"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


Additionally, if the input is sublimely perfect, any amp which
distorts, will ruin the goodness.


Sublimely perfect input??? Got any?

**Several.


You do?

**Yes.

What are they?

**You're joking, right? The list is too long to mention here.





Got an amp which *doesn't* distort?? Not at all???

**Several. None of which exhibit any AUDIBLE distortions. More to the
point: Do YOU have any amplifiers which exhibit no audible distortions,
when used with real-life loudspeakers?


None of my amps disort audibly that I or anyone else here can detect.

**Really? Can you provide your measurements to validate that fact? Here's a
few figures which your amps would need to meet, in order to provide
inaudible levels of distortion:

Frequency response: 20Hz - 20kHz (at, say, 1/3rd full power) +/- 0.1dB,
when operating into a real-world loudspeaker.
Phase error: 20Hz - 20kHz - +/- 5 degrees, when operating into a real-world
loudspeaker.
Output impedance: Lower than 0.1 Ohm, from 20Hz - 20kHz (BTW: This is where
many run-of-the-mill SS amps fail)
THD: Less than 0.1% from 20Hz - 20kHz, at (say) 1/3rd maximum output.
IMD: Less than 0.1%.


(What,
do you think we sit here listening to 'audible distortion'...??? :-)

**Yes.



There's much tub-thumping about 'high fidelity' and 'straight wires with
gain' - like one type of amp absolutely fits these criteria and another
type don't.

**Few amplifiers actually fit that description, WHEN DRIVING REAL
LOUDSPEAKERS.


No need to shout, me auld shagger...

**There is, sometimes.



Quite a few manage it with dummy loads and sine waves, however.

(Not to mention whatever input or amp is used, the speakers and the
room will have the final say, in any case....)

**Strawman, duly noted.


Geekboy 'Usenet' terminology duly noted.....

**Strawman, duly noted.


(You been talking to the other opinionated, non-UK loudmouth that hangs
around in here by any chance?)

**That depends.




Like there are wise guys here and also idiots who put themselves through
a lot of extra effort and expense just to be bloody awkward or summat?
Have a little think for a minute - I don't know of *anyone* who uses
valves (or has got into valves) because he thinks they are *worse* than
ss amplification.....!!

**I do. Quite a few, in fact. One of my clients sold his (rather
excellent) SS amplification and purchased some crappy valve amps. When
questioned about listening to his BEST quality recordings, he admitted
that SS was superior. Valves were, (in his opinion) better for average,
crappy recordings.


That's me sorted then.... :-)



What does that tell you? They got no place in this ng for a start?

**Not at all. I have stated, ad nauseum, that a REALLY GOOD valve
amplifier


You're shouting again - do try to hold it together, there's a good chap.

**Clearly I need to shout. You don't seem to pay attention.



can sound indistinguishable from a good SS amp, given a suitably benign
load impedance. There is nothing wrong with a well designed, well
exectued valve amp. Except that such an amp will almost always cost
significantly more than an approximately equivalent SS model. The
differece come about when we are discussing, cheap, crappy valve amps.
They, almost without exception, exhibit audible distortion, even when
driving modest loads.


Who's discussing cheap, crappy valve amps?

**The original poster.

- That's your usual (what's that
term - 'strawman'?) little injection into the proceedings isn't it??

**Nope.




Or that
can subscribe here if they perform some sort of 'confession' or make an
obeisance to their (wiser) betters?

**Education never hurt anyone.


Agreed - try some.

**What would you suggest? Vaccuum tube theory? Nope. I can get by.




Ever see a valvie give an ss type a hard
time because he doesn't like/use valves?

**Every single day.


Must be hell....

**It is distressing being surrounded by fools.




Ask your self what TF the ss
brigade are so fekkin' scared of that they gotta make the sign of the
cross and start yammering about 'high fidelity' every time valves are
mentioned?

**I don't. REALLY GOOD valve amps easily conform to 'High Fidelity'
standards. No problem. Cheap, crappy valve amps, often do not.


Again with the 'cheap, crappy valve amps' - you really don't have an
argument do you? Why not just say *broken* amps and be done with it???

**Because many people imagine that because it has tubes, it must be good. It
is very important to show that this is not necessarily the case. A valve amp
may be good, or it may be bad.




Take a bloody good look at the Ship Of SS Fools you sail with when you
add to the 'antivalve' content in this ng, it's too ridiculous for
words - 'audio amplifiers' that don't *qualify* for inclusion in an
*audio* newsgroup....???!!!

**And again: REALLY GOOD valve amps are, in every sense, high fidelity
products. They can easily expose the faults in recordings. Equally, they
are easily capable of allowing the goodness shine through.


Stoppit, please - most of us just chuck the ****ing music on and listen to
it. We ain't 'measuring' it or giving it marks out of ten! We play it the
best way we like to hear it - is that really too hard to understand??

**Not at all.


The trouble with you *extreme* CD/SS types is you really got nowhere to
go, have you?

**Now you're engaing in projection. I suggest you do some homework, before
attempting to tar me with a brush you tar others with.

It can't be vinyl, it can't be valves, it can't be MP3s, it can't
be 24/92 or 24/192, it can't be AM, it can't be DAB, it can't be 78s, it
can't be cassettes, it can't be mono etc. etc. etc..

**And I have never said anything of the kind. Except AM (though I did build
a superb, all valve, 4 stage TRF, with a triode infinite impedance detector,
when I was 16.).



Fekkin' priceless......



In fact, the last valve amp, I listened to, which I could easily live
with, was the Audio Research VT100. Trouble is, I regularly listen to an
SS amp which outperforms the VT100 at a significantly lower cost.


I wouldn't worry about that - you're off the hook, ain't yer?

**Huh?




(It might make you feel better to know that I have 3 ss amps here, one
of which is used on a daily basis, OK...??)

**Means nothing to me. There are some crappy SS amps on the market.


Really?

**Yes, really.

That's news to me - can you name one current, freely available (in
the UK, of course) make and model??

**One of the most ordinary, I encounter reasonably frequently is the
Audiolab 8000A. It can deliver gobs of current, but sounds terrible. As for
current models, just pick up any sub-1,000 Squid surround sound receiver.
They all sound horrible. Any brand.



Many are quite good when driving (resistive) dummy loads, but fall flat
on their face, when driving real loudspeakers. Perhaps you need to listen
to an amp which can actually cope with speakers. Any of the small Rotel
models fit that bill quite nicely.


Read *all* my words (or don't bother to respond to any of them) - I've
already told you I have owned and used a number of Rotel amps. I don't
have them any more - now, does that tell you summat??

**Nope. Rotel have managed build some shockers, over the years. The RA02 is
not a shocker.

Kills me the way you
'anti****s' try to fit this group up with your own wacky little prejudices
and then try to wipe it off on those of us who have declared time and time
again we don't give a rat's arse what you or anyone else prefers or
uses....

Still, if it makes you happy.....???

**Nothing makes me happy. I'm a grump.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


Additionally, if the input is sublimely perfect, any amp which
distorts, will ruin the goodness.


Sublimely perfect input??? Got any?

**Several.


You do?

**Yes.

What are they?

**You're joking, right? The list is too long to mention here.


Oh, sure...

OK, just two or three then - to give us an idea. Only we get to hear all
about this 'crappy amps' and 'perfect inputs' but we *never* get any
examples. The reason is too obvious to be worth a mention......







Got an amp which *doesn't* distort?? Not at all???

**Several. None of which exhibit any AUDIBLE distortions. More to the
point: Do YOU have any amplifiers which exhibit no audible distortions,
when used with real-life loudspeakers?


None of my amps disort audibly that I or anyone else here can detect.

**Really? Can you provide your measurements to validate that fact?


Wake up dummy - read the words 'I' and 'can detect' again, also try to get
the notion that just a few of us actually *listen* to the music and don't
just watch it on a scope.....


snip bollockology


(What,
do you think we sit here listening to 'audible distortion'...??? :-)

**Yes.


Well, I reckon Swim's a better judge than yew, me auld china (played clart
in the presence of Queenie at the RCM and a colleague of Tony Michaelson for
3 years or so) so it'll be alright if I go along with her opinion and
discard yours, will it?





