as demand increases, so does prices
I don't know if demand is increasing - and remember that a big slice of the
market is group gear - and in any case there are just a few 'rarities' like Syl
6SN7s, Amperex ECC83s and Mullard EL34s that are expensive, and those have
perfectly good cheap substitutes. People like Jim who spent their lives in
valve gear don't like selling at silly prices - goes against their principles.

I'd bet that when valve equipment becomes rare there will still be a
mountain of unused valves out there
Not as big as the pile of obsolete PCBs.......
LOL!
Mind, Max Bygraves at £6.50. I need to talk this through with my therapist.


=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:31:33 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...

I think we bottleheads are ultimately going to become rarities,

That's the point, done right we don't have to be. Plenty of people believe
the valve (OK, triode then... ;-) to be the ultimate 'audio amplifier'
(analogue OR digital) so why should it ever disappear? (What beats a pair of
scissors for cutting stuff, eh??)

What 'plenty of people believe' and reality are not always the same.
Your analogy is poor, since a pair of scissors outperforms other
easily available tools for its designated task. Not so with valve
amps, which are generally poor performers (especially the SET variety)
by any definition of 'high fidelity'.


but the sound
of valves lives on - musicians love them and use them, and a number of musical
listeners, as you say, find they come closest to the sound they find represents
the "musical experience".

Yep.

Most critical listeners however, prefer the sound of SS amps - and
that's unlikely to change. Aside from a couple of 'boutique' studios,
you won't find valve amps used by the people who record or master the
music to which you listen.........................
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Andy Evans wrote:


I think we bottleheads are ultimately going to become rarities, but the sound
of valves lives on - musicians love them and use them, and a number of musical
listeners, as you say, find they come closest to the sound they find represents
the "musical experience".

If valves are used for musical *production*, then the distortion forms
part of the art (which is fine, since musicians are making new music)

However, for musical *reproduction*, the valves would distort the signal
being reproduced, and taken to its extreme, a valve amp would then act
as a signal processor, wouldn't it?

Tat Chan wrote:

If valves are used for musical *production*, then the distortion forms
part of the art (which is fine, since musicians are making new music)

However, for musical *reproduction*, the valves would distort the
signal being reproduced, and taken to its extreme, a valve amp would
then act as a signal processor, wouldn't it?

The 'extreme', to my mind, is more like a valve guitar amp than a valve hifi
amp.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

"Tat Chan" wrote in message
...
Andy Evans wrote:


I think we bottleheads are ultimately going to become rarities, but the
sound
of valves lives on - musicians love them and use them, and a number of
musical
listeners, as you say, find they come closest to the sound they find
represents
the "musical experience".

If valves are used for musical *production*, then the distortion forms
part of the art (which is fine, since musicians are making new music)

However, for musical *reproduction*, the valves would distort the signal
being reproduced, and taken to its extreme, a valve amp would then act
as a signal processor, wouldn't it?


This sort of post never fails to amaze me - like ss kit *doesn't* distort
the signal FFS!!!

"Keith G" wrote in message
...
Clipped wooly bit ;-)

Secondly, it is not easy to get an audition of valve gear in the UK
without
going to an 'audio boutique' which are few and far between and where the
prices are sky-high in any case. Hence a lot of people, looking to get
into
valves are 'taking a flyer' and buying from eBay, the Net, mail order and
secondhand. This is the reason a lot of valvies (me included) have been
willing to invite people in and hear our own valve gear where they can get
a
good listen without any obligation to spend money.

Buying without audition is happening more and more in this neck of the woods
(Highlands) as its so easy to move it on via ebay if its not what you wanted
and maybe also make a bit of profit on it too if you're lucky.


This has been very successful for me and I have had a number of visits
that
have all been very pleasant and have actually ended up with one or two
people buying valve gear. At any rate, no-one has told me yet that they
didn't like valves!! (I have only had one instance where someone appears
to
have been a bit two-faced/indiscrete and that wasn't even a 'valve
auditioner'!)

Same here, I've had a few folk who've also taken up valves after listening
here.


However, having said all that, I for one am a becoming a bit reluctant to
recommend valves to all and sundry as:

1) The prices will go up as valves become more popular (as they have with
secondhand vinyl, which is now about 10 times more expensive in charity
shops in the UK than it was a couple of years ago....), NOS valves will
disappear more quickly and the increasing popularity will encourage more
crap onto the market. (Offsetting this, of course, is that the same
popularity will ensure better continuity of supply generally....)

