Alrighty. A 4 - 5 year old 8000DAC has appeared on the Oz Ebay site. I
believe it would be the "MkIII" designation as it would have been the
last model produced before the 8000DAX. The 8000DAC in question has a
"20-bit" DAC.

My current CD player is a Rotel 965 Bitstream player that apparently has
a lower than usual SNR for CD players due to the ultrasonic hash
produced by the Bitstream implementation (and apparently it is meant to
sound "airy").

I like the idea of a DAC as I can also connect my DVD player (a 2 year
old entry level Philips) and use it for other digital sources (digital
TV, DAB in Oz when it finally arrives, audio from a PC, etc) that do not
have "well implemented" analogue output stages.

I know that I shouldn't be spending money on electronics before
upgrading my speakers and listening conditions, but electronics are
easier to dispose of than speakers if I don't like them (and have a
higher WAF as well, I mean who ever complains about new electronics
components, it isn't like I'm putting a pair of ESL-63s in the lounge room)

And before anyone says "a 2 box solution will have higher jitter levels
than a 1 box player", I will say that the Audiolab DAC is known for its
jitter attenuation properties.

So, the questions are ...

- How much would a late model 8000DAC be worth (ie the most I should bid
on)?
- Would adding the Audiolab DAC bring an improvement to CD sound
playback (compared to my Rotel CD player)?


Thanks.

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:04:46 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:


Alrighty. A 4 - 5 year old 8000DAC has appeared on the Oz Ebay site. I
believe it would be the "MkIII" designation as it would have been the
last model produced before the 8000DAX. The 8000DAC in question has a
"20-bit" DAC.

My current CD player is a Rotel 965 Bitstream player that apparently has
a lower than usual SNR for CD players due to the ultrasonic hash
produced by the Bitstream implementation (and apparently it is meant to
sound "airy").

All Audiolab DACs are Bitstream. The designation '20-bit' indicates
the linearity, not the presence of a multibit converter.

I like the idea of a DAC as I can also connect my DVD player (a 2 year
old entry level Philips) and use it for other digital sources (digital
TV, DAB in Oz when it finally arrives, audio from a PC, etc) that do not
have "well implemented" analogue output stages.

It is an excellent DAC, and a good choice if you do need multiple
digital inputs.

I know that I shouldn't be spending money on electronics before
upgrading my speakers and listening conditions, but electronics are
easier to dispose of than speakers if I don't like them (and have a
higher WAF as well, I mean who ever complains about new electronics
components, it isn't like I'm putting a pair of ESL-63s in the lounge room)

Now that *would* be an improvement! Of course, spousal replacement can
be *very* expensive..................

And before anyone says "a 2 box solution will have higher jitter levels
than a 1 box player", I will say that the Audiolab DAC is known for its
jitter attenuation properties.

Indeed it is - although that only minimises the problem, it does not
remove it!

So, the questions are ...

- How much would a late model 8000DAC be worth (ie the most I should bid
on)?

Hard to say for sure, but I wouldn't go above A$700 . Always bear in
mind that you wouldn't want to pay more than half the price of a
Benchmark DAC-1, which is demonstrably superior.

- Would adding the Audiolab DAC bring an improvement to CD sound
playback (compared to my Rotel CD player)?

Unlikely, but the multiple source argument still applies.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:04:46 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:


Alrighty. A 4 - 5 year old 8000DAC has appeared on the Oz Ebay site. I
believe it would be the "MkIII" designation as it would have been the
last model produced before the 8000DAX. The 8000DAC in question has a
"20-bit" DAC.

My current CD player is a Rotel 965 Bitstream player that apparently has
a lower than usual SNR for CD players due to the ultrasonic hash
produced by the Bitstream implementation (and apparently it is meant to
sound "airy").


All Audiolab DACs are Bitstream. The designation '20-bit' indicates
the linearity, not the presence of a multibit converter.

Aha! So does "20-bit linear" mean the output waveform is linear up to a
resolution of 20 bits, so it would have no problems reproducing the 16-bit PCM
CD data?

It is an excellent DAC, and a good choice if you do need multiple
digital inputs.

well, I don't need the extra inputs yet, but might in the future.



I know that I shouldn't be spending money on electronics before
upgrading my speakers and listening conditions, but electronics are
easier to dispose of than speakers if I don't like them (and have a
higher WAF as well, I mean who ever complains about new electronics
components, it isn't like I'm putting a pair of ESL-63s in the lounge room)


Now that *would* be an improvement! Of course, spousal replacement can
be *very* expensive..................


more expensive than a new pair of ESLs?
Now that would be expensive ...



