. Your room is too small. :-)

But, smaller speakers are cheaper than a bigger room... :-)


Having said that, yesterday I moved a pair of ESL63's into our living
room to try out with out TV/DVD system. This room is quite small, so
the speakers dominate the room. Placed either side of the TV, they
span about 90 percent of the width of the room, and the room is wider
than it is long.

Is there an ideal way to arrange speakers in a rectangular room
(hypothetically, at least)? Pointing down the long dimension or across the
width?


Despite that, SWMBO likes the appearance[1], and we both found the
sound on last night's broadcasts (BBC4) of Chopin and (BBC)
Nutcracker! to be superb. At last, pianos that sound like pianos when
we watch TV/DVD!!

AAMOI, what was the source for these? (I'm thinking of connecting my
Telewest digibox to the hifi for the purpose of listening to some classical
broadcasts in the hope of getting better sound than the tuner, but haven't
done so yet, due to having no preamp or switchbox - cable-swapping is a pain
and something I don't want to do too much.)


[1] This is a turn-around. She resisted having large speakers in the
living room for some time. Then a week or so ago she suddenly
suggested we give it a try. I think she has over time become
accustomed to good sound, and hence fallen victim - like myself - to
the idea that the sound matters more than the clutter. :-) The
down-side is that I'll now have to buy another pair of ESLs for the
main hifi in the other room.

I have large speakers *and* clutter. :-)


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest addition: Early Works gallery

Jim Lesurf wrote:

A bit like amplifiers, I suppose.

In my view, yes. However in both cases the user might *want* the
player or amp to alter the sound in a specific way as they may prefer
the sound that results. In this case 'better' may mean something that
does not approach the same common ground. Matter of personal choice
and circumstances.

I'd imagine that one would have to know the limitations of the other parts
of the system. That said, trying to find somethng that would compensate for
something like the dip in my speakers' bass response seems
counter-intuitive. On the one hand, it's 'correction' or 'equalisation', on
the other, it's 'two wrongs trying to make a right'. :-) I have to say that
I'm more attracted to the idea of building new bass cabs with a smoother
response.



Buy electrostatics. 8-]
Aren't they rather big?

No, no. Your room is too small. :-)

But, smaller speakers are cheaper than a bigger room... :-)


Having said that, yesterday I moved a pair of ESL63's into our living
room to try out with out TV/DVD system. This room is quite small, so
the speakers dominate the room. Placed either side of the TV, they
span about 90 percent of the width of the room, and the room is wider
than it is long.

Is there an ideal way to arrange speakers in a rectangular room
(hypothetically, at least)? Pointing down the long dimension or across the
width?


Despite that, SWMBO likes the appearance[1], and we both found the
sound on last night's broadcasts (BBC4) of Chopin and (BBC)
Nutcracker! to be superb. At last, pianos that sound like pianos when
we watch TV/DVD!!

AAMOI, what was the source for these? (I'm thinking of connecting my
Telewest digibox to the hifi for the purpose of listening to some classical
broadcasts in the hope of getting better sound than the tuner, but haven't
done so yet, due to having no preamp or switchbox - cable-swapping is a pain
and something I don't want to do too much.)


[1] This is a turn-around. She resisted having large speakers in the
living room for some time. Then a week or so ago she suddenly
suggested we give it a try. I think she has over time become
accustomed to good sound, and hence fallen victim - like myself - to
the idea that the sound matters more than the clutter. :-) The
down-side is that I'll now have to buy another pair of ESLs for the
main hifi in the other room.

I have large speakers *and* clutter. :-)


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest addition: Early Works gallery

In article , Kalman Rubinson
wrote:
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:59:05 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:

[1] This is a turn-around. She resisted having large speakers in the
living room for some time. Then a week or so ago she suddenly suggested
we give it a try. I think she has over time become accustomed to good
sound, and hence fallen victim - like myself - to the idea that the
sound matters more than the clutter. :-) The down-side is that I'll
now have to buy another pair of ESLs for the main hifi in the other
room.

And two more surround, eventually. ;-)

If I put *four* ESL63's in the living room we'd have no space left to sit
there in between them! :-) As it is, we struggled to fit in the Christmas
tree.

However the other room - which has the main hifi - is larger. Hence there
is a risk that in due course we will move the TV/DVD system into the 'hi
fi' room, and end up surrounded with speakers. :-) I doubt we'd go beyond
4.1 with ESL's, though. That said, I still have the LS3/5A's... :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

In article , Kalman Rubinson
wrote:
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:59:05 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:

[1] This is a turn-around. She resisted having large speakers in the
living room for some time. Then a week or so ago she suddenly suggested
we give it a try. I think she has over time become accustomed to good
sound, and hence fallen victim - like myself - to the idea that the
sound matters more than the clutter. :-) The down-side is that I'll
now have to buy another pair of ESLs for the main hifi in the other
room.

And two more surround, eventually. ;-)

If I put *four* ESL63's in the living room we'd have no space left to sit
there in between them! :-) As it is, we struggled to fit in the Christmas
tree.

However the other room - which has the main hifi - is larger. Hence there
is a risk that in due course we will move the TV/DVD system into the 'hi
fi' room, and end up surrounded with speakers. :-) I doubt we'd go beyond
4.1 with ESL's, though. That said, I still have the LS3/5A's... :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

In article , Wally
wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:

Having said that, yesterday I moved a pair of ESL63's into our living
room to try out with out TV/DVD system. This room is quite small, so
the speakers dominate the room. Placed either side of the TV, they
span about 90 percent of the width of the room, and the room is wider
than it is long.