It could go the other way i.e. the manufacture of even better more reliable
valves - surely with modern technology the NOS valves could be copied and
improved upon?


2) Valves take a lot more 'work' than ss gear - normally beyond the scope
of
'box openers' if anything goes wrong. OK if a support structure
establishes
itself - I already know one UK valve amp builder who is doing nicely out
of
fettling cheap, new foreign amps or, as in the case of our own Fleetie,
you
are able to get the spanners out if anything goes tits-up which, of
course,
it can/probably will at some point.....

3) There is also the possibility that the greater danger of valves (heat,
voltages and even the greater weight of valve amps) will result in some
divot getting badly hurt and a great raft of legislation swinging into
place
to control everything that will sweep away the good guys with the bad guys
like it's doing with everything else these days!

Many tube amps are weighty but don't forget SS amplifiers are also very
heavy, the big Krells, ML's etc. My own SS amp weighs in at 125 lbs.

The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing (for
various reasons mentioned above) but I gotta say finally that I have yet
to
hear a valve amp that didn't comprehensively **** all over most ss amps
I've
heard in terms of 'listenability' - ie where the 'music' counts more than
the 'sound quality'......

(My 2p only....)

Make that 4p Mike

"Mike Gilmour" wrote


OK, a lightning response here also:


Buying without audition is happening more and more in this neck of the
woods
(Highlands) as its so easy to move it on via ebay if its not what you
wanted
and maybe also make a bit of profit on it too if you're lucky.


*Exactamento*



Same here, I've had a few folk who've also taken up valves after listening
here.


I've a very nice chap (Iraqi/Turkish descent living in Brussels) ask me a
string questions about valves atm - Jeez, if you think *we're* hard done by
for valve gear and retail outlets!!!



It could go the other way i.e. the manufacture of even better more
reliable
valves - surely with modern technology the NOS valves could be copied and
improved upon?


Absolutely, but of little interest to the *real* Classic Valve Boys!! ;-)


Many tube amps are weighty but don't forget SS amplifiers are also very
heavy, the big Krells, ML's etc. My own SS amp weighs in at 125 lbs.


I'd bet that most people being tempted by 'budget' valve amps aren't coming
from ss behemoths (some of which are real amps and can sound damn near as
good as valves anyway) but from the ****e little 'flyaway' slices of brushed
aluminium....



The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing
(for
various reasons mentioned above) but I gotta say finally that I have yet
to
hear a valve amp that didn't comprehensively **** all over most ss amps
I've
heard in terms of 'listenability' - ie where the 'music' counts more
than
the 'sound quality'......

(My 2p only....)

Make that 4p Mike


(It'll take all night to make the price of a pint at this rate!! :-)

On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:47:10 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Mike Gilmour" wrote

Many tube amps are weighty but don't forget SS amplifiers are also very
heavy, the big Krells, ML's etc. My own SS amp weighs in at 125 lbs.

I'd bet that most people being tempted by 'budget' valve amps aren't coming
from ss behemoths (some of which are real amps and can sound damn near as
good as valves anyway) but from the ****e little 'flyaway' slices of brushed
aluminium....

I think you have that the wrong way round. A few select valve amps are
real amps, and can sound damn near as good as most SS amps........
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Keith G wrote:
Firstly, as the OP is in N Wales I think you should be a little less
sheepish, ram your point home a bit harder and qualify your question thus:
'Tell my why ewe think this is a good idea, if ewe don't hear the amp first
ewe could get the wool pulled over your eyes and someone will fleece ewe...'

(Shear common sense for an Ozzie, I would'a thought...??)


uhm, no ... I think the Kiwis would know more about sheep ...

:P



The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing (for
^^^^^^

OI!!! I would be careful with using that kind of language ...

"Tat Chan" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:
Firstly, as the OP is in N Wales I think you should be a little less
sheepish, ram your point home a bit harder and qualify your question
thus:
'Tell my why ewe think this is a good idea, if ewe don't hear the amp
first
ewe could get the wool pulled over your eyes and someone will fleece
ewe...'

(Shear common sense for an Ozzie, I would'a thought...??)


uhm, no ... I think the Kiwis would know more about sheep ...

:P


OK, go to http://www.dfmg.com.tw/mirron/wool/austflock.html and see "The
Australian sheep flock now numbers 138.1million head (at March 1993)."

(And that's 10 years old!!!)




The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing
(for
^^^^^^

OI!!! I would be careful with using that kind of language ...



Sorry - make that *inexpensive* Chinky amps then..... :-)