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On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:50:59 +0100, "Roy" roy wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
.. .

Well, the double open diapason on the pedal organ is 32', whatever
that comes out at.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

The interval item on the organ renovation mentioned 64' pipes. I didn't
quite feel the earth move but it did sound jolly good to me.

Oh and I never realised before that "The Planets" contains a forearm cluster
on the organ (ooh err missus).

Roy.


Or that Henry Wood could have made such a cods of "improving" toccata
and fugue with an orchestra.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

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In article ,
Roy roy wrote:
Ah yes, I noticed a slight lack of lip synch in "The Music Makers"
between TV and FM which made it look like a Top of the Pops performance.


FM should be near as dammit 'live' although there will be some delay going
through the NICAM codecs used for sending to the transmitters.

TV, on the other hand, could be anything, depending on how many frame
stores etc it goes through on the way to the transmitter. And that's only
analogue TV. The TV sound *should* be delayed to match the picture.

Then, of course, some TV sets themselves delay the picture. Without
introducing a matching delay in the sound.

It's a minefield...

--
*A conscience is what hurts when all your other parts feel so good *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

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On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:12:23 +0100, Jim Lesurf
wrote:

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:


OK, the Beeb have pulled this one off big time. Fabulous imaging, and a
real sense of presence. If I have a slight criticism, it is that they
have left the hall out of the audio picture a bit. Come to think of it,
this is the Albert Hall, so again, well done Beeb!

Since last year's proms we have bought a DTTV box. Also 'rearranged' the
audio equipment so the TV/DVD system now uses the Quad 988's and a
subwoofer.

I liked the sound via DTTV, but had the impression that the stereo spread
was narrower for the Bach than later on. My only hesitation is that I must
admit not to being much of a fan for Slatkin. His conducting tends to me to
sound a bit 'soft and watercoloured' at times.

Slainte,

Jim

Stereo spread not wide enough? Must have been using the wrong speaker
cables, JIm ;-)

Seriously, though, I didn't notice that. Maybe I was too blown away by
being able to tell where things actually were in the orchestra just by
listening. I started off using my DTV box for sound, but switched to
my DAB tuner, because it seemed (sticking my neck out here) to have
more bass (despite being quieter). Mind you, it is a pretty horrible
Pace unit, which is now discontinued. No idea what the spec is,
though.

I was expecting the delays on sound and vision to be pretty much the
same, as they are both digital, but alas, the sound was still way
behind the vision. Didn't care, though - just enjoyed the evening.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

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In article , Mike Gilmour
wrote:



I wonder if that slight lack of lip sync between TV & FM is the same
all over the uk.. (any beeb techies?) Bit of a nuisance that, as there
are a few TV live broadcasts where I choose to use the radio commentary
- but that lack of lip sync scambles your brain

I don't know if this is the same across the UK, but here [1] the
difference in timings between analogue TV pictures and FM radio sound is
so large as to make the combination unbearable. (Digital TV is, of course.
even worse w.r.t. FM.)

This was one of the reasons I was pleased to get a DTTV box as the sound is
of good quality and reasonably in sync with vision.

Curiously, my recollection is that this wasn't a problem some years ago,
but has become so in recent years.

Slainte,

Jim

[1] Fife. Angus TX for TV. Forgotten where for FM.

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

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"Roy" roy wrote in message ...

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...

Well, the double open diapason on the pedal organ is 32', whatever
that comes out at.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

The interval item on the organ renovation mentioned 64' pipes. I didn't
quite feel the earth move but it did sound jolly good to me.

Oh and I never realised before that "The Planets" contains a forearm
cluster
on the organ (ooh err missus).

Roy.



No it didn't - he played a top G on (I think) the smallest pipe and bottom C
on a 32ft diapason - 32ft being the biggest pipe on any organ - honking at
16Hz. At that frequency you feel it, not hear it and not even DAB will pass
frequencies as low as that!


--

Woody

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On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:38:09 GMT, "Woody"
wrote:


"Roy" roy wrote in message ...

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...

Well, the double open diapason on the pedal organ is 32', whatever
that comes out at.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

The interval item on the organ renovation mentioned 64' pipes. I didn't
quite feel the earth move but it did sound jolly good to me.

Oh and I never realised before that "The Planets" contains a forearm
cluster
on the organ (ooh err missus).

Roy.



No it didn't - he played a top G on (I think) the smallest pipe and bottom C
on a 32ft diapason - 32ft being the biggest pipe on any organ - honking at
16Hz. At that frequency you feel it, not hear it and not even DAB will pass
frequencies as low as that!

It certainly does.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

They're here.....!!!
 

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:12:23 +0100, Jim Lesurf
wrote:


I liked the sound via DTTV, but had the impression that the stereo
spread was narrower for the Bach than later on. My only hesitation is
that I must admit not to being much of a fan for Slatkin. His
conducting tends to me to sound a bit 'soft and watercoloured' at
times.

Stereo spread not wide enough? Must have been using the wrong speaker
cables, JIm ;-)

I may have been imagining it. The cables are long enough to reach the
speakers, though... :-)

I also recorded it onto DVD [ :-)) ] Listening to the recording again I
think that was reacting to was the addition of the chorus for the "Music
Makers" and the change in orchestation. This seems overall to have a
slightly wider/different spread to the Bach. Hence I can't decide if the
effect is real, or if real what caused it. Quite slight, though.

Alas, what I record isn't identical to what I hear first time around. I can
listen via a decent DAC, but the recording is fed via a scart from the DTTV
box, so uses the DTTV box's DACs - which I bypass for normal listening.

It is on my 'to do' list to rewire things a bit so I can feed the DVD
recorder from the decent DAC. However I am hoping that someone will produce
a good DVD recorder with its own DTTV RX before this task pops up to the
top of the stack. ;- That will then remove all the annoyances of having
an unwanted DAC-ADC link in the chain when recording.


Seriously, though, I didn't notice that. Maybe I was too blown away by
being able to tell where things actually were in the orchestra just by
listening.

I keep finding an different effect. Listening/watching a good TV broadcast
or DVD of an orchestra performance I become aware that the visual POV and
perspective keep jumping around, but the sound image is fixed. This gives
me occasional confusions when something comes from off-center but is given
a close-shot on camera! However closing my eyes for a short while usually
sorts this out. :-) The result is that I tend to prefer having vision with
sound. This surprised me when I first started listening to DTTV/DVD
concerts as I expected the vision to be of no use. However being able to
watch things like the fingering of the artists seems to help. It also tends
at times to reinforce my amazement that anyone can play some of pieces of
music at all - let alone superbly!


I was expecting the delays on sound and vision to be pretty much the
same, as they are both digital, but alas, the sound was still way behind
the vision. Didn't care, though - just enjoyed the evening.

You mean offsets in delay between DTTV and DAB? Some people have
reported finding that sound and vision from their DTTV box gets out of
sync. However I have not noticed this. Mind you, I do not seem very
sensitive to this sort of thing. (Or at least my wife sometimes complains
about it when I haven't noticed it at all. :-) ) I tend to focus on
hearing, with vision giving just a little extra info to help keep
attention.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

They're here.....!!!
 

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
You mean offsets in delay between DTTV and DAB? Some people have
reported finding that sound and vision from their DTTV box gets out of
sync.

It's near impossible to say where the problem originates - so much
material originates out of sync. I've seen progs where it's been corrected
half way through. Cheap 'live' type progs are some of the worst offenders.

--
*Husband and cat lost -- reward for cat

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

They're here.....!!!
 

On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:20:01 +0100, Jim Lesurf
wrote:

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:12:23 +0100, Jim Lesurf
wrote:


I liked the sound via DTTV, but had the impression that the stereo
spread was narrower for the Bach than later on. My only hesitation is
that I must admit not to being much of a fan for Slatkin. His
conducting tends to me to sound a bit 'soft and watercoloured' at
times.

Stereo spread not wide enough? Must have been using the wrong speaker
cables, JIm ;-)

I may have been imagining it. The cables are long enough to reach the
speakers, though... :-)

I also recorded it onto DVD [ :-)) ] Listening to the recording again I
think that was reacting to was the addition of the chorus for the "Music
Makers" and the change in orchestation. This seems overall to have a
slightly wider/different spread to the Bach. Hence I can't decide if the
effect is real, or if real what caused it. Quite slight, though.

Alas, what I record isn't identical to what I hear first time around. I can
listen via a decent DAC, but the recording is fed via a scart from the DTTV
box, so uses the DTTV box's DACs - which I bypass for normal listening.

It is on my 'to do' list to rewire things a bit so I can feed the DVD
recorder from the decent DAC. However I am hoping that someone will produce
a good DVD recorder with its own DTTV RX before this task pops up to the
top of the stack. ;- That will then remove all the annoyances of having
an unwanted DAC-ADC link in the chain when recording.


Seriously, though, I didn't notice that. Maybe I was too blown away by
being able to tell where things actually were in the orchestra just by
listening.

I keep finding an different effect. Listening/watching a good TV broadcast
or DVD of an orchestra performance I become aware that the visual POV and
perspective keep jumping around, but the sound image is fixed. This gives
me occasional confusions when something comes from off-center but is given
a close-shot on camera! However closing my eyes for a short while usually
sorts this out. :-) The result is that I tend to prefer having vision with
sound. This surprised me when I first started listening to DTTV/DVD
concerts as I expected the vision to be of no use. However being able to
watch things like the fingering of the artists seems to help. It also tends
at times to reinforce my amazement that anyone can play some of pieces of
music at all - let alone superbly!

When you think of the alternative - the sound changing to suit the
perspective of every camera shot - I think the fixed sound stage will
do very nicely!

I was expecting the delays on sound and vision to be pretty much the
same, as they are both digital, but alas, the sound was still way behind
the vision. Didn't care, though - just enjoyed the evening.

You mean offsets in delay between DTTV and DAB? Some people have
reported finding that sound and vision from their DTTV box gets out of
sync. However I have not noticed this. Mind you, I do not seem very
sensitive to this sort of thing. (Or at least my wife sometimes complains
about it when I haven't noticed it at all. :-) ) I tend to focus on
hearing, with vision giving just a little extra info to help keep
attention.

Slainte,

Jim

I'm VERY conscious of the differential delay between sound and vision
on Freeview. Unfortunately the discrepancy always seems to be in the
unacceptable direction - sound before vision.

d
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

They're here.....!!!
 

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 09:20:01 +0100, Jim Lesurf
wrote:

I keep finding an different effect. Listening/watching a good TV
broadcast or DVD of an orchestra performance I become aware that the
visual POV and perspective keep jumping around, but the sound image is
fixed.

When you think of the alternative - the sound changing to suit the
perspective of every camera shot - I think the fixed sound stage will do
very nicely!

I agree. :-) Having the sound image and POV hopping about would probably
make me feel sea-sick pretty quickly.


I'm VERY conscious of the differential delay between sound and vision on
Freeview. Unfortunately the discrepancy always seems to be in the
unacceptable direction - sound before vision.

This is one of the reasons I am now wary of some types of display. I have
read reports that the delay the image for some time in order to scale them
onto the display or 'enhance' the image. Thus spoiling sync unless you can
then add in a sound delay that matches. Although I am (perhaps fortunately)
not very sensitive to this - perhaps as a result of always having had poor
eyesight that was not picked up until relatively late.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html