Is there an ideal way to arrange speakers in a rectangular room
(hypothetically, at least)? Pointing down the long dimension or across
the width?

You will see various recipies for this. My own experience is that it is
very variable. Generally good to have speakers away from walls, and the
listening position away from walls. For good stereo, a more symmetric
arrangement can be desirable. Beyond that, it all becomes dependent upon
things like the directional behaviour of the speakers, effects of room
furnishings, etc. The best advice I can give is the obvious, "be prepared
to experiment". :-)

In general, firing along the longer dimension tends to give more scope for
having space behind the listening position. However factors like the above
and how the speaker's resonances relate to those of the room have an
effect.


Despite that, SWMBO likes the appearance[1], and we both found the
sound on last night's broadcasts (BBC4) of Chopin and (BBC)
Nutcracker! to be superb. At last, pianos that sound like pianos when
we watch TV/DVD!!

AAMOI, what was the source for these? (I'm thinking of connecting my
Telewest digibox to the hifi for the purpose of listening to some
classical broadcasts in the hope of getting better sound than the tuner,
but haven't done so yet, due to having no preamp or switchbox -
cable-swapping is a pain and something I don't want to do too much.)

In my case the TV sound is the S/PDIF coaxial output from a Nokia 221T
digital terrestrial TV receiver, into the Meridian 263 DAC. Then (at
present) a modified Quad 34 preamp, an Armstrong 700 power amp, and now
the ESL63's with a MJ Pro 50 sub to help with the lumpy bits. I may dump
the sub from this system. Not decided yet. It worked nicely with LS3/5A's,
but may be more hinderance than help with the ESL63's. Have to spend some
more time experimenting before I decide.

FWIW I just made up a small box with a cheap switch to allow me to have
a switchable input for the DAC. This means I can choose either the
output from the DVD player or from the Nokia. I made no attempt to
ensure the switchbox was 75 Ohm as I don't think this matters
much for domestic S/PDIF. The cables are CT100, though, and
nominally 75 Ohms.


I have large speakers *and* clutter. :-)

Snap. :-)

The good thing about clutter behind an ESL is that it helps to break up the
reflection from the rear radiation. ;-

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

In article , Wally
wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:

Having said that, yesterday I moved a pair of ESL63's into our living
room to try out with out TV/DVD system. This room is quite small, so
the speakers dominate the room. Placed either side of the TV, they
span about 90 percent of the width of the room, and the room is wider
than it is long.

Is there an ideal way to arrange speakers in a rectangular room
(hypothetically, at least)? Pointing down the long dimension or across
the width?

You will see various recipies for this. My own experience is that it is
very variable. Generally good to have speakers away from walls, and the
listening position away from walls. For good stereo, a more symmetric
arrangement can be desirable. Beyond that, it all becomes dependent upon
things like the directional behaviour of the speakers, effects of room
furnishings, etc. The best advice I can give is the obvious, "be prepared
to experiment". :-)

In general, firing along the longer dimension tends to give more scope for
having space behind the listening position. However factors like the above
and how the speaker's resonances relate to those of the room have an
effect.


Despite that, SWMBO likes the appearance[1], and we both found the
sound on last night's broadcasts (BBC4) of Chopin and (BBC)
Nutcracker! to be superb. At last, pianos that sound like pianos when
we watch TV/DVD!!

AAMOI, what was the source for these? (I'm thinking of connecting my
Telewest digibox to the hifi for the purpose of listening to some
classical broadcasts in the hope of getting better sound than the tuner,
but haven't done so yet, due to having no preamp or switchbox -
cable-swapping is a pain and something I don't want to do too much.)

In my case the TV sound is the S/PDIF coaxial output from a Nokia 221T
digital terrestrial TV receiver, into the Meridian 263 DAC. Then (at
present) a modified Quad 34 preamp, an Armstrong 700 power amp, and now
the ESL63's with a MJ Pro 50 sub to help with the lumpy bits. I may dump
the sub from this system. Not decided yet. It worked nicely with LS3/5A's,
but may be more hinderance than help with the ESL63's. Have to spend some
more time experimenting before I decide.

FWIW I just made up a small box with a cheap switch to allow me to have
a switchable input for the DAC. This means I can choose either the
output from the DVD player or from the Nokia. I made no attempt to
ensure the switchbox was 75 Ohm as I don't think this matters
much for domestic S/PDIF. The cables are CT100, though, and
nominally 75 Ohms.


I have large speakers *and* clutter. :-)

Snap. :-)

The good thing about clutter behind an ESL is that it helps to break up the
reflection from the rear radiation. ;-

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 09:10:41 -0500, Kalman Rubinson
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:59:05 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:

[1] This is a turn-around. She resisted having large speakers in the living
room for some time. Then a week or so ago she suddenly suggested we give it
a try. I think she has over time become accustomed to good sound, and hence
fallen victim - like myself - to the idea that the sound matters more than
the clutter. :-) The down-side is that I'll now have to buy another pair
of ESLs for the main hifi in the other room.

And two more surround, eventually. ;-)

I could possibly be persuaded to part with my Apogee Duetta Sigs and
their partnering Krell....................
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering