CD transports and resonance
 

On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 19:49:08 -0000, "Rob"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .
On 06 Nov 2004 15:15:40 GMT, ohawker (Andy
Evans) wrote:

To resolve, employ suitable measurements. Otherwise we (including you)
have no
real idea if the effects you describe have anything to do with the
'causes' you
assume.

Hello Jim - I'm open minded - my assumption is that it's to do with
resonance,
I suppose, but I've been very clear in saying I don't understand how this
happens. I'm not in a position to measure, so my next step is to find
others
who have observed similar things and others who can offer some kind of
explanation based on their own empirical knowledge. Andy

Actually, your assumption is that there *is* a real effect.
--

No, I read that as a finding. The assumption - and I think it's not
unreasonable - is that stabilising a cd mechanism brings audible benefits. I
would find that assumption reasonable, in the sense that it's worthy of
test, because of the massive engineering you see in some CDPs and stated
preferences for particular mechanisms. I have no idea why, btw, but I'd be
curious if I could be bothered.

Basic scientific research - first, you have to establish that there
actually *is* an effect, before looking for a cause. Easiest way has
already been suggested, just rip a file with audio off, one with audio
on, and another pair with the transport bonded to a large mass. If all
four files are identical, forget the 'problem', and do something
useful, like improve your room.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

CD transports and resonance
 

On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 19:42:58 -0000, "Rob"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .
On 06 Nov 2004 11:27:16 GMT, ohawker (Andy
Evans) wrote:

I have no wish to 'endow' (DP) anything. I'm reporting less distortion in
highly modulated passages when a transport is damped.

No, you're reporting that you *think* something is happening. You have
as yet shown no indication that anything *real* is occuring.
--

If I were Andy I'd be feeling like someone asked to prove, for ever,
evidence of something that doesn't exist in the empirical world. Andy can't
prove what he hears, and I'm inclined to think he (of all people) is aware
of placebo-type effects. Why can't you turn this round - instead of asking
him to prove it, you disprove it.

Why? Because common sense and engineering knowledge suggests that
there is no physical effect occuring. Hence, it's up to the person
making the extraordinary claim to provide proof of his claim. We've
seen the 'but I *heard* it!' claim far too often for things like
cables, to simply accept it on faith.

Simple hypothesis - test it and see what
happens.

Exactly! Just rip files from that transport in the four sensible
conditions - music on and off, large 'damping' mass attached and not
attached. Check to see if the files differ. If they do, investigate.
If they don't, forget it.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

CD transports and resonance
 

In article , Andy Evans
wrote:
To resolve, employ suitable measurements. Otherwise we (including you)
have no real idea if the effects you describe have anything to do with
the 'causes' you assume.

Hello Jim - I'm open minded - my assumption is that it's to do with
resonance, I suppose,

I see no reason from what you say to assume it is "resonance" rather than,
for example, simple vibration effects, or a fault of some kind.

but I've been very clear in saying I don't understand how this happens.
I'm not in a position to measure, so my next step is to find others who
have observed similar things and others who can offer some kind of
explanation based on their own empirical knowledge. Andy

The difficulty is that you are hampered in your desire to find others "who
have observed similar things" by only having an unspecific impression of a
possible symptom. Without relevant measurements or tests you can't assume
that someone who thinks they have heard something similar is actually
experinencing the same causal mechanism at work.

The bottom line, I'm afraid, is that if you do development work without the
relevant measurement kit and being able to study/understand the
implications of the measured results, then you can expect to be 'at sea' at
such times. Finding someone else who is also 'at sea' may be comforting,
but may not help much.