There's much tub-thumping about 'high fidelity' and 'straight wires
with gain' - like one type of amp absolutely fits these criteria and
another type don't.

**Few amplifiers actually fit that description, WHEN DRIVING REAL
LOUDSPEAKERS.


No need to shout, me auld shagger...

**There is, sometimes.


No, really, there isn't....





Quite a few manage it with dummy loads and sine waves, however.

(Not to mention whatever input or amp is used, the speakers and the
room will have the final say, in any case....)

**Strawman, duly noted.


Geekboy 'Usenet' terminology duly noted.....

**Strawman, duly noted.


Geekboy 'Usenet' terminology duly noted.....



(You been talking to the other opinionated, non-UK loudmouth that hangs
around in here by any chance?)

**That depends.


Thought as much....


What does that tell you? They got no place in this ng for a start?

**Not at all. I have stated, ad nauseum, that a REALLY GOOD valve
amplifier


You're shouting again - do try to hold it together, there's a good chap.

**Clearly I need to shout. You don't seem to pay attention.


Won't get (or keep) my attention by shouting muchacho, saying something
interesting is all it takes - try it.....


Who's discussing cheap, crappy valve amps?

**The original poster.


Oh ah? And where do you see that, then? Nothing in there that I could see -
he mentions a valve amp (preferably DIY) and that he's got a budget system -
make the classic mistake of confusing the two different statements, did
we??? ;-)



- That's your usual (what's that
term - 'strawman'?) little injection into the proceedings isn't it??

**Nope.


Not nope - yep...





Or that
can subscribe here if they perform some sort of 'confession' or make an
obeisance to their (wiser) betters?

**Education never hurt anyone.


Agreed - try some.

**What would you suggest? Vaccuum tube theory? Nope. I can get by.


Start with 'Ubu Roi' by Alfred Jarry (1896) - it's an allegory of Digital
Theory predating the concept by nearly a hundred years. You should find it
interesting.....






Ever see a valvie give an ss type a hard
time because he doesn't like/use valves?

**Every single day.


Must be hell....

**It is distressing being surrounded by fools.


There there, never mind - if you don't look straight at them, they'll all go
away soon....


Again with the 'cheap, crappy valve amps' - you really don't have an
argument do you? Why not just say *broken* amps and be done with it???

**Because many people imagine that because it has tubes, it must be good.

???


It is very important to show that this is not necessarily the case.


It is?? To whom??


A valve amp may be good, or it may be bad.


Stressy, isn't it...??? :-)


Stoppit, please - most of us just chuck the ****ing music on and listen
to it. We ain't 'measuring' it or giving it marks out of ten! We play it
the best way we like to hear it - is that really too hard to understand??

**Not at all.


Note to Jim Lesurf - if I don't see you pulling this clown up for not
snipping soon, I'll start to feel a bit 'singled out' - know wot I mean?



The trouble with you *extreme* CD/SS types is you really got nowhere to
go, have you?

**Now you're engaing in projection. I suggest you do some homework, before
attempting to tar me with a brush you tar others with.

It can't be vinyl, it can't be valves, it can't be MP3s, it can't
be 24/92 or 24/192, it can't be AM, it can't be DAB, it can't be 78s, it
can't be cassettes, it can't be mono etc. etc. etc..

**And I have never said anything of the kind. Except AM (though I did
build a superb, all valve, 4 stage TRF, with a triode infinite impedance
detector, when I was 16.).


I'll say it again: The trouble with you *extreme* CD/SS types is you really
got nowhere to go, have you?



**Means nothing to me. There are some crappy SS amps on the market.


Really?

**Yes, really.

That's news to me - can you name one current, freely available (in
the UK, of course) make and model??

**One of the most ordinary, I encounter reasonably frequently is the
Audiolab 8000A. It can deliver gobs of current, but sounds terrible. As
for current models, just pick up any sub-1,000 Squid surround sound
receiver. They all sound horrible. Any brand.


Ooh, that's going to ruffle the feathers of someone here.....


Kills me the way you
'anti****s' try to fit this group up with your own wacky little
prejudices and then try to wipe it off on those of us who have declared
time and time again we don't give a rat's arse what you or anyone else
prefers or uses....

Still, if it makes you happy.....???

**Nothing makes me happy. I'm a grump.


Not as grumpy as me - I've got the sodding 'flu and haven't had a wink of
sleep all night......

(Might get mi second Chinky valve amp today tho' - that'll cheer me up! :-)

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


Additionally, if the input is sublimely perfect, any amp which
distorts, will ruin the goodness.


Sublimely perfect input??? Got any?

**Several.


You do?

**Yes.

What are they?

**You're joking, right? The list is too long to mention here.


Oh, sure...

OK, just two or three then - to give us an idea. Only we get to hear all
about this 'crappy amps' and 'perfect inputs' but we *never* get any
examples. The reason is too obvious to be worth a mention......

**I fail to see the point, but I'll grab a couple from my shelf, above my
bench, which I use for test purposes.
* Mary Black - Mission Demonstration disk
* Brahms - Cello Concertos (RCA)
* Chet Atkins - The Essential Chet Atkins
* Neil Diamond - You Don't Bring Me Flowers
* Christine Anu - Christine Anu

Happy now? What purpose did that serve.








Got an amp which *doesn't* distort?? Not at all???

**Several. None of which exhibit any AUDIBLE distortions. More to the
point: Do YOU have any amplifiers which exhibit no audible distortions,
when used with real-life loudspeakers?


None of my amps disort audibly that I or anyone else here can detect.

**Really? Can you provide your measurements to validate that fact?


Wake up dummy - read the words 'I' and 'can detect' again, also try to get
the notion that just a few of us actually *listen* to the music and don't
just watch it on a scope.....

**Now I understand. You KNOW that your amplifiers do not audibly distort,
but you have no way yo prove it. That makes sense.

I have news for you: If your amps do not meet or exceed the parameters I
have outlined, they do, in fact, audibly distort.



snip bollockology

restore facts and figures, which you seem to be extremely uncomfortable in
discussing

Frequency response: 20Hz - 20kHz (at, say, 1/3rd full power) +/- 0.1dB,
when operating into a real-world loudspeaker.
Phase error: 20Hz - 20kHz - +/- 5 degrees, when operating into a real-world
loudspeaker.
Output impedance: Lower than 0.1 Ohm, from 20Hz - 20kHz (BTW: This is where
many run-of-the-mill SS amps fail)
THD: Less than 0.1% from 20Hz - 20kHz, at (say) 1/3rd maximum output.
IMD: Less than 0.1%.




(What,
do you think we sit here listening to 'audible distortion'...??? :-)

**Yes.


Well, I reckon Swim's a better judge than yew, me auld china (played clart
in the presence of Queenie at the RCM and a colleague of Tony Michaelson
for 3 years or so) so it'll be alright if I go along with her opinion and
discard yours, will it?

**I have no idea who "Swim" is. So, no.






There's much tub-thumping about 'high fidelity' and 'straight wires
with gain' - like one type of amp absolutely fits these criteria and
another type don't.

**Few amplifiers actually fit that description, WHEN DRIVING REAL
LOUDSPEAKERS.


No need to shout, me auld shagger...

**There is, sometimes.


No, really, there isn't....

**Sure there is. You still seem to be hung up on:

Valves = Good
Transistors = Bad

This is faulty logic. There are some very fine valve amplifiers. There are
some really bad valve amplifiers. There are some very fine SS amplifiers and
some really bad SS amplifiers. Just because an amplifier uses a particular
active devices, does not automatically convey a measure of goodness (or
badness) on that product. However, at a given price level (assuming good
design), a SS amplifier will always outperform a valve amp.






Quite a few manage it with dummy loads and sine waves, however.

(Not to mention whatever input or amp is used, the speakers and the
room will have the final say, in any case....)

**Strawman, duly noted.


Geekboy 'Usenet' terminology duly noted.....

