"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:35:59 +0000
Glenn Booth wrote:

and there you're dealing with imperfections in the materials. CMY
reflected *should* look identical to RGB transmitted, in theory (given
equal energy input)

No, they can't look identical, except in very particular circumstances,
because the gamuts are different. There are colours in the RGB colour
space that simply don't exist in the CMYK colour space,

Well, in that RGB are primary and CMY are secondary, and would all have different wavelengths, yes, thats true. But the human eye doesnt SEE CMY, it sees, nominally, R, G, and B. a yellow is seen as a low level of red and gree, which we ASSUME is yellow (which is why RGB works, its a trick).

The K in CMYK is only to make up for the fact that CMY inks arent perfect and dont make a good black when combined.

perfect inks and a perfect monitor will not have any colours that each cannot reproduce (as far as the eye is concerned).

Also, transmitted light gives an subjectively different appearance of
the same 'colours' from reflected light, due to the difference in
luminance transmission.

I did say under perfect circumstances...

Then add to the mix the difference between gammas

Gamma is irrelevant. all gamma is is a simple way of setting up look up
tables with a curve that can be expressed using one number. any lookup
table can be programmed with (or to compensate for) any gamma value.

No, gamma is vital. It's far from simple, as it is non-linear,

It may be non-linear but its still a simple curve.

Since graphics cards running in true colour don't use look up tables,

No, thats Directcolour. Truecolour has the same number of colours on the output and *DOES* have 8-bit lookup tables, one per colour component. Gamma (in truecolour modes) on many cards is programmed by writing an appropriate table to the LUT.

Then you need to take into account the non-linearity of a
CRT (or other display) and the reflectivity and colour of the individual
sheet of paper,

Of course you do. but I think this is gettnig needlessly picky considering what I was trying to use the analogy for.

besides, once you get into nonlinearity of the monitor etc. the whole idea of a simple curve like gamma is silly. Then you need to add the paper into the equation as well...

and the whole thing is a bag of worms. This is what I do for a living. If it was easy, I would be out of a job.

I meant it was a simple concept. The internal combustion engine is a simlpe concept but its still being perfected.

Actally a lot simpler than you let on too.

Ok. Want a job? :-)

Sure, I've always liked playing with ink and PCs ;-)

********. Ford produce over 24 different shades of white

No they dont. there is only one share of white. they probably dont
produce ANY whites ;-)

There is no 'real' shade of white, since colour is defined as being
perceptual (i.e. there is no 'colour' until light hits somebody's
retina, therefore it's totally personal). There are only colour
temperatures that are 'accepted' as being white in a particular colour
space, for a particular use.

Agreed ;-)

You're right though - Ford probably don't make any real whites.

Make precious few real cars too ;-)


--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:35:59 +0000
Glenn Booth wrote:

and there you're dealing with imperfections in the materials. CMY
reflected *should* look identical to RGB transmitted, in theory (given
equal energy input)

No, they can't look identical, except in very particular circumstances,
because the gamuts are different. There are colours in the RGB colour
space that simply don't exist in the CMYK colour space,

Well, in that RGB are primary and CMY are secondary, and would all have different wavelengths, yes, thats true. But the human eye doesnt SEE CMY, it sees, nominally, R, G, and B. a yellow is seen as a low level of red and gree, which we ASSUME is yellow (which is why RGB works, its a trick).

The K in CMYK is only to make up for the fact that CMY inks arent perfect and dont make a good black when combined.

perfect inks and a perfect monitor will not have any colours that each cannot reproduce (as far as the eye is concerned).

Also, transmitted light gives an subjectively different appearance of
the same 'colours' from reflected light, due to the difference in
luminance transmission.

I did say under perfect circumstances...

Then add to the mix the difference between gammas

Gamma is irrelevant. all gamma is is a simple way of setting up look up
tables with a curve that can be expressed using one number. any lookup
table can be programmed with (or to compensate for) any gamma value.

No, gamma is vital. It's far from simple, as it is non-linear,

It may be non-linear but its still a simple curve.

Since graphics cards running in true colour don't use look up tables,

No, thats Directcolour. Truecolour has the same number of colours on the output and *DOES* have 8-bit lookup tables, one per colour component. Gamma (in truecolour modes) on many cards is programmed by writing an appropriate table to the LUT.

Then you need to take into account the non-linearity of a
CRT (or other display) and the reflectivity and colour of the individual
sheet of paper,

Of course you do. but I think this is gettnig needlessly picky considering what I was trying to use the analogy for.

besides, once you get into nonlinearity of the monitor etc. the whole idea of a simple curve like gamma is silly. Then you need to add the paper into the equation as well...

and the whole thing is a bag of worms. This is what I do for a living. If it was easy, I would be out of a job.

I meant it was a simple concept. The internal combustion engine is a simlpe concept but its still being perfected.

Actally a lot simpler than you let on too.

Ok. Want a job? :-)

Sure, I've always liked playing with ink and PCs ;-)

********. Ford produce over 24 different shades of white

No they dont. there is only one share of white. they probably dont
produce ANY whites ;-)

There is no 'real' shade of white, since colour is defined as being
perceptual (i.e. there is no 'colour' until light hits somebody's
retina, therefore it's totally personal). There are only colour
temperatures that are 'accepted' as being white in a particular colour
space, for a particular use.

Agreed ;-)

You're right though - Ford probably don't make any real whites.

Make precious few real cars too ;-)


--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 03:28:01 -0000, "Wally"
wrote:

Kurt Hamster wrote:

So someone who spends money on a front end component when his speakers
are ****ed isn't one?

What's the First Principle of getting a bargain?

Listen a lot, read a lot, and buy seldom and carefully. Oh yes, and
always get the shop to throw in the cables free.



Yes, indeed, do your homework thoroughly first or expect to get poked.

Second Principle is always have the cash in yer hand (and no p/x) for the
best 'barrelhead' deal.....

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 03:28:01 -0000, "Wally"
wrote:

Kurt Hamster wrote:

So someone who spends money on a front end component when his speakers
are ****ed isn't one?

What's the First Principle of getting a bargain?

Listen a lot, read a lot, and buy seldom and carefully. Oh yes, and
always get the shop to throw in the cables free.



Yes, indeed, do your homework thoroughly first or expect to get poked.

Second Principle is always have the cash in yer hand (and no p/x) for the
best 'barrelhead' deal.....

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 19:10:30 +0000
Kurt Hamster wrote:

I'd say that you are the dumb one wasting time with pointless exercises
like DBT.

just for the record I have never done a DBT on my gear.



Don't worry about it - no normal bugger does. Simple blind tests are not
hard to arrange unless you are truly are a 'Johnny No-Mates'....


I can still hear which of my recordings are bad now my gear is better than
it was...


Yup, as can we all - it's just a question of how much we are going to let it
bother us.....

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 19:10:30 +0000
Kurt Hamster wrote:

I'd say that you are the dumb one wasting time with pointless exercises
like DBT.

just for the record I have never done a DBT on my gear.



Don't worry about it - no normal bugger does. Simple blind tests are not
hard to arrange unless you are truly are a 'Johnny No-Mates'....


I can still hear which of my recordings are bad now my gear is better than
it was...


Yup, as can we all - it's just a question of how much we are going to let it
bother us.....

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

"Wally" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

Can't beat Radio 4 on long wave for *that* (olde worlde) tone...

How's that happen - you reading my posts before I send 'em?

The olde worlde long wave tone sounds just like the valve radiograms that
were around when I was a kid. It's unmistakable, even on my reissue Bush
tranny (which probably does everything with a single IC).


I suspect I have the same one - in a wooden case. Love it for a 'silence
breaker', the news and summat tinkly when I'm doing Swim's sangies at 5.55
in the morning (every morning)! Had it for years and it's on all day when I
don't have my system on (like right now - I'm *supposed* to be cleaning a
carburettor out atm)!

:-)

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

"Wally" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

Can't beat Radio 4 on long wave for *that* (olde worlde) tone...

How's that happen - you reading my posts before I send 'em?

The olde worlde long wave tone sounds just like the valve radiograms that
were around when I was a kid. It's unmistakable, even on my reissue Bush
tranny (which probably does everything with a single IC).


I suspect I have the same one - in a wooden case. Love it for a 'silence
breaker', the news and summat tinkly when I'm doing Swim's sangies at 5.55
in the morning (every morning)! Had it for years and it's on all day when I
don't have my system on (like right now - I'm *supposed* to be cleaning a
carburettor out atm)!

:-)

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 02:25:17 -0000
"Keith G" wrote:

Why worry about the markings - do you really need to know where
Hilversum or
Luxembourg is on the dial? ;-)

its a BIG radio. like 50x35x40 sorta big. if it doesnt look good its not
going to be in the living space here.


OK, get onto http://www.bvws.org.uk/ and http://www.radiovs.co.uk/ and
http://www.vintage-radio.com/index.shtml then and get some wheels turning -
old valve radios expect and deserve to be looked after. (They are a slowly
diminishing global resource....) It won't cost anything to ask....


What then? (I'm just trying to get an idea of what makes you think valve
amps suffer from 'rosy glow' - it's a popular misconception perpetrated
by
people who a) never heard a decent valve amp, b) never heard a valve amp
in
their lives, c) got such a bug up their arse about valves that they get
all
bent out of shape about it....)

Lets just not assume I have c) ok?


Given.


people talk about the valve sound because it characterises the way most
valve amps sounded. If we were to talk about decent gear, there would be no
'valve sound' because it'd soud the same as SS gear. (ie. linear)

I like the way voices sound mellow and bassy on it.

Wiv you on this one!

I find higer pitched voices hard to listen to.

Yup, but I'm afraid it extends all the way into the whole SS/digital
thing
for me. Too stark and grating - knackers me out very quickly! (Which is
a
bitch because it don't make life any easier!)

So attenuate the treble a bit.


Naahh.....

(Haven't got a 'treble' anyway!)


for music though I like the clarity I get from a more linear system.

I go for 'tone' and 'warmth' -

But some music (all classical and a lot of other stuff) sounds better
without the 'warmth' and stuff. I like to listen to that without the added
distortion.


Hmmm, I find the valve sound (if you like) adds a great deal to the ambient
and lifelike qualities of the sound - very tactile, very 'there' (for thos
with 'accurist tendancies).

Consider these two entirely different forms of distortion - the close-up,
cosy, 'muffled' tone of an old Bogart movie and the 'cavernous', tinny sound
of a Bollywood movie (when they are dancing and singing those songs where
every word ends in 'air'). In your opinion, is the sound ruined in either
case?


now for voice stuff or 70's rock, I'm with you all the way...

I can and very often do listen to my gear all day long!

As do I.


Ain't hard to do, is it? :-)

(But I'll get the sack if I don't get off this keyboard soon....)

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 02:25:17 -0000
"Keith G" wrote:

Why worry about the markings - do you really need to know where
Hilversum or
Luxembourg is on the dial? ;-)

its a BIG radio. like 50x35x40 sorta big. if it doesnt look good its not
going to be in the living space here.


OK, get onto http://www.bvws.org.uk/ and http://www.radiovs.co.uk/ and
http://www.vintage-radio.com/index.shtml then and get some wheels turning -
old valve radios expect and deserve to be looked after. (They are a slowly
diminishing global resource....) It won't cost anything to ask....


What then? (I'm just trying to get an idea of what makes you think valve
amps suffer from 'rosy glow' - it's a popular misconception perpetrated
by
people who a) never heard a decent valve amp, b) never heard a valve amp
in
their lives, c) got such a bug up their arse about valves that they get
all
bent out of shape about it....)

Lets just not assume I have c) ok?


Given.


people talk about the valve sound because it characterises the way most
valve amps sounded. If we were to talk about decent gear, there would be no
'valve sound' because it'd soud the same as SS gear. (ie. linear)

I like the way voices sound mellow and bassy on it.

Wiv you on this one!

I find higer pitched voices hard to listen to.

Yup, but I'm afraid it extends all the way into the whole SS/digital
thing
for me. Too stark and grating - knackers me out very quickly! (Which is
a
bitch because it don't make life any easier!)

So attenuate the treble a bit.


Naahh.....

(Haven't got a 'treble' anyway!)


for music though I like the clarity I get from a more linear system.

I go for 'tone' and 'warmth' -

But some music (all classical and a lot of other stuff) sounds better
without the 'warmth' and stuff. I like to listen to that without the added
distortion.


Hmmm, I find the valve sound (if you like) adds a great deal to the ambient
and lifelike qualities of the sound - very tactile, very 'there' (for thos
with 'accurist tendancies).

Consider these two entirely different forms of distortion - the close-up,
cosy, 'muffled' tone of an old Bogart movie and the 'cavernous', tinny sound
of a Bollywood movie (when they are dancing and singing those songs where
every word ends in 'air'). In your opinion, is the sound ruined in either
case?


now for voice stuff or 70's rock, I'm with you all the way...

I can and very often do listen to my gear all day long!

As do I.


Ain't hard to do, is it? :-)

(But I'll get the sack if I don't get off this keyboard soon....)