Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:35:19 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

Er, no, it was/is the new Chinese amp on the Wharfedale Diamond 8.2s
playing
a CD (Agram) on a Pioneer DVDP!!!! (*Blistering* performance!!!) Good
start
to my 'experimentations if not a complete show-stopper, first time out,
dammit!!! :-)

Ain't life a bitch?! :-)

Note to Fleetie - This little bugger is STAGGERINGLY good in its own
right,
never mind the price....

Note to Mike - I've peeked in the ventilation slots underneath and it's
all
PCB but the wiring looks quite superb - rows of *perfectly* aligned/stood
off resistors with lovely-looking solder for example and the PT is quite
massive but, sorry, but there's no way I'm pulling this to bits! (Might
photograph the innards tho', once the novelty has worn off!)

Note to Phil North - don't **** about, grab that one off eBay for £213
while
you can - I've already had a 'Question from eBay Member' from someone
asking
about them!

Note to Nick - It *is* superb, but we're talking 'hard-arsed digital'
here -
it is *not* my triode/vinyl sound!! ;-)

Hmmmm, could be quite a decent amp, then! :-)


I think so - I've just bought another one!! ;-)

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 14:52:37 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

"harrogate2" wrote in message
...
I must admit that I have never subscribed to the 'golden ear' brigade.

Believe it - they exist. I once asked my partner (musician) to stop me
when
I had increased the sound from a Technics deck (with pitch sliders) by a
semitone by 'blind' listening alone - she stopped me at virtually *dead
on*
+ 6%!! (On many other occasions she has been able point out subtle
differences in sounds that I hadn't heard up 'til then but which became
immediately obvious.....)

Many people are blessed/cursed with perfect pitch. That doesn't
actually make them any better at distinguishing tonal differences in
reproduction gear. Note that, once your attention had been drawn to
subtle differences, you too could hear them. This is a matter of
concentration and experience, not hearing acuity.


Swim doesn't have perfect pitch (I asked) she says she could not sing a
given note with any geat accuracy, she says what she can do better than
most is detect tiny amounts of sharp and flatness from a given note....

I've just asked her to name the amp and speakers on a piece of music just
now - see:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keit...akerlineup.jpg

(no way she could tell what the speakers were being used and was outside
the room in any case) - she said 'Tommy Triode' and the 'Thinnies' (2A3
amp and JM-Lab Chorus 715s - a very good combination)...

Er, no, it was/is the new Chinese amp on the Wharfedale Diamond 8.2s
playing a CD (Agram) on a Pioneer DVDP!!!! (*Blistering* performance!!!)
Good start to my 'experimentations if not a complete show-stopper, first
time out, dammit!!! :-)



Note to Fleetie - This little bugger is STAGGERINGLY good in its own
right, never mind the price....

Note to Mike - I've peeked in the ventilation slots underneath and it's
all PCB but the wiring looks quite superb - rows of *perfectly*
aligned/stood off resistors with lovely-looking solder for example and the
PT is quite massive but, sorry, but there's no way I'm pulling this to
bits! (Might photograph the innards tho', once the novelty has worn off!)


Just like they used to make 'em here in the days of hand assembly. Buy all
you can from China because at this quality it'll go the way of Japan and
Korea i.e. not long prices rise, maybe then workers afforded a better
standard of living. Just been looking at my Sansui Model 2000 (earlyish
Japanese days) and it came with a full workshop manual packed with
schematics, component id photographs and a complete parts list down to the
last nut & washer & a comprehensive user manual.
......sing along 'Those were the days my friend'


Note to Phil North - don't **** about, grab that one off eBay for £213
while you can - I've already had a 'Question from eBay Member' from
someone asking about them!

Note to Nick - It *is* superb, but we're talking 'hard-arsed digital'
here - it is *not* my triode/vinyl sound!! ;-)

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Mike Gilmour wrote:

Ah the good old days of Simulcasts when sound and vision were in sync and
latency wasn't in most folks vocabulary....

Not that old - even I remember them...

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tat Chan wrote:

Or is analogue TV reception in the UK that good? I am assuming you did
the amp shootout in the days before digital TV transmission.