**Strawman, duly noted.


Geekboy 'Usenet' terminology duly noted.....

**Your further strawman is duly noted.




(You been talking to the other opinionated, non-UK loudmouth that hangs
around in here by any chance?)

**That depends.


Thought as much....


What does that tell you? They got no place in this ng for a start?

**Not at all. I have stated, ad nauseum, that a REALLY GOOD valve
amplifier


You're shouting again - do try to hold it together, there's a good chap.

**Clearly I need to shout. You don't seem to pay attention.


Won't get (or keep) my attention by shouting muchacho, saying something
interesting is all it takes - try it.....

**I try to. You just ignore the truth. Just try to follow my logic, once in
awhile.



Who's discussing cheap, crappy valve amps?

**The original poster.


Oh ah? And where do you see that, then? Nothing in there that I could
see - he mentions a valve amp (preferably DIY) and that he's got a budget
system - make the classic mistake of confusing the two different
statements, did we??? ;-)

**Nope. A DIY'er is, by definition, after a bargain (or an education).
Further, it is safe to assume that his choice of speakers suggests that he
is on a tight budget. If I am wrong, I will be happy to retract my
assumption.




- That's your usual (what's that
term - 'strawman'?) little injection into the proceedings isn't it??

**Nope.


Not nope - yep...

**I could have said: "Non-sequitur".






Or that
can subscribe here if they perform some sort of 'confession' or make
an obeisance to their (wiser) betters?

**Education never hurt anyone.


Agreed - try some.

**What would you suggest? Vaccuum tube theory? Nope. I can get by.


Start with 'Ubu Roi' by Alfred Jarry (1896) - it's an allegory of Digital
Theory predating the concept by nearly a hundred years. You should find it
interesting.....

**Why? I am not discussing digital. I am discussing signals in the analogue
domain.







Ever see a valvie give an ss type a hard
time because he doesn't like/use valves?

**Every single day.


Must be hell....

**It is distressing being surrounded by fools.


There there, never mind - if you don't look straight at them, they'll all
go away soon....


Again with the 'cheap, crappy valve amps' - you really don't have an
argument do you? Why not just say *broken* amps and be done with it???

**Because many people imagine that because it has tubes, it must be good.

???


It is very important to show that this is not necessarily the case.


It is?? To whom??

**To the poor fools who have been deluded by the marketers of shoddy valve
amps, masquerading as decent products.



A valve amp may be good, or it may be bad.


Stressy, isn't it...??? :-)

**Not at all. A quick set of measurements will soon sort out the good and
the bad.



Stoppit, please - most of us just chuck the ****ing music on and listen
to it. We ain't 'measuring' it or giving it marks out of ten! We play it
the best way we like to hear it - is that really too hard to
understand??

**Not at all.


Note to Jim Lesurf - if I don't see you pulling this clown up for not
snipping soon, I'll start to feel a bit 'singled out' - know wot I mean?



The trouble with you *extreme* CD/SS types is you really got nowhere to
go, have you?

**Now you're engaing in projection. I suggest you do some homework,
before attempting to tar me with a brush you tar others with.

It can't be vinyl, it can't be valves, it can't be MP3s, it can't
be 24/92 or 24/192, it can't be AM, it can't be DAB, it can't be 78s, it
can't be cassettes, it can't be mono etc. etc. etc..

**And I have never said anything of the kind. Except AM (though I did
build a superb, all valve, 4 stage TRF, with a triode infinite impedance
detector, when I was 16.).


I'll say it again: The trouble with you *extreme* CD/SS types is you
really got nowhere to go, have you?

**More projection. Do your homework, before shooting your mouth off. Here's
where you have to prove that I have ever defended 16/44 digital as being the
"ultimate" signal source. For the record:
* I use MP3 in my car. It is entirely adequate, in that environment.
* I stopped using cassettes a couple of years ago. (I used to own a
Nakamichi 100ZXL)
* I listen to AM radio, every Saturday morning. It's a local show called The
Weekend Woodies. http://www.abc.net.au/sydney/photogalleries/woodies/
* I have always felt that 16/44 digital is inadequate to compete with the
VERY BEST (sorry to shout) vinyl available.
* I have always detested 78s.
* I like 15ips reel to reel.





**Means nothing to me. There are some crappy SS amps on the market.


Really?

**Yes, really.

That's news to me - can you name one current, freely available (in
the UK, of course) make and model??

**One of the most ordinary, I encounter reasonably frequently is the
Audiolab 8000A. It can deliver gobs of current, but sounds terrible. As
for current models, just pick up any sub-1,000 Squid surround sound
receiver. They all sound horrible. Any brand.


Ooh, that's going to ruffle the feathers of someone here.....

**I don't give a ****. It is a horrible sounding amplifier (yes, I've
compared it blind).



Kills me the way you
'anti****s' try to fit this group up with your own wacky little
prejudices and then try to wipe it off on those of us who have declared
time and time again we don't give a rat's arse what you or anyone else
prefers or uses....

Still, if it makes you happy.....???

**Nothing makes me happy. I'm a grump.


Not as grumpy as me - I've got the sodding 'flu and haven't had a wink of
sleep all night......

**There are two Aussie inventions you should (have) tried. It is too late
now, as you need to use them at the first signs.
Tamiflu and Relenza. I find them to be remarkably effective (and expensive).


(Might get mi second Chinky valve amp today tho' - that'll cheer me up!
:-)

**You deserve it. If you must, you really should try to lay your hands on a
second hand ARC VT100. Superb amp.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

* Chet Atkins - The Essential Chet Atkins

Trevor - you might know this. I remember hearing a lovely track by Chet, solo
guitar - his arrangement of "When you wish upon a star". What CD is that on,
and are there any more solo recordings like that - it's a little gem. Andy

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


Additionally, if the input is sublimely perfect, any amp which
distorts, will ruin the goodness.


Sublimely perfect input??? Got any?

**Several.


You do?

**Yes.

What are they?

**You're joking, right? The list is too long to mention here.


Oh, sure...

OK, just two or three then - to give us an idea. Only we get to hear all
about this 'crappy amps' and 'perfect inputs' but we *never* get any
examples. The reason is too obvious to be worth a mention......

**I fail to see the point, but I'll grab a couple from my shelf, above my
bench, which I use for test purposes.
* Mary Black - Mission Demonstration disk
* Brahms - Cello Concertos (RCA)
* Chet Atkins - The Essential Chet Atkins
* Neil Diamond - You Don't Bring Me Flowers
* Christine Anu - Christine Anu

Happy now? What purpose did that serve.


Ah.

I thought you were talking about inputs as in *devices*......

(You know - what you get when you flick the 'Input Selector'....???)









Got an amp which *doesn't* distort?? Not at all???

**Several. None of which exhibit any AUDIBLE distortions. More to the
point: Do YOU have any amplifiers which exhibit no audible
distortions, when used with real-life loudspeakers?


None of my amps disort audibly that I or anyone else here can detect.

**Really? Can you provide your measurements to validate that fact?


Wake up dummy - read the words 'I' and 'can detect' again, also try to
get the notion that just a few of us actually *listen* to the music and
don't just watch it on a scope.....

**Now I understand. You KNOW that your amplifiers do not audibly distort,
but you have no way yo prove it. That makes sense.


Certainly it does - if music/voices on my kit didn't sound exactly like I
expect it/them to, I'd get rid.



I have news for you: If your amps do not meet or exceed the parameters I
have outlined, they do, in fact, audibly distort.


Not that I can detect - why do you have a problem grasping this?





snip bollockology

restore facts and figures, which you seem to be extremely uncomfortable
in discussing

Frequency response: 20Hz - 20kHz (at, say, 1/3rd full power) +/- 0.1dB,
when operating into a real-world loudspeaker.
Phase error: 20Hz - 20kHz - +/- 5 degrees, when operating into a
real-world
loudspeaker.
Output impedance: Lower than 0.1 Ohm, from 20Hz - 20kHz (BTW: This is
where
many run-of-the-mill SS amps fail)
THD: Less than 0.1% from 20Hz - 20kHz, at (say) 1/3rd maximum output.
IMD: Less than 0.1%.


