Keith G wrote:

"Tat Chan" wrote in message
...


uhm, no ... I think the Kiwis would know more about sheep ...

:P



OK, go to http://www.dfmg.com.tw/mirron/wool/austflock.html and see "The
Australian sheep flock now numbers 138.1million head (at March 1993)."

(And that's 10 years old!!!)


I wasn't refering to numbers, just the stereotype down in Oz about Kiwis
being, uhm, rather attached to their sheep ... I could go on, but it
wouldn't be PC ...





The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing

(for

^^^^^^

OI!!! I would be careful with using that kind of language ...


Sorry - make that *inexpensive* Chinky amps then..... :-)


Hmmm, looks like I stuffed up the formatting of the location of my
'^^^^^' characters.

Anyway, the original post was meant to convey my objection to the use of
the term 'Chinky'

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote

**ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for
use.
There are several reasons


snipped but agreed with entirely


Tell me again why you would buy an amp, without first listening to it?
Tell my why you think this is a good idea?


OK, Trevor, you're not getting a nibble so I'll respond:

Firstly, as the OP is in N Wales I think you should be a little less
sheepish, ram your point home a bit harder and qualify your question thus:
'Tell my why ewe think this is a good idea, if ewe don't hear the amp
first
ewe could get the wool pulled over your eyes and someone will fleece
ewe...'

(Shear common sense for an Ozzie, I would'a thought...??)

**Heheh. Yep.


:-)

Secondly, it is not easy to get an audition of valve gear in the UK
without
going to an 'audio boutique' which are few and far between and where the
prices are sky-high in any case. Hence a lot of people, looking to get
into
valves are 'taking a flyer' and buying from eBay, the Net, mail order and
secondhand. This is the reason a lot of valvies (me included) have been
willing to invite people in and hear our own valve gear where they can get
a
good listen without any obligation to spend money.

**Sounds like good, common sense to me.


This has been very successful for me and I have had a number of visits
that
have all been very pleasant and have actually ended up with one or two
people buying valve gear. At any rate, no-one has told me yet that they
didn't like valves!! (I have only had one instance where someone appears
to
have been a bit two-faced/indiscrete and that wasn't even a 'valve
auditioner'!)

However, having said all that, I for one am a becoming a bit reluctant to
recommend valves to all and sundry as:

1) The prices will go up as valves become more popular (as they have with
secondhand vinyl, which is now about 10 times more expensive in charity
shops in the UK than it was a couple of years ago....), NOS valves will
disappear more quickly and the increasing popularity will encourage more
crap onto the market. (Offsetting this, of course, is that the same
popularity will ensure better continuity of supply generally....)

**Very possibly. I don't see a major problem, as long as China and Russia
manage to keep their production profitable.


2) Valves take a lot more 'work' than ss gear - normally beyond the scope
of
'box openers' if anything goes wrong. OK if a support structure
establishes
itself - I already know one UK valve amp builder who is doing nicely out
of
fettling cheap, new foreign amps or, as in the case of our own Fleetie,
you
are able to get the spanners out if anything goes tits-up which, of
course,
it can/probably will at some point.....

3) There is also the possibility that the greater danger of valves (heat,
voltages and even the greater weight of valve amps) will result in some
divot getting badly hurt and a great raft of legislation swinging into
place
to control everything that will sweep away the good guys with the bad guys
like it's doing with everything else these days!

**A good point. Those pesky EU regs have even reached our shores.


The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing (for
various reasons mentioned above) but I gotta say finally that I have yet
to
hear a valve amp that didn't comprehensively **** all over most ss amps
I've
heard in terms of 'listenability' - ie where the 'music' counts more than
the 'sound quality'......

**And I have yet to hear a CHEAP valve amp which can compete with a
similarly priced, decently engineered SS one. Cheap valve amps are just not
worth bothering with. Their output transformers are pitifully inadequate.
Amongst other things. OTOH, a REALLY GOOD valve amp sounds (and,
incidentally, measures) almost indistinguishable from a really good SS amp.

That should set some alarm bells ringing for those who value reason and
common sense above hyperbole.


(My 2p only....)

**And mine.

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


**And I have yet to hear a CHEAP valve amp which can compete with a
similarly priced, decently engineered SS one. Cheap valve amps are just
not
worth bothering with. Their output transformers are pitifully inadequate.
Amongst other things. OTOH, a REALLY GOOD valve amp sounds (and,
incidentally, measures) almost indistinguishable from a really good SS
amp.


On paper I would agree with you, but I suspect the reality for many people
is that cheap valve amps actually *do* provide the type of sound the
purchaser is looking for. My argument is that it *seems* they are more
likely to play up and that people buying them should be aware of this - not
a problem if the buyer has the skills to sort them out, or there is support
readily available at reasonable prices. (I have to say it appears at least
some of the eBay sellers of cheap amps appear to be ready and willing to
help when necessary....??)

Let's sum this up with an analogy:

You want a car to get about. You got two choices - save up for a long time
to buy a 'respected, reliable' car or you buy summat cheap or secondhand and
*expect* to have to get the spanners out sooner or later. It's that simple
and they way I view the recent influx of cheap amps. You'll never fettle an
old banger into a Bentley but at least it'll whizz around (keeping you dry
when it rains) for most of the time and it's quite likely to be a lot of
fun!

(I would add also that I don't think these cheap amps are quite as bad as
some would have us believe - as usual, I don't think most of the 'knockers'
have ever heard one!)


That should set some alarm bells ringing for those who value reason and
common sense above hyperbole.