Analogue reception will vary according to local conditions - as will
terrestrial digital. But the vast majority of the population can easily
get excellent reception. Not so in some rural mountainous areas, sadly.

If you mean the system, we have mono FM sound which is the equal of FM
radio - assuming a good receiver - and NICAM digital stereo on a separate
carrier. The distribution to the various transmitters is also digital.

I was thinking of the quality that BBC radio broadcasts are meant to be
famous for and wondered if it was the same for TV broadcasts.

Have heard good things about NICAM, and I have only just realised that
Oz uses German stereo and not NICAM (though my Sony TV supports NICAM).


It's capable of giving very satisfactory results - if the material fed
into it is of high quality. Unfortunately, with the universal trend to low
dynamics and heavy processing, this is getting rather rare.

I've never quite worked out why, given that the average TV set has rather
better sound than was once the case, the programme controllers think we
all listen on two inch speakers in a noisy environment...


I use my TV speakers for the majority of shows I watch and find them
good enough for the task.

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:08:20 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:


Eiron wrote:


Tat Chan wrote:



... my amp gets really hot in the Australian summer just driving a
nomimal 8 Ohm pair of speakers ...

(of course, it could be because my room gets the afternoon sun and the
amp could probably do with more clearance in the rack for ventilation)


The Ozzie speaker makers like their 'difficult loads'.
perhaps they were in league with a certain Ozzie (ex) amp maker. :-)


Not too familiar with Australian speakers having difficult loads. I had
a look at the basic specs for several speakers from various
manufacturers and they seem to have a nominal impedance of 8 Ohms.


I think he's having go at Trevor Wilson, our resident zero global
feedback fan, who always drags out a particularly vicious speaker
curve when amp capabilities are mentioned. IIRC, the speaker in
question was however a US-made Infinity model, which dipped to below 1
ohm at high frequencies.

Is that the same graph TW always drags out?
Btw, he has been rather quiet lately ... and my news server doesn't seem
to pick up his posts anymore, I only saw his latest post when other
people quoted it!

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:12:58 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:


Stewart Pinkerton wrote:


On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:13:44 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:



Stewart Pinkerton wrote:



This old warhorse gets dragged out regularly. I use insensitive 3-ohm
speakers, and while my Audiolab (and several other amps) sounds just
like the Krell, it gets *very* hot after half an hour or so at high
SPLs. Hence, the Krell is there because it drives the speakers with
ease, not because it sounds different.


so did you get the Krell or the Apogees first?
And what speakers were you using before the Apogees?


I got them at the same time, and Maggie 1Cs, which my older Audiolab
8000P drove quite happily.

Ah, so the Apogees were a significant improvement over the Maggies then?


Yes, a massive improvement, although to be fair, they were also *much*
more expensive. A better competitor would have been the Maggie IIIC,
with the classic ribbon tweeter. Comparing those two, I thought the
Apogee was sweeter and more coherent through the wide midband (where
most of the music lies), and had noticeably deeper bass. The high
treble of the Maggie however, remains as good as it gets.


and the bass on your Apogees is good enough to warrant not having a
subwoofer?


I would like to listen to the MMG (retail: US$500) but Magnepan doesn't
seem to have an Australian distributor.


A great value speaker, but as with most large planar dipoles, you do
need a lot of space around it, to make it work properly

Which is a problem in my current listening environment, so that speaker
upgrade will have to be placed on the back burner. Or I can stick to box
speakers (which is what most, if not all Australian speaker
manufacturers make).



I should have kept that amp, since I ended
up buying another one when I did my own 'amplifier shootout' while
setting up my TV sound system.

"TV sound system"? What did we do in the days before DVD and home
theatre, eh?


I remain surprised by just how good a well-mixed Dolby 2.0 track can
be, at generating ambience well outside the speaker plane. Until I get
a front projector, I'm unlikely to go for a full 7.1 system, since I
find room-sized sound and a relatively tiny picture *very*
distracting, preventing as good involvement with the film as I get
from 2-channel.

I would have thought that a 30 inch widescreen CRT TV would be good
enough for most purposes! Anyway, I have 2 channel sound from my DVD
player, and the recent addition of a sub has made movies more enjoyable,
even in "2.1" mode!