Interesting/useful to a manufacturer or designer, of little importance to
the end user. Mention 'distortion' and 'flat response' to one or two people
I know in the racket and they'll laugh their arses off!





(What,
do you think we sit here listening to 'audible distortion'...??? :-)

**Yes.


Well, I reckon Swim's a better judge than yew, me auld china (played
clart in the presence of Queenie at the RCM and a colleague of Tony
Michaelson for 3 years or so) so it'll be alright if I go along with her
opinion and discard yours, will it?

**I have no idea who "Swim" is. So, no.


Swim = SWMBO

I put a clart piece on she says it's OK. I put it on a valve amp she says
it's 'very real'. I put it on the triode amp she says it's the 'most real
yet' - who am I to argue???







There's much tub-thumping about 'high fidelity' and 'straight wires
with gain' - like one type of amp absolutely fits these criteria and
another type don't.

**Few amplifiers actually fit that description, WHEN DRIVING REAL
LOUDSPEAKERS.


No need to shout, me auld shagger...

**There is, sometimes.


No, really, there isn't....

**Sure there is. You still seem to be hung up on:

Valves = Good
Transistors = Bad


Hmmm...


This is faulty logic.


You're not kidding....


There are some very fine valve amplifiers. There are some really bad valve
amplifiers. There are some very fine SS amplifiers and some really bad SS
amplifiers. Just because an amplifier uses a particular active devices,
does not automatically convey a measure of goodness (or badness) on that
product. However, at a given price level (assuming good design), a SS
amplifier will always outperform a valve amp.


I'm not sure what this is all leading up to. First off, I love all these
'qualified' statements we keep seeing like 'crappy valve amps' and 'at a
given price level', 'good design' etc. etc.

Next, I'm not nearly as convinced as you seem to be that we're tit-deep in
'bad' amplifiers. Call it a sheltered upbringing if you like, but I'm not
sure I've ever heard a *bad* amplifier....???

(Are bad amps like fleas? - The more you seek, the more you find and the
more you find, the happier you be??)

Then you seem to be very comfortable presuming that I would choose *any*
valve amp over *any* ss amp, come what may?? Wrong, asitappens, but I've yet
to hear an ss amp I could live with other than during the single week's hot
weather we get in the UK...

(First thing to go with ss is the 'soundstage', you see.....)







Quite a few manage it with dummy loads and sine waves, however.

(Not to mention whatever input or amp is used, the speakers and the
room will have the final say, in any case....)

**Strawman, duly noted.


Geekboy 'Usenet' terminology duly noted.....

**Strawman, duly noted.


Geekboy 'Usenet' terminology duly noted.....

**Your further strawman is duly noted.


Your further Geekboy 'Usenet' terminology duly noted.....





(You been talking to the other opinionated, non-UK loudmouth that hangs
around in here by any chance?)

**That depends.


Thought as much....


What does that tell you? They got no place in this ng for a start?

**Not at all. I have stated, ad nauseum, that a REALLY GOOD valve
amplifier


You're shouting again - do try to hold it together, there's a good
chap.

**Clearly I need to shout. You don't seem to pay attention.


Won't get (or keep) my attention by shouting muchacho, saying something
interesting is all it takes - try it.....

**I try to. You just ignore the truth. Just try to follow my logic, once
in awhile.


You have no logic, you have only prejudice and dogma....





Who's discussing cheap, crappy valve amps?

**The original poster.


Oh ah? And where do you see that, then? Nothing in there that I could
see - he mentions a valve amp (preferably DIY) and that he's got a budget
system - make the classic mistake of confusing the two different
statements, did we??? ;-)

**Nope. A DIY'er is, by definition, after a bargain (or an education).
Further, it is safe to assume that his choice of speakers suggests that he
is on a tight budget. If I am wrong, I will be happy to retract my
assumption.


Absolute ******** - a very unsafe presumption at best...






- That's your usual (what's that
term - 'strawman'?) little injection into the proceedings isn't it??

**Nope.


Not nope - yep...

**I could have said: "Non-sequitur".


I could have said "Non est ad astra mollis e terris via
".....







Or that
can subscribe here if they perform some sort of 'confession' or make
an obeisance to their (wiser) betters?

**Education never hurt anyone.


Agreed - try some.

**What would you suggest? Vaccuum tube theory? Nope. I can get by.


Start with 'Ubu Roi' by Alfred Jarry (1896) - it's an allegory of Digital
Theory predating the concept by nearly a hundred years. You should find
it interesting.....

**Why? I am not discussing digital. I am discussing signals in the
analogue domain.


That too...








Ever see a valvie give an ss type a hard
time because he doesn't like/use valves?

**Every single day.


Must be hell....

**It is distressing being surrounded by fools.


There there, never mind - if you don't look straight at them, they'll all
go away soon....


Again with the 'cheap, crappy valve amps' - you really don't have an
argument do you? Why not just say *broken* amps and be done with it???

**Because many people imagine that because it has tubes, it must be
good.

???


It is very important to show that this is not necessarily the case.


It is?? To whom??

**To the poor fools who have been deluded by the marketers of shoddy valve
amps, masquerading as decent products.


You must have 'em on every street corner.....

(Paid the full ML 'Red Rose' price for a chinky amp, did they?)





A valve amp may be good, or it may be bad.


Stressy, isn't it...??? :-)

**Not at all. A quick set of measurements will soon sort out the good and
the bad.



Stoppit, please - most of us just chuck the ****ing music on and listen
to it. We ain't 'measuring' it or giving it marks out of ten! We play
it the best way we like to hear it - is that really too hard to
understand??

**Not at all.


Note to Jim Lesurf - if I don't see you pulling this clown up for not
snipping soon, I'll start to feel a bit 'singled out' - know wot I mean?


He ain't snipping, I ain't snipping - we've done all this before.....






The trouble with you *extreme* CD/SS types is you really got nowhere to
go, have you?

**Now you're engaing in projection. I suggest you do some homework,
before attempting to tar me with a brush you tar others with.

It can't be vinyl, it can't be valves, it can't be MP3s, it can't
be 24/92 or 24/192, it can't be AM, it can't be DAB, it can't be 78s,
it can't be cassettes, it can't be mono etc. etc. etc..

**And I have never said anything of the kind. Except AM (though I did
build a superb, all valve, 4 stage TRF, with a triode infinite impedance
detector, when I was 16.).


I'll say it again: The trouble with you *extreme* CD/SS types is you
really got nowhere to go, have you?

**More projection. Do your homework, before shooting your mouth off.
Here's where you have to prove that I have ever defended 16/44 digital as
being the "ultimate" signal source.


I don't have to prove diddly dick.....


For the record:


Records are not digital....


* I use MP3 in my car. It is entirely adequate, in that environment.
* I stopped using cassettes a couple of years ago. (I used to own a
Nakamichi 100ZXL)
* I listen to AM radio, every Saturday morning. It's a local show called
The Weekend Woodies. http://www.abc.net.au/sydney/photogalleries/woodies/
* I have always felt that 16/44 digital is inadequate to compete with the
VERY BEST (sorry to shout) vinyl available.


First thing you've said that made any sense....


* I have always detested 78s.
* I like 15ips reel to reel.





**Means nothing to me. There are some crappy SS amps on the market.


Really?

**Yes, really.

That's news to me - can you name one current, freely available (in
the UK, of course) make and model??

**One of the most ordinary, I encounter reasonably frequently is the
Audiolab 8000A. It can deliver gobs of current, but sounds terrible. As
for current models, just pick up any sub-1,000 Squid surround sound
receiver. They all sound horrible. Any brand.


Ooh, that's going to ruffle the feathers of someone here.....

**I don't give a ****. It is a horrible sounding amplifier (yes, I've
compared it blind).


I've never heard one - all I've ever heard is that they are supposed to be
good???




Kills me the way you
'anti****s' try to fit this group up with your own wacky little
prejudices and then try to wipe it off on those of us who have declared
time and time again we don't give a rat's arse what you or anyone else
prefers or uses....