But who are not the people buying cheap valve amps, I suspect.....

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


**And I have yet to hear a CHEAP valve amp which can compete with a
similarly priced, decently engineered SS one. Cheap valve amps are just
not
worth bothering with. Their output transformers are pitifully
inadequate.
Amongst other things. OTOH, a REALLY GOOD valve amp sounds (and,
incidentally, measures) almost indistinguishable from a really good SS
amp.


On paper I would agree with you, but I suspect the reality for many people
is that cheap valve amps actually *do* provide the type of sound the
purchaser is looking for.

**Perhaps. The Empreror's New Clothes syndrome is not unknown in this area.
A client dumped an old pair of 3 Watt valve amps in for me to fix. Two of
the four output trannies were shot and all the caps and resistors, along
with a bunch of the tubes had to be replaced. The quote for repair was
around AUS$700.00. I offered him an alternative, for around AUS$200.00,
which if he was unhappy, I would gladly rebuild his amp to new spec and give
him the 200 Bucks back (whilst charging him the 700 Smackers, of course).
Win-win.

He accepted by cheap alternative. I dutifully repaired his amp and returned
it. he LOVED it. "it sounds better than it ever has." he said. Cool,
everyone's happy.

My repair involved the fitting of 4 SS power amp ICs, along with some HF and
LF filtering, to simulate typical tube frwquency responses.

I never told him what I had done.

My argument is that it *seems* they are more
likely to play up and that people buying them should be aware of this -
not
a problem if the buyer has the skills to sort them out, or there is
support
readily available at reasonable prices. (I have to say it appears at least
some of the eBay sellers of cheap amps appear to be ready and willing to
help when necessary....??)

Let's sum this up with an analogy:

You want a car to get about. You got two choices - save up for a long time
to buy a 'respected, reliable' car or you buy summat cheap or secondhand
and
*expect* to have to get the spanners out sooner or later. It's that simple
and they way I view the recent influx of cheap amps. You'll never fettle
an
old banger into a Bentley but at least it'll whizz around (keeping you dry
when it rains) for most of the time and it's quite likely to be a lot of
fun!

**Your analogy is faulty. Cheap Chinese valve amps are more expensive than
good quality, new SS amps (Rotel, Arcam, et al). Those pesky output
transformers ensure that valve amps will ALWAYS cost more than approximately
equivalent SS amps.


(I would add also that I don't think these cheap amps are quite as bad as
some would have us believe - as usual, I don't think most of the
'knockers'
have ever heard one!)

**I have. I can hear their problems. They distort. They have no place in hi
fi. Some look mighty purty though.



That should set some alarm bells ringing for those who value reason and
common sense above hyperbole.


But who are not the people buying cheap valve amps, I suspect.....

**Correctomundo.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote:

"StaffBull" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the helpful comments below - another question I have is if
I would leave a valve amp on all the time or switch it off and have to
wait for it to warm up every time I need it?

**ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for
use. There are several reasons for this: * Leaving an amp switched on,
accelerates wear and tear on several parts. In SS amps, this means
electrolytic caps.

I would quibble a bit with this. :-)

IIUC Electrolytic caps also deteriorate if *not* used for prolonged
periods. Provided they are used well within their ratings, being charged up
means they should have a 'self healing' tendency for minor electronic
leakages. Hence, left unused they may show a fall in capacity and rise in
leakage current. This should recover with use, though.

Above said, the 'goop' that is inside them does deteriorate with age, use,
and temperature. Hence using them does wear them out. Should be quite a
slow process if they are well built and cautiously rated, though.

FWIW I just turn on the amps before use, and turn them off afterwards. Mind
you, I am happy with SS amps, and don't normally notice any signs of
'warming up' over a long period. With a valve amp, I'd probably be inclined
to switch them on 10 mins before use, and off after use. Dislike leaving
things like this powered up unattended due to the risk of failures. Small
risk probability, but the 'cost' of a house fire can be quite large! Prefer
peace of mind.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote:

"StaffBull" wrote in message
...
Thanks for the helpful comments below - another question I have is if
I would leave a valve amp on all the time or switch it off and have to
wait for it to warm up every time I need it?

**ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for
use. There are several reasons for this: * Leaving an amp switched on,
accelerates wear and tear on several parts. In SS amps, this means
electrolytic caps.

I would quibble a bit with this. :-)

**Perhaps you don't see as many amps with dried out electros, as I do.


IIUC Electrolytic caps also deteriorate if *not* used for prolonged
periods. Provided they are used well within their ratings, being charged
up
means they should have a 'self healing' tendency for minor electronic
leakages. Hence, left unused they may show a fall in capacity and rise in
leakage current. This should recover with use, though.

**Of course. I was assuming that the amp was to be used at least once per
month. That is plenty to keep a cap formed.


Above said, the 'goop' that is inside them does deteriorate with age, use,
and temperature. Hence using them does wear them out. Should be quite a
slow process if they are well built and cautiously rated, though.

**"Should". Yes. In actual fact, however, not necessarily. Manufacturers are
driven to maximise profits. Cheap caps make good sense, in that
environment. Very few manufacturers use 100,000 hour rated caps.


FWIW I just turn on the amps before use, and turn them off afterwards.
Mind
you, I am happy with SS amps, and don't normally notice any signs of
'warming up' over a long period. With a valve amp, I'd probably be
inclined
to switch them on 10 mins before use, and off after use. Dislike leaving
things like this powered up unattended due to the risk of failures. Small
risk probability, but the 'cost' of a house fire can be quite large!
Prefer
peace of mind.

**Good advice.

As usual.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au