"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...
I had an interesting experience this morning. I have been helping a hi-fi
newbie at work choose his first AV system. When it came to amplifiers I
had advised him to try the Arcam AVR300 which suited his requirements and
would nicely fit on his tv/hi-fi rack. Plus I knew of Arcam's excellent
after sales service and I have an AV8/P7 which I am very happy with.

All was well until someone suggested that it might be interesting to try
the Denon amp at a similar price as it was getting good reviews. It was
wired in to exactly the same cables and speakers and the speaker levels
(balance) were set the same.

My newbie mate was first to indicate his feelings. The Denon was, to my
ears considerably more alive and dynamic than the Arcam both on CD and DVD
music videos. The Arcam was warm and cuddly but very laid back. He decided
on the Denon and it was easy to have a preference.

This friend of mine had never been in a hi-fi dem in his life before and
because we were using a projector for the music DVDs the room was in
almost total darkness there was no subtle facial expressions guiding him
at all. Don't anyone ever tell me all good amps sound the same, they
simply don't, unless of course these amps are both not good. I will
concede that it could have been the DACs that were so different as we did
not use an analogue source but even so...

Incidentally, I wouldn't think the shop wanted that result as the Denon
was 300UKP cheaper.

**Contrary to popular opinion, there may well be differences between some
amplifiers. I commend you to find a copy of Electronics World, August 2004
issue, where the differences between regular Global NFB amplifiers and zero
Global NFB amplifiers is discussed. The article goes some way towards
uncovering what many listeners profess to hear.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Trevor Wilson wrote:

**Contrary to popular opinion, there may well be differences between
some amplifiers. I commend you to find a copy of Electronics World,
August 2004 issue, where the differences between regular Global NFB
amplifiers and zero Global NFB amplifiers is discussed. The article goes
some way towards uncovering what many listeners profess to hear.

I'm confident that one day everything I've had no problem hearing will be
explained, I've not seen this article and neither am I an amplifier expert
so I cannot comment on it.

I would contest the "popular opinion" bit though. I don't know anyone (as
in spoken face to face) who is remotely interested in Hi-Fi who would say
amplifiers sound the same. I only hear that opinion here.

My newbie mate Dave yesterday took about 20 seconds in the dark to decide
he preferred the Denon.


They *all* look good in the dark!! ;-)


I'll be honest, I was more interested in the
projector at the time so I then had to catch up.


What was it? - My mate SN fell on his arse trying to impress me with a £5K
Mitsubishi HC2000 DLP jobbie! Nothing to write home about for that kind of
wedge, I'll tell ya!!

Bob Latham wrote:

I would contest the "popular opinion" bit though. I don't know anyone (as
in spoken face to face) who is remotely interested in Hi-Fi who would say
amplifiers sound the same. I only hear that opinion here.

No. you dont.

the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the same -
that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.

Ian Molton wrote:

the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the same
- that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.

That sounds rather tautological to me.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

In article ,
Wally wrote:
the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the same
- that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.

That sounds rather tautological to me.

Sadly, it's not. You'd be amazed what tricks some 'respected' makers get
up to to make their amps sound 'different' and therefore 'better' at a
simple audition. But these are easily measured. Which is why some of the
more esoteric mags don't like lab tests.

--
*If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple of payments *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Wally wrote:

the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the same
- that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.


That sounds rather tautological to me.


Sadly, it's not. You'd be amazed what tricks some 'respected' makers get
up to to make their amps sound 'different' and therefore 'better' at a
simple audition. But these are easily measured. Which is why some of the
more esoteric mags don't like lab tests.


What other esoteric mags are there? Stereophile publishes measurements,
and HFN&RR probably does (haven't seen a copy for a while, the recent
ones at my newsagent were sealed).

Keith G wrote:

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...

My newbie mate Dave yesterday took about 20 seconds in the dark to decide
he preferred the Denon.

They *all* look good in the dark!! ;-)


as opposed to looking at them in the cold, harsh light of day ... while
being stone cold sober?

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:56:02 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Trevor Wilson wrote:

**Contrary to popular opinion, there may well be differences between
some amplifiers. I commend you to find a copy of Electronics World,
August 2004 issue, where the differences between regular Global NFB
amplifiers and zero Global NFB amplifiers is discussed. The article goes
some way towards uncovering what many listeners profess to hear.

I'm confident that one day everything I've had no problem hearing will be
explained, I've not seen this article and neither am I an amplifier expert
so I cannot comment on it.

I'm confident that you're an arrogant arse who can't hear jack ****.
Care to prove me wrong, prove that you really can hear all this
******** you claim, and collect a grand for your trouble?

If not, then keep your delusions to yourself.

I would contest the "popular opinion" bit though. I don't know anyone (as
in spoken face to face) who is remotely interested in Hi-Fi who would say
amplifiers sound the same. I only hear that opinion here.

So speak to me face to face.

My newbie mate Dave yesterday took about 20 seconds in the dark to decide
he preferred the Denon. I'll be honest, I was more interested in the
projector at the time so I then had to catch up.

Don't tell me - he even heard it from the loo while it was flushing?

:-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:15:45 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Wally wrote:

the opinion you hear hear is that all *COMPETANT* amps sound the same
- that is, all amps, able to drive enough current into the load to
accurately replicate the input signal on the output terminals, will
sound identical.


That sounds rather tautological to me.


Sadly, it's not. You'd be amazed what tricks some 'respected' makers get
up to to make their amps sound 'different' and therefore 'better' at a
simple audition. But these are easily measured. Which is why some of the
more esoteric mags don't like lab tests.

What other esoteric mags are there? Stereophile publishes measurements,
and HFN&RR probably does (haven't seen a copy for a while, the recent
ones at my newsagent were sealed).

The Absolute Sound, Hi-Fi+, UHF, for some. Sterophile and HFN are the
daddies of all mainstream mags, certainly not 'esoteric'.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:15:45 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:


Dave Plowman (News) wrote:




Sadly, it's not. You'd be amazed what tricks some 'respected' makers get
up to to make their amps sound 'different' and therefore 'better' at a
simple audition. But these are easily measured. Which is why some of the
more esoteric mags don't like lab tests.


What other esoteric mags are there? Stereophile publishes measurements,
and HFN&RR probably does (haven't seen a copy for a while, the recent
ones at my newsagent were sealed).


The Absolute Sound, Hi-Fi+, UHF, for some. Sterophile and HFN are the
daddies of all mainstream mags, certainly not 'esoteric'.


I have seen the TAS at my newsagent from time to time.

Btw, I think Stereophile is esoteric compared to What Hi Fi and Hi Fi
Choice!