I thought most DVDs would be Dolby 5.1, and not Dolby 2.0. Or are you
refering to digital TV transmissions?



Or is analogue TV reception in the UK that good? I am assuming you did
the amp shootout in the days before digital TV transmission.


Yes, I was using only TV, VCR and CD sources at that time, although
subsequent DVD use did not reveal any weaknesses in the sound system.

I rarely watch TV with the sound from the stereo system. Somehow or
rather, the sound I get from TV transmission (Oz uses German and not
NICAM stereo) seems "flat, lifeless, dull" (note subjective description
of sound!). I remember my partner watching "Pride and Prejudice" (the
version with Colin Firth in it) with sound from the stereo system, and
it sounded rather ordinary.

And I notice that I have to crank the volume knob on my amp much higher
when watching TV or DVDs to get equivalent SPLs as I would from CDs (no
measurements here, just playing it by ear).

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 23:26:57 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote

snip

I remain surprised by just how good a well-mixed Dolby 2.0 track can
be, at generating ambience well outside the speaker plane.

What, like a valve amp....??

Yup - but with SS you can turn the effect *off* when not watching a
movie!

Until I get
a front projector,

If you're thinking DLP (incredible technology) wait for the the three
chip/prism models to come out and go down in price. (The wheel's been
'reinvented'....!! ;-)

I continue to wait, but at least it's dropped from the 150 grand of
the professional units, through the 60 grand of Runco to the 20 grand
or so of the latest offerings. Once it dips below ten, my flexible
friend will have to start getting really worried!


I'm unlikely to go for a full 7.1 system, since I
find room-sized sound and a relatively tiny picture *very*
distracting, preventing as good involvement with the film as I get
from 2-channel.

Yep, it's a simple equation: Big picture = big sound, anything else is a
waste of time.....

Hey - something on which we agree! Hooda thunk... :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 14:03:44 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:12:58 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

A better competitor would have been the Maggie IIIC,
with the classic ribbon tweeter. Comparing those two, I thought the
Apogee was sweeter and more coherent through the wide midband (where
most of the music lies), and had noticeably deeper bass. The high
treble of the Maggie however, remains as good as it gets.

and the bass on your Apogees is good enough to warrant not having a
subwoofer?

The main panel resonance is at 30Hz, and they're flat to 25Hz, so I
don't feel the need for a sub. Organ music rattles the windows, and
you feel the 'heartbeat' in DSOM thumping your chest....

However, once I get the monster sub built, I'll certainly be seeing if
it can do anything for the main system, rather than just underpinning
movies.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

Tat Chan wrote:

and the bass on your Apogees is good enough to warrant not having a
subwoofer?

Dunno about apogees but my Radfords manage some very comfortable bass
down to about 12-15 Hz. no real need for a sub here, although for films,
perhaps it might be nice.

Good amps all sound the same do they?
 

In article ,
Tat Chan wrote:
If you mean the system, we have mono FM sound which is the equal of FM
radio - assuming a good receiver - and NICAM digital stereo on a
separate carrier. The distribution to the various transmitters is also
digital.

I was thinking of the quality that BBC radio broadcasts are meant to be
famous for and wondered if it was the same for TV broadcasts.

The actual programme chain is of the same high quality, but of course
depends on what it is fed with. Certainly some sound quality on TV is very
good, and this isn't restricted to the BBC.

Have heard good things about NICAM, and I have only just realised that
Oz uses German stereo and not NICAM (though my Sony TV supports NICAM).

Right. The UK was fairly late implementing stereo TV, so was able to take
advantage of digital techniques.


It's capable of giving very satisfactory results - if the material fed
into it is of high quality. Unfortunately, with the universal trend to
low dynamics and heavy processing, this is getting rather rare.

I've never quite worked out why, given that the average TV set has
rather better sound than was once the case, the programme controllers
think we all listen on two inch speakers in a noisy environment...


I use my TV speakers for the majority of shows I watch and find them
good enough for the task.

Thing is that few TVs have really decent built in speakers. The cost would
be prohibitive - as would the bulk. And TVs tend to need updating far more
frequently than a good sound system, so it makes economic sense to keep
them fairly separate.

--
*Women like silent men; they think they're listening.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.