So, the questions are ...

- How much would a late model 8000DAC be worth (ie the most I should bid
on)?


Hard to say for sure, but I wouldn't go above A$700 . Always bear in
mind that you wouldn't want to pay more than half the price of a
Benchmark DAC-1, which is demonstrably superior.

The AUD$700 is about half the price of the Benchmark DAC1 (only available here
from a pro audio shop). Still, quite a bit more than what I was willing to pay
(there is an Arcam Alpha 9 on Ebay with a starting bid of AUD$950 ... not a
single bid on that one yet!). Audiolab equipment comes with a huge markup in Oz
(though the prices in South East Asia were equivalent to the UK RRP) for some
reason or other.

The current bid is now AUD$222 ... with 4 days to go, I expect it to go even
higher. Damn it, I have myself to feed!

Hmmm, wonder if this excuse will work ... "but it cost less than your last
shopping trip! And it comes in a nice shiny black case"


- Would adding the Audiolab DAC bring an improvement to CD sound
playback (compared to my Rotel CD player)?

Unlikely, but the multiple source argument still applies.

Well, it would be easy to do a blind, time synched comparison between the CD
player's analogue output and the DAC's analogue output (not sure if any level
matching will have to be done, after all, aren't all line level outputs the same?)

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:04:46 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:




And before anyone says "a 2 box solution will have higher jitter levels
than a 1 box player", I will say that the Audiolab DAC is known for its
jitter attenuation properties.


Indeed it is - although that only minimises the problem, it does not
remove it!



Ah, but is the problem audible?


- How much would a late model 8000DAC be worth (ie the most I should bid
on)?


Hard to say for sure, but I wouldn't go above A$700 . Always bear in
mind that you wouldn't want to pay more than half the price of a
Benchmark DAC-1, which is demonstrably superior.


"Demonstrably"? As in audibly superior or just superior based on measurements?

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 23:10:20 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:

The AUD$700 is about half the price of the Benchmark DAC1 (only available here
from a pro audio shop). Still, quite a bit more than what I was willing to pay
(there is an Arcam Alpha 9 on Ebay with a starting bid of AUD$950 ... not a
single bid on that one yet!). Audiolab equipment comes with a huge markup in Oz
(though the prices in South East Asia were equivalent to the UK RRP) for some
reason or other.

I would sooner go for the Arcam Alpha 9 with its RingDAC than add the
Audiolab DAC. The Benchmark is better as well.

Kal

"Tat Chan" wrote in message
...
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:04:46 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:




And before anyone says "a 2 box solution will have higher jitter levels
than a 1 box player", I will say that the Audiolab DAC is known for its
jitter attenuation properties.


Indeed it is - although that only minimises the problem, it does not
remove it!



Ah, but is the problem audible?


- How much would a late model 8000DAC be worth (ie the most I should bid
on)?


Hard to say for sure, but I wouldn't go above A$700 . Always bear in
mind that you wouldn't want to pay more than half the price of a
Benchmark DAC-1, which is demonstrably superior.


"Demonstrably"? As in audibly superior or just superior based on
measurements?



The interesting thing is, if he told you it *was* audibly superior, would it
mean anything??

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 23:10:20 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:04:46 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:


Alrighty. A 4 - 5 year old 8000DAC has appeared on the Oz Ebay site. I
believe it would be the "MkIII" designation as it would have been the
last model produced before the 8000DAX. The 8000DAC in question has a
"20-bit" DAC.

My current CD player is a Rotel 965 Bitstream player that apparently has
a lower than usual SNR for CD players due to the ultrasonic hash
produced by the Bitstream implementation (and apparently it is meant to
sound "airy").


All Audiolab DACs are Bitstream. The designation '20-bit' indicates
the linearity, not the presence of a multibit converter.

Aha! So does "20-bit linear" mean the output waveform is linear up to a
resolution of 20 bits, so it would have no problems reproducing the 16-bit PCM
CD data?

Yes, as with any other modern DAC (since 1990 or thereabouts).

It is an excellent DAC, and a good choice if you do need multiple
digital inputs.

well, I don't need the extra inputs yet, but might in the future.

I know that I shouldn't be spending money on electronics before
upgrading my speakers and listening conditions, but electronics are
easier to dispose of than speakers if I don't like them (and have a
higher WAF as well, I mean who ever complains about new electronics
components, it isn't like I'm putting a pair of ESL-63s in the lounge room)

Now that *would* be an improvement! Of course, spousal replacement can
be *very* expensive..................

more expensive than a new pair of ESLs?
Now that would be expensive ...

Clearly, you have never consulted a divorce lawyer! Around here, you
can have the bitch 'taken out' *much* more cheaply................

So, the questions are ...

- How much would a late model 8000DAC be worth (ie the most I should bid
on)?

Hard to say for sure, but I wouldn't go above A$700 . Always bear in
mind that you wouldn't want to pay more than half the price of a
Benchmark DAC-1, which is demonstrably superior.

The AUD$700 is about half the price of the Benchmark DAC1 (only available here
from a pro audio shop). Still, quite a bit more than what I was willing to pay
(there is an Arcam Alpha 9 on Ebay with a starting bid of AUD$950 ... not a
single bid on that one yet!). Audiolab equipment comes with a huge markup in Oz
(though the prices in South East Asia were equivalent to the UK RRP) for some
reason or other.

The current bid is now AUD$222 ... with 4 days to go, I expect it to go even
higher. Damn it, I have myself to feed!

Hmmm, wonder if this excuse will work ... "but it cost less than your last
shopping trip! And it comes in a nice shiny black case"

Always worth a try, and the Audiolab is certainly worth AUD $5-600, as
it's beautifully engineered and has impeccable design credentials.

- Would adding the Audiolab DAC bring an improvement to CD sound
playback (compared to my Rotel CD player)?

Unlikely, but the multiple source argument still applies.

Well, it would be easy to do a blind, time synched comparison between the CD
player's analogue output and the DAC's analogue output (not sure if any level
matching will have to be done, after all, aren't all line level outputs the same?)

No, they certainly are not! The 2V standard output is only 'nominal',
I've seen up to 3.6 volts out of some players.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 11:33:09 -0400, Kalman Rubinson
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 23:10:20 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:

The AUD$700 is about half the price of the Benchmark DAC1 (only available here
from a pro audio shop). Still, quite a bit more than what I was willing to pay
(there is an Arcam Alpha 9 on Ebay with a starting bid of AUD$950 ... not a
single bid on that one yet!). Audiolab equipment comes with a huge markup in Oz
(though the prices in South East Asia were equivalent to the UK RRP) for some
reason or other.

I would sooner go for the Arcam Alpha 9 with its RingDAC than add the
Audiolab DAC. The Benchmark is better as well.

If best quality from a single source is the aim, then I agree. The
Benchmark of course gives the best of both worlds. :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Keith G wrote:

"Tat Chan" wrote in message
...

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:




Hard to say for sure, but I wouldn't go above A$700 . Always bear in
mind that you wouldn't want to pay more than half the price of a
Benchmark DAC-1, which is demonstrably superior.


"Demonstrably"? As in audibly superior or just superior based on
measurements?


The interesting thing is, if he told you it *was* audibly superior, would it
mean anything??

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 23:10:20 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:



Now that *would* be an improvement! Of course, spousal replacement can
be *very* expensive..................


more expensive than a new pair of ESLs?
Now that would be expensive ...


Clearly, you have never consulted a divorce lawyer! Around here, you
can have the bitch 'taken out' *much* more cheaply................



'taken out'? Whoops, I think I have watched Pulp Fiction one too many times.



The current bid is now AUD$222 ... with 4 days to go, I expect it to go even
higher. Damn it, I have myself to feed!

Hmmm, wonder if this excuse will work ... "but it cost less than your last
shopping trip! And it comes in a nice shiny black case"

Always worth a try, and the Audiolab is certainly worth AUD $5-600, as
it's beautifully engineered and has impeccable design credentials.

There has been a Meridian 203 DAC that is always on sale at a local
hi-fi shop for AUD$400. I have seen it at the shop, it was sold, and now
it is back for sale at the same price!


Well, it would be easy to do a blind, time synched comparison between the CD
player's analogue output and the DAC's analogue output (not sure if any level
matching will have to be done, after all, aren't all line level outputs the same?)


No, they certainly are not! The 2V standard output is only 'nominal',
I've seen up to 3.6 volts out of some players.

Wished it was a proper 'standard', would make comparisons easier!