Still, if it makes you happy.....???

**Nothing makes me happy. I'm a grump.


Not as grumpy as me - I've got the sodding 'flu and haven't had a wink of
sleep all night......

**There are two Aussie inventions you should (have) tried. It is too late
now, as you need to use them at the first signs.
Tamiflu and Relenza. I find them to be remarkably effective (and
expensive).


We have Lemsip in the UK.....

(Says it all really.... :-)




(Might get mi second Chinky valve amp today tho' - that'll cheer me up!
:-)

**You deserve it. If you must, you really should try to lay your hands on
a second hand ARC VT100. Superb amp.


Sounds a little out of my price range.....

Question: Why *Rage* Audio...???

(Sounds a little uptight to me...... ;-)

Keith G wrote:

Certainly it does - if music/voices on my kit didn't sound exactly like I
expect it/them to, I'd get rid.

Out of curiosity, whats your reference to 'what they should sound like' ?

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


Additionally, if the input is sublimely perfect, any amp which
distorts, will ruin the goodness.


Sublimely perfect input??? Got any?

**Several.


You do?

**Yes.

What are they?

**You're joking, right? The list is too long to mention here.


Oh, sure...

OK, just two or three then - to give us an idea. Only we get to hear all
about this 'crappy amps' and 'perfect inputs' but we *never* get any
examples. The reason is too obvious to be worth a mention......

**I fail to see the point, but I'll grab a couple from my shelf, above my
bench, which I use for test purposes.
* Mary Black - Mission Demonstration disk
* Brahms - Cello Concertos (RCA)
* Chet Atkins - The Essential Chet Atkins
* Neil Diamond - You Don't Bring Me Flowers
* Christine Anu - Christine Anu

Happy now? What purpose did that serve.


Ah.

I thought you were talking about inputs as in *devices*......

(You know - what you get when you flick the 'Input Selector'....???)









Got an amp which *doesn't* distort?? Not at all???

**Several. None of which exhibit any AUDIBLE distortions. More to the
point: Do YOU have any amplifiers which exhibit no audible
distortions, when used with real-life loudspeakers?


None of my amps disort audibly that I or anyone else here can detect.

**Really? Can you provide your measurements to validate that fact?


Wake up dummy - read the words 'I' and 'can detect' again, also try to
get the notion that just a few of us actually *listen* to the music and
don't just watch it on a scope.....

**Now I understand. You KNOW that your amplifiers do not audibly distort,
but you have no way yo prove it. That makes sense.


Certainly it does - if music/voices on my kit didn't sound exactly like I
expect it/them to, I'd get rid.

**So, you have no way to verify what you think it should sound like? How do
you know that your source is accurate?




I have news for you: If your amps do not meet or exceed the parameters I
have outlined, they do, in fact, audibly distort.


Not that I can detect - why do you have a problem grasping this?

**You can't detect their distortions, because you've never measured them.






snip bollockology

restore facts and figures, which you seem to be extremely uncomfortable
in discussing

Frequency response: 20Hz - 20kHz (at, say, 1/3rd full power) +/- 0.1dB,
when operating into a real-world loudspeaker.
Phase error: 20Hz - 20kHz - +/- 5 degrees, when operating into a
real-world
loudspeaker.
Output impedance: Lower than 0.1 Ohm, from 20Hz - 20kHz (BTW: This is
where
many run-of-the-mill SS amps fail)
THD: Less than 0.1% from 20Hz - 20kHz, at (say) 1/3rd maximum output.
IMD: Less than 0.1%.


Interesting/useful to a manufacturer or designer, of little importance to
the end user.

**Nope. Absolutely critical to the end user. There is no point building a
system around a faulty component.

Mention 'distortion' and 'flat response' to one or two people
I know in the racket and they'll laugh their arses off!

**Sure. There's stupid people in the racket. I'm in the racket (and have
been for 35 years) and consider those parameters to be very important. In
fact, unless a product meets those basic criteria, there's little point
considering it at all, since it will affect the sound of any decent system
negatively.






(What,
do you think we sit here listening to 'audible distortion'...??? :-)

**Yes.


Well, I reckon Swim's a better judge than yew, me auld china (played
clart in the presence of Queenie at the RCM and a colleague of Tony
Michaelson for 3 years or so) so it'll be alright if I go along with her
opinion and discard yours, will it?

**I have no idea who "Swim" is. So, no.


Swim = SWMBO

I put a clart piece on she says it's OK. I put it on a valve amp she says
it's 'very real'. I put it on the triode amp she says it's the 'most real
yet' - who am I to argue???

**I'm assuming that since her sensibilities coincide with yours, you won't.








There's much tub-thumping about 'high fidelity' and 'straight wires
with gain' - like one type of amp absolutely fits these criteria and
another type don't.

**Few amplifiers actually fit that description, WHEN DRIVING REAL
LOUDSPEAKERS.


No need to shout, me auld shagger...

**There is, sometimes.


No, really, there isn't....

**Sure there is. You still seem to be hung up on:

Valves = Good
Transistors = Bad


Hmmm...


This is faulty logic.


You're not kidding....


There are some very fine valve amplifiers. There are some really bad valve
amplifiers. There are some very fine SS amplifiers and some really bad SS
amplifiers. Just because an amplifier uses a particular active devices,
does not automatically convey a measure of goodness (or badness) on that
product. However, at a given price level (assuming good design), a SS
amplifier will always outperform a valve amp.


I'm not sure what this is all leading up to. First off, I love all these
'qualified' statements we keep seeing like 'crappy valve amps' and 'at a
given price level', 'good design' etc. etc.

Next, I'm not nearly as convinced as you seem to be that we're tit-deep in
'bad' amplifiers. Call it a sheltered upbringing if you like, but I'm not
sure I've ever heard a *bad* amplifier....???

**I have. Lots of them. Including the afore-mentioned Audiolab 8000A.


(Are bad amps like fleas? - The more you seek, the more you find and the
more you find, the happier you be??)

**In my business I get to see *a lot* of amplifiers. I usually listen to the
ones which demonstrate overtly interesting results on the test equipment.
The most recent one being a Linn Intek. Quite a good amp, BTW.


Then you seem to be very comfortable presuming that I would choose *any*
valve amp over *any* ss amp, come what may?? Wrong, asitappens, but I've
yet to hear an ss amp I could live with other than during the single
week's hot weather we get in the UK...

**[GAG] Hot weather? You have no idea what hot weather really is. Trust me
on this. As it happens, the amp I use is specifically designed to operate at
an internal temperature of 60oC, regardless of the outside temperature
(provided the outside temperature does not exceed 60oC, of course).

As for your selection of an SS amp, I suggest you use similar criteria to
that which would affect your choice of valve amps. Here's a few criteria you
could consider:
* Low Global NFB.
* No current limiters (or current limiters which operate in a benign
fashion).
* A good, big power supply, relative to power output. IOW: A nice, heavy,
low power output amp.
* Moderately high Class A operation.
* Collectors coupled to loads.

The afore-mentioned Linn Intek comes close to these parameters.


(First thing to go with ss is the 'soundstage', you see.....)

**Not necessarily. Soundstage is affected by several things. All of which
can be addressed quite easily.








Quite a few manage it with dummy loads and sine waves, however.

(Not to mention whatever input or amp is used, the speakers and the
room will have the final say, in any case....)

**Strawman, duly noted.


Geekboy 'Usenet' terminology duly noted.....

**Strawman, duly noted.


Geekboy 'Usenet' terminology duly noted.....

**Your further strawman is duly noted.


Your further Geekboy 'Usenet' terminology duly noted.....





(You been talking to the other opinionated, non-UK loudmouth that
hangs around in here by any chance?)

**That depends.


Thought as much....


What does that tell you? They got no place in this ng for a start?

**Not at all. I have stated, ad nauseum, that a REALLY GOOD valve
amplifier


You're shouting again - do try to hold it together, there's a good
chap.

**Clearly I need to shout. You don't seem to pay attention.


Won't get (or keep) my attention by shouting muchacho, saying something
interesting is all it takes - try it.....

**I try to. You just ignore the truth. Just try to follow my logic, once
in awhile.


You have no logic, you have only prejudice and dogma....

**Nope. I have logic and experience on my side.






Who's discussing cheap, crappy valve amps?

**The original poster.


Oh ah? And where do you see that, then? Nothing in there that I could
see - he mentions a valve amp (preferably DIY) and that he's got a
budget system - make the classic mistake of confusing the two different
statements, did we??? ;-)

**Nope. A DIY'er is, by definition, after a bargain (or an education).
Further, it is safe to assume that his choice of speakers suggests that
he is on a tight budget. If I am wrong, I will be happy to retract my
assumption.


Absolute ******** - a very unsafe presumption at best...






- That's your usual (what's that
term - 'strawman'?) little injection into the proceedings isn't it??

**Nope.


Not nope - yep...

**I could have said: "Non-sequitur".


I could have said "Non est ad astra mollis e terris via
".....

**You could, but I wouldn't have a clue about what you are saying.








Or that
can subscribe here if they perform some sort of 'confession' or make
an obeisance to their (wiser) betters?

**Education never hurt anyone.


Agreed - try some.

**What would you suggest? Vaccuum tube theory? Nope. I can get by.


Start with 'Ubu Roi' by Alfred Jarry (1896) - it's an allegory of
Digital Theory predating the concept by nearly a hundred years. You
should find it interesting.....

**Why? I am not discussing digital. I am discussing signals in the
analogue domain.


That too...








Ever see a valvie give an ss type a hard
time because he doesn't like/use valves?

**Every single day.


Must be hell....

**It is distressing being surrounded by fools.


There there, never mind - if you don't look straight at them, they'll
all go away soon....


Again with the 'cheap, crappy valve amps' - you really don't have an
argument do you? Why not just say *broken* amps and be done with it???

**Because many people imagine that because it has tubes, it must be
good.

???


It is very important to show that this is not necessarily the case.


It is?? To whom??

**To the poor fools who have been deluded by the marketers of shoddy
valve amps, masquerading as decent products.


You must have 'em on every street corner.....

**Pretty much.


(Paid the full ML 'Red Rose' price for a chinky amp, did they?)

**Worse. Some have actually paid real Dollars for Audio Note amps.






A valve amp may be good, or it may be bad.


Stressy, isn't it...??? :-)

**Not at all. A quick set of measurements will soon sort out the good and
the bad.



Stoppit, please - most of us just chuck the ****ing music on and
listen to it. We ain't 'measuring' it or giving it marks out of ten!
We play it the best way we like to hear it - is that really too hard
to understand??

**Not at all.


Note to Jim Lesurf - if I don't see you pulling this clown up for not
snipping soon, I'll start to feel a bit 'singled out' - know wot I mean?


He ain't snipping, I ain't snipping - we've done all this before.....






The trouble with you *extreme* CD/SS types is you really got nowhere
to go, have you?

**Now you're engaing in projection. I suggest you do some homework,
before attempting to tar me with a brush you tar others with.

It can't be vinyl, it can't be valves, it can't be MP3s, it can't
be 24/92 or 24/192, it can't be AM, it can't be DAB, it can't be 78s,
it can't be cassettes, it can't be mono etc. etc. etc..

**And I have never said anything of the kind. Except AM (though I did
build a superb, all valve, 4 stage TRF, with a triode infinite
impedance detector, when I was 16.).


I'll say it again: The trouble with you *extreme* CD/SS types is you
really got nowhere to go, have you?

**More projection. Do your homework, before shooting your mouth off.
Here's where you have to prove that I have ever defended 16/44 digital as
being the "ultimate" signal source.


I don't have to prove diddly dick.....

**When you accuse me of something, you need to provide some evidence.



For the record:


Records are not digital....


* I use MP3 in my car. It is entirely adequate, in that environment.
* I stopped using cassettes a couple of years ago. (I used to own a
Nakamichi 100ZXL)
* I listen to AM radio, every Saturday morning. It's a local show called
The Weekend Woodies. http://www.abc.net.au/sydney/photogalleries/woodies/
* I have always felt that 16/44 digital is inadequate to compete with the
VERY BEST (sorry to shout) vinyl available.


First thing you've said that made any sense....


* I have always detested 78s.
* I like 15ips reel to reel.





**Means nothing to me. There are some crappy SS amps on the market.


Really?

**Yes, really.

That's news to me - can you name one current, freely available (in
the UK, of course) make and model??

**One of the most ordinary, I encounter reasonably frequently is the
Audiolab 8000A. It can deliver gobs of current, but sounds terrible. As
for current models, just pick up any sub-1,000 Squid surround sound
receiver. They all sound horrible. Any brand.


Ooh, that's going to ruffle the feathers of someone here.....

**I don't give a ****. It is a horrible sounding amplifier (yes, I've
compared it blind).


I've never heard one - all I've ever heard is that they are supposed to be
good???

**The Audiolab 8000A does SOME really good things:

* It is quite powerful and powerful sounding, in a compact package.
* It copes with difficult loads quite well.
* It delivers a good set of specifications.





Kills me the way you
'anti****s' try to fit this group up with your own wacky little
prejudices and then try to wipe it off on those of us who have
declared time and time again we don't give a rat's arse what you or
anyone else prefers or uses....

Still, if it makes you happy.....???

**Nothing makes me happy. I'm a grump.


Not as grumpy as me - I've got the sodding 'flu and haven't had a wink
of sleep all night......

**There are two Aussie inventions you should (have) tried. It is too late
now, as you need to use them at the first signs.
Tamiflu and Relenza. I find them to be remarkably effective (and
expensive).


We have Lemsip in the UK.....

(Says it all really.... :-)

**We have Lemsip here too. It's useless. Tamiflu and Relenza are
prescription drugs. They're useful. I've found Relenza shortens the duration
of a cold by about 2 days and reduces it's intensity somewhat. At AUS$60.00,
it ain't cheap, but those of us who are self-employed, it is well worth it.
No side effects.





(Might get mi second Chinky valve amp today tho' - that'll cheer me up!
:-)

**You deserve it. If you must, you really should try to lay your hands on
a second hand ARC VT100. Superb amp.


Sounds a little out of my price range.....

**If you want quality..... A Classic 60 and 120 are both nice products too.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


Additionally, if the input is sublimely perfect, any amp which
distorts, will ruin the goodness.


Sublimely perfect input??? Got any?

**Several.


You do?

**Yes.

What are they?

**You're joking, right? The list is too long to mention here.


Oh, sure...

OK, just two or three then - to give us an idea. Only we get to hear
all about this 'crappy amps' and 'perfect inputs' but we *never* get
any examples. The reason is too obvious to be worth a mention......

**I fail to see the point, but I'll grab a couple from my shelf, above
my bench, which I use for test purposes.
* Mary Black - Mission Demonstration disk
* Brahms - Cello Concertos (RCA)
* Chet Atkins - The Essential Chet Atkins
* Neil Diamond - You Don't Bring Me Flowers
* Christine Anu - Christine Anu

Happy now? What purpose did that serve.


Ah.

I thought you were talking about inputs as in *devices*......

(You know - what you get when you flick the 'Input Selector'....???)









Got an amp which *doesn't* distort?? Not at all???

**Several. None of which exhibit any AUDIBLE distortions. More to
the point: Do YOU have any amplifiers which exhibit no audible
distortions, when used with real-life loudspeakers?


None of my amps disort audibly that I or anyone else here can detect.

**Really? Can you provide your measurements to validate that fact?


Wake up dummy - read the words 'I' and 'can detect' again, also try to
get the notion that just a few of us actually *listen* to the music and
don't just watch it on a scope.....

**Now I understand. You KNOW that your amplifiers do not audibly
distort, but you have no way yo prove it. That makes sense.


Certainly it does - if music/voices on my kit didn't sound exactly like I
expect it/them to, I'd get rid.

**So, you have no way to verify what you think it should sound like? How
do you know that your source is accurate?


I don't - nor do I care.

I think you're confusing me with others here who are always whining about
'fidelity' and bull****ting about 'live events'. I don't worry about what I
can't check - provided the sound is as I *expect* it, then it'll do me.
Pause for a moment - this group is for hobbyists like me who are end users -
most of us aren't wannabee losers who are trying to kid themselves 'we're in
the trade'....

Know what I mean?


'



I have news for you: If your amps do not meet or exceed the parameters I
have outlined, they do, in fact, audibly distort.


Not that I can detect - why do you have a problem grasping this?

**You can't detect their distortions, because you've never measured them.


Why should I measure what doesn't bother me? - How anal do you have to be?
See above about 'end users'.

Isn't there a rec.audio.pro where all you 'trade whingers' could go instead
of cluttering up this general interest group??








snip bollockology

restore facts and figures, which you seem to be extremely uncomfortable
in discussing

Frequency response: 20Hz - 20kHz (at, say, 1/3rd full power) +/- 0.1dB,
when operating into a real-world loudspeaker.
Phase error: 20Hz - 20kHz - +/- 5 degrees, when operating into a
real-world
loudspeaker.
Output impedance: Lower than 0.1 Ohm, from 20Hz - 20kHz (BTW: This is
where
many run-of-the-mill SS amps fail)
THD: Less than 0.1% from 20Hz - 20kHz, at (say) 1/3rd maximum output.
IMD: Less than 0.1%.


Interesting/useful to a manufacturer or designer, of little importance to
the end user.

**Nope. Absolutely critical to the end user. There is no point building a
system around a faulty component.

???

Oh dear, don't tell me you're coming down with this 'flu.....???



Mention 'distortion' and 'flat response' to one or two people
I know in the racket and they'll laugh their arses off!

**Sure. There's stupid people in the racket. I'm in the racket

:-)


Lovely! ;-)



(and have been for 35 years) and consider those parameters to be very
important. In fact, unless a product meets those basic criteria, there's
little point considering it at all, since it will affect the sound of any
decent system negatively.






(What,
do you think we sit here listening to 'audible distortion'...??? :-)

**Yes.


Well, I reckon Swim's a better judge than yew, me auld china (played
clart in the presence of Queenie at the RCM and a colleague of Tony
Michaelson for 3 years or so) so it'll be alright if I go along with
her opinion and discard yours, will it?

**I have no idea who "Swim" is. So, no.


Swim = SWMBO

I put a clart piece on she says it's OK. I put it on a valve amp she says
it's 'very real'. I put it on the triode amp she says it's the 'most real
yet' - who am I to argue???

**I'm assuming that since her sensibilities coincide with yours, you
won't.








There's much tub-thumping about 'high fidelity' and 'straight wires
with gain' - like one type of amp absolutely fits these criteria
and another type don't.

**Few amplifiers actually fit that description, WHEN DRIVING REAL
LOUDSPEAKERS.


No need to shout, me auld shagger...

**There is, sometimes.


No, really, there isn't....

**Sure there is. You still seem to be hung up on:

Valves = Good
Transistors = Bad


Hmmm...


This is faulty logic.


You're not kidding....


There are some very fine valve amplifiers. There are some really bad
valve amplifiers. There are some very fine SS amplifiers and some really
bad SS amplifiers. Just because an amplifier uses a particular active
devices, does not automatically convey a measure of goodness (or badness)
on that product. However, at a given price level (assuming good design),
a SS amplifier will always outperform a valve amp.


I'm not sure what this is all leading up to. First off, I love all these
'qualified' statements we keep seeing like 'crappy valve amps' and 'at a
given price level', 'good design' etc. etc.

Next, I'm not nearly as convinced as you seem to be that we're tit-deep
in 'bad' amplifiers. Call it a sheltered upbringing if you like, but I'm
not sure I've ever heard a *bad* amplifier....???

**I have. Lots of them. Including the afore-mentioned Audiolab 8000A.


(Are bad amps like fleas? - The more you seek, the more you find and the
more you find, the happier you be??)

**In my business I get to see *a lot* of amplifiers. I usually listen to
the ones which demonstrate overtly interesting results on the test
equipment.


Stop for a moment and consider how fatuous those remarks are - you repair
busted amps for a living, I don't. I also don't buy *bad* amps (wouldn't
know how to do that) so, believe it or not, I don't get to see *bad*
amps.....

(It's like pulling teeth.......!!)


The most recent one being a Linn Intek. Quite a good amp, BTW.


No good to me matey - I'm up one more Chinese cheapy amp since we last
'spoke' :-)



Then you seem to be very comfortable presuming that I would choose *any*
valve amp over *any* ss amp, come what may?? Wrong, asitappens, but I've
yet to hear an ss amp I could live with other than during the single
week's hot weather we get in the UK...

**[GAG] Hot weather? You have no idea what hot weather really is. Trust me
on this. As it happens, the amp I use is specifically designed to operate
at an internal temperature of 60oC, regardless of the outside temperature
(provided the outside temperature does not exceed 60oC, of course).


Is that 60°C you mean...??

;-)


As for your selection of an SS amp, I suggest you use similar criteria to
that which would affect your choice of valve amps. Here's a few criteria
you could consider:
* Low Global NFB.
* No current limiters (or current limiters which operate in a benign
fashion).
* A good, big power supply, relative to power output. IOW: A nice, heavy,
low power output amp.
* Moderately high Class A operation.
* Collectors coupled to loads.

The afore-mentioned Linn Intek comes close to these parameters.


OK, OK

First off, I'm not in the market for another SS amp. Secondly, you provide
here a good opportunity to point out that this group's leading ****, who is
always banging on about how good valve amps cost a lot more than their ss
counterparts, has totally got his frilly little panties in a 180° twist on
this. You can get good 'valve attributes' (soundstage, clarity etc.) very
cheaply atm - I've just got another £250 valve amp that will, IME, **** all
over a £5/600 ss amp (no names, here...) in these respects, but to get
anything like the same attributes in an ss amp (as per your list above) you
are talking about an expensive amp over here, if bought off the shelf.
(Sugden A21 for example?)

IOW, the *opposite* of the **** continually being spouted in another
quarter....




(First thing to go with ss is the 'soundstage', you see.....)

**Not necessarily. Soundstage is affected by several things. All of which
can be addressed quite easily.


But not cheaply, methinks - if it ain't broke, why devise another way of
replicating it, FFS??









Quite a few manage it with dummy loads and sine waves, however.

(Not to mention whatever input or amp is used, the speakers and the
room will have the final say, in any case....)

**Strawman, duly noted.


Geekboy 'Usenet' terminology duly noted.....

**Strawman, duly noted.


Geekboy 'Usenet' terminology duly noted.....

**Your further strawman is duly noted.


Your further Geekboy 'Usenet' terminology duly noted.....





(You been talking to the other opinionated, non-UK loudmouth that
hangs around in here by any chance?)

**That depends.


Thought as much....


What does that tell you? They got no place in this ng for a start?

**Not at all. I have stated, ad nauseum, that a REALLY GOOD valve
amplifier


You're shouting again - do try to hold it together, there's a good
chap.

**Clearly I need to shout. You don't seem to pay attention.


Won't get (or keep) my attention by shouting muchacho, saying something
interesting is all it takes - try it.....

**I try to. You just ignore the truth. Just try to follow my logic, once
in awhile.


You have no logic, you have only prejudice and dogma....

**Nope. I have logic and experience on my side.


Experience (of fixing amps) - no arguemnet. Logic? Care to 'refresh my
memory' on this???

(The only logic I can see is that you are trying to persuade me that it is
possible to create an ss amp that will have the attributes that come
virtually FOC with an modest valve amp....???)








Who's discussing cheap, crappy valve amps?

**The original poster.


Oh ah? And where do you see that, then? Nothing in there that I could
see - he mentions a valve amp (preferably DIY) and that he's got a
budget system - make the classic mistake of confusing the two different
statements, did we??? ;-)

**Nope. A DIY'er is, by definition, after a bargain (or an education).
Further, it is safe to assume that his choice of speakers suggests that
he is on a tight budget. If I am wrong, I will be happy to retract my
assumption.


Absolute ******** - a very unsafe presumption at best...






- That's your usual (what's that
term - 'strawman'?) little injection into the proceedings isn't it??

**Nope.


Not nope - yep...

**I could have said: "Non-sequitur".


I could have said "Non est ad astra mollis e terris via
".....

**You could, but I wouldn't have a clue about what you are saying.

OK, I'm a) surprised you didn't Google it and come up with the answer and b)
even more surprised that the group's leading wattock didn't do so? (Or did
he?? ;-)

Seneca: The trip from the earth to the stars is not an easy one.









Or that
can subscribe here if they perform some sort of 'confession' or
make an obeisance to their (wiser) betters?

**Education never hurt anyone.


Agreed - try some.

**What would you suggest? Vaccuum tube theory? Nope. I can get by.


Start with 'Ubu Roi' by Alfred Jarry (1896) - it's an allegory of
Digital Theory predating the concept by nearly a hundred years. You
should find it interesting.....

**Why? I am not discussing digital. I am discussing signals in the
analogue domain.


That too...








Ever see a valvie give an ss type a hard
time because he doesn't like/use valves?

**Every single day.


Must be hell....

**It is distressing being surrounded by fools.


There there, never mind - if you don't look straight at them, they'll
all go away soon....


Again with the 'cheap, crappy valve amps' - you really don't have an
argument do you? Why not just say *broken* amps and be done with
it???

**Because many people imagine that because it has tubes, it must be
good.

???


It is very important to show that this is not necessarily the case.


It is?? To whom??

**To the poor fools who have been deluded by the marketers of shoddy
valve amps, masquerading as decent products.


You must have 'em on every street corner.....

**Pretty much.


(Paid the full ML 'Red Rose' price for a chinky amp, did they?)

**Worse. Some have actually paid real Dollars for Audio Note amps.


I got no problem with Audio Note stuff - make some pretty good trannies,
from what I gather....








A valve amp may be good, or it may be bad.


Stressy, isn't it...??? :-)

**Not at all. A quick set of measurements will soon sort out the good
and the bad.



Stoppit, please - most of us just chuck the ****ing music on and
listen to it. We ain't 'measuring' it or giving it marks out of ten!
We play it the best way we like to hear it - is that really too hard
to understand??

**Not at all.


Note to Jim Lesurf - if I don't see you pulling this clown up for not
snipping soon, I'll start to feel a bit 'singled out' - know wot I
mean?


He ain't snipping, I ain't snipping - we've done all this before.....






The trouble with you *extreme* CD/SS types is you really got nowhere
to go, have you?

**Now you're engaing in projection. I suggest you do some homework,
before attempting to tar me with a brush you tar others with.

It can't be vinyl, it can't be valves, it can't be MP3s, it can't
be 24/92 or 24/192, it can't be AM, it can't be DAB, it can't be 78s,
it can't be cassettes, it can't be mono etc. etc. etc..

**And I have never said anything of the kind. Except AM (though I did
build a superb, all valve, 4 stage TRF, with a triode infinite
impedance detector, when I was 16.).


I'll say it again: The trouble with you *extreme* CD/SS types is you
really got nowhere to go, have you?

**More projection. Do your homework, before shooting your mouth off.
Here's where you have to prove that I have ever defended 16/44 digital
as being the "ultimate" signal source.


I don't have to prove diddly dick.....

**When you accuse me of something, you need to provide some evidence.


Not sure that I have accused you of anything, but I don't have to provide
evidence for an accusation - you would have to prove I'm wrong, in my little
world! ;-)

For example, I say you are a pooftah....

OK? Over to you, prove you are (presumably?) not.... ;-)




For the record:


Records are not digital....


* I use MP3 in my car. It is entirely adequate, in that environment.
* I stopped using cassettes a couple of years ago. (I used to own a
Nakamichi 100ZXL)
* I listen to AM radio, every Saturday morning. It's a local show called
The Weekend Woodies.
http://www.abc.net.au/sydney/photogalleries/woodies/
* I have always felt that 16/44 digital is inadequate to compete with
the VERY BEST (sorry to shout) vinyl available.


First thing you've said that made any sense....


* I have always detested 78s.
* I like 15ips reel to reel.





**Means nothing to me. There are some crappy SS amps on the market.


Really?

**Yes, really.

That's news to me - can you name one current, freely available (in
the UK, of course) make and model??

**One of the most ordinary, I encounter reasonably frequently is the
Audiolab 8000A. It can deliver gobs of current, but sounds terrible.
As for current models, just pick up any sub-1,000 Squid surround sound
receiver. They all sound horrible. Any brand.


Ooh, that's going to ruffle the feathers of someone here.....

**I don't give a ****. It is a horrible sounding amplifier (yes, I've
compared it blind).


I've never heard one - all I've ever heard is that they are supposed to
be good???

**The Audiolab 8000A does SOME really good things:

* It is quite powerful and powerful sounding, in a compact package.
* It copes with difficult loads quite well.
* It delivers a good set of specifications.


Yet it "It is a horrible sounding amplifier" - Jeez, I needn't type a damn
thing, do I? - You are making all my points better than I can!!







Kills me the way you
'anti****s' try to fit this group up with your own wacky little
prejudices and then try to wipe it off on those of us who have
declared time and time again we don't give a rat's arse what you or
anyone else prefers or uses....

Still, if it makes you happy.....???

**Nothing makes me happy. I'm a grump.


Not as grumpy as me - I've got the sodding 'flu and haven't had a wink
of sleep all night......

**There are two Aussie inventions you should (have) tried. It is too
late now, as you need to use them at the first signs.
Tamiflu and Relenza. I find them to be remarkably effective (and
expensive).


We have Lemsip in the UK.....

(Says it all really.... :-)

**We have Lemsip here too. It's useless.

No it isn't. I'm going to have another one in a mo....


Tamiflu and Relenza are prescription drugs.


I don't have a doctor - I don't use 'prescription drugs'.....


They're useful. I've found Relenza shortens the duration
of a cold by about 2 days and reduces it's intensity somewhat. At
AUS$60.00, it ain't cheap, but those of us who are self-employed, it is
well worth it. No side effects.





(Might get mi second Chinky valve amp today tho' - that'll cheer me up!
:-)

**You deserve it.


Well, thank you - it turned up this afternoon.


If you must, you really should try to lay your hands on
a second hand ARC VT100. Superb amp.


Sounds a little out of my price range.....

**If you want quality..... A Classic 60 and 120 are both nice products
too.


Still out of my reach, I suspect....

You see, this is the whole point that gets missed by the idiots here who
bleat continuously about what they simply don't know - you really *can* get
a nice-sounding valve amp for well under a grand!! (Half that, if a kit or
half that again if Chinese!!)

Valves are *extremely* mature technology - all you need to do, to get a a
decent 'bang/buck' ratio is scrape away the bull**** 'audiophilia' and
xenophobic prejudice.....

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

[snip]

Note to Jim Lesurf - if I don't see you pulling this clown up for not
snipping soon, I'll start to feel a bit 'singled out' - know wot I mean?

[snip]

I understand. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Keith G wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...


**One of the most ordinary, I encounter reasonably frequently is the
Audiolab 8000A. It can deliver gobs of current, but sounds terrible. As
for current models, just pick up any sub-1,000 Squid surround sound
receiver. They all sound horrible. Any brand.



Trevor,

Which version of the 8000A would that have been? There were numerous
revisions over the years (Mk I - III) from the early 80s till the mid
90s. The first version had a grey case with DIN connectors instead of
phono connectors. The MkIII versions (post '92?) are meant to be very
good, as they probably ironed out all the defeciencies by then. And
apparently the 8000A has a non-transparent pre-amp section ...

Have you tried the 8000S?


Ooh, that's going to ruffle the feathers of someone here.....


well, quite a few subscribers to UKRA are quite happy with their
Audiolab kit ...