Slainte,

Jim


Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

CD transports and resonance
 

you will keep encountering effects which will seem like "mysteries of science"
until you put the required time and effort into tests and evidence that would
allow a systematic explanation. Without this info, there is not much others can
guess. (JL)

That's a completely reasonable point. I've already pointed out some real world
considerations, however. I do have a scope but I've never used it yet, and I
have a raft of things that will come before that as a matter of urgency. For
those without scopes - and there are a few on this ng - reports of building
experiments will be aural. That's a fact of life. Now, commonly builders report
on projects for many reasons:
a) to get help if things go wrong
b) to report particular changes which appear to be sonic improvements in case
others want to consider or try them.This may not be any more significant than
"I heard this, don't really know why"
c) in motivational terms to get support and positive feedback from fellow
enthusiasts for several hours at the drill press and soldering iron. This is
completely reasonable.
And, of course such reports meet with a variety of answers. If I were
personally to divide these into 'reasonable' and 'unreasonable' I'd do so
roughly as follows:
Reasonable:
- I can't help you - you haven't given enough information
- I personally doubt very much that this is possible
- This goes entirely against what I have found
- Are you sure you are not confusing two or more variables

Unreasonable:
- You did not hear what you say you did
- Clearly you are deluded and hearing things
- You are an idiot
- I am vastly cleverer and more technically qualified than you so anything I
say is better than anything you say.
I think you get what I mean. Thanks for the reply, Jim. Andy


=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

CD transports and resonance
 

In article , Andy Evans
wrote:
I'm afraid that I'm a bit sceptical about some of the product designers
(mick)

I don't think it's the product designers so much as the tweakers. I'm
sceptical myself - it seems paradoxical that resonance can effect binary
code.

The answer to the apparent paradox would rest in being able to actually
*check* the binary stream emerging from the player. Once done, this may or
may not show some differences....

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

CD transports and resonance
 

On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 20:22:49 -0000, "Rob"
wrote:

There is a chance - that is, er, the point. It may be slim but I find an
inquiring mind fascinating. How many massive breakthroughs to our
understanding of the physical world have been made by people who were told
'Nope, it's impossible'. Challenge hegemony.

Indeed so. Challenge it by establishing the existence of a real
effect, for starters. As has been pointed out, since the transport
outputs a digital data stream, not audio, this is very simple to do
with any PC.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

CD transports and resonance
 

On 06 Nov 2004 21:11:36 GMT, ohawker (Andy
Evans) wrote:

The enquiring mind is the one that pulls the phenomenon apart to see what
causes it and learns thereby. (DP)

Well now, I still have no progress with anybody that has 'pulled this
phenomenon apart' as you put it, no suggestion of a cause and until I have any
empirical evidence to back up claims that resonance damping has no effect, I
seem to be without anything to learn.

Try determing the real existence of the effect, before looking for a
cause.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

CD transports and resonance
 

CD transports are designed to tolerate such stuff ( vibration et al ). How on
earth do you think one can work in a car otherwise ?

Hello there - I never said it didn't work - that's not the issue. Also the
changes are subtle, and not something you'd have a hope in hell of hearing in a
car. As I've constantly said, this is quite paradoxical.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

CD transports and resonance
 

Jim says: "we have no assurance that your descriptions are a reliable guide
to what actually may be occurring."

That's entirely correct. Andy

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

CD transports and resonance
 

On 06 Nov 2004 21:08:38 GMT, ohawker (Andy
Evans) wrote:

All it takes is for somebody independent to change between two sources in a
random fashion.(snip).. the minimum you would do before even considering
reporting to the world.

Hello Don - now, are you seriously suggesting that I buy another identical
transport (which is an obsolete model), set up a switching device and go out of
my way to get a third party to operate it just in order to make an observation
to a recreational newsgroup? Some parties on this newsgroups seem to think that
before stating anything you should set up a complex DBT which would probably
take several days of one's time and require a variety of equipment and third
parties. Now if I were saying "I have discovered something new, I'm confident
that I'm the first to discover it and I'll be applying for a patent this week
and sending my findings to three scientific journals once validation is
complete" - then, and only then, would I consider that such demands for DBTs
etc had any place on a recreational newsgroup. Andy

Since you don't seem to have any compunction in asking other people to
investigate a 'phenomenon' which most of us with knowledge of such
devices have told you is vanishingly unlikely, why should *we* go out
of our ways to investigate something which *you* won't even take the
trouble to establish as a genuine effect?

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering