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Quad Electrostatics



 
 
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old December 31st 04, 08:30 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Rob
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Posts: 127
Default Quad Electrostatics

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , tony sayer

wrote:



Perhaps I should be lucky then, the missus adores the Quads and quite
surprisingly.. the sound of they)



I am similarly fortunate as my wife prefers the appearance of ESL's to
conventional speakers - as well as liking the music. :-)

Slainte,

Jim


Marvellous! I've never managed to achieve that marriage :-)

*If* I was to consider ESLs could any of you sum up, in a couple of
lines, the sort of amplification and room sizes necessary to help them
(say 63s) work properly?

I've only ever heard Quad electrostatics twice - once in a hifi 'shop'
(the old Laskey's in Birmingham, a huge room), and once at someone's
home. In the shop the music sounded superb, as good as I've heard, but
at this bloke's house I found it very 'thin' - inoffensive but lacking
detail and weight at frequency extremes. The room was probably 25'x15',
and we were about 15' from the speakers. I didn't recognise any of the
kit, but he was very rich - I'd guess it was 'decent'.

TIA

Rob
  #12 (permalink)  
Old December 31st 04, 09:38 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Anthony Edwards
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Posts: 111
Default Quad Electrostatics

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 09:30:06 +0000, Rob
wrote:

I've only ever heard Quad electrostatics twice - once in a hifi 'shop'
(the old Laskey's in Birmingham, a huge room), and once at someone's
home. In the shop the music sounded superb, as good as I've heard, but
at this bloke's house I found it very 'thin' - inoffensive but lacking
detail and weight at frequency extremes. The room was probably 25'x15',
and we were about 15' from the speakers. I didn't recognise any of the
kit, but he was very rich - I'd guess it was 'decent'.


I have never owned ESLs myself (although I have owned a variety of
very good Quad electronics), however I have heard them demonstrated
a number of times in some rather small hi-fi dealers' demonstration
rooms. Despite the conventional wisdom being that Quad electrostatics
only sound good in big rooms, those demonstrations have always been
highly impressive.

I do like the electrostatic "sound" though (my existing loudspeakers,
active ATCs, share some characteristics of the Quads in terms of
accuracy, but are perhaps more dynamic and certainly play louder),
which may be colouring my opinion.

--
Anthony Edwards

  #13 (permalink)  
Old December 31st 04, 10:29 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
tony sayer
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Posts: 2,042
Default Quad Electrostatics

In article , Rob removethisgramsci@btin
ternet.com writes
Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , tony sayer

wrote:



Perhaps I should be lucky then, the missus adores the Quads and quite
surprisingly.. the sound of they)



I am similarly fortunate as my wife prefers the appearance of ESL's to
conventional speakers - as well as liking the music. :-)

Slainte,

Jim


Marvellous! I've never managed to achieve that marriage :-)

*If* I was to consider ESLs could any of you sum up, in a couple of
lines, the sort of amplification and room sizes necessary to help them
(say 63s) work properly?

I've only ever heard Quad electrostatics twice - once in a hifi 'shop'
(the old Laskey's in Birmingham, a huge room), and once at someone's
home. In the shop the music sounded superb, as good as I've heard, but
at this bloke's house I found it very 'thin' - inoffensive but lacking
detail and weight at frequency extremes. The room was probably 25'x15',
and we were about 15' from the speakers. I didn't recognise any of the
kit, but he was very rich - I'd guess it was 'decent'.

TIA

Rob


I use an Audiolab 8000P, the separate power amp driven by a Camtech pre-
amp, don't think they made many of they, and some twin flex cable, but
this quite a big twin flex

The whole setup sounds very "boring" and "lifeless" and "neutral"
however

Room is about 14 x 24 feet....
--
Tony Sayer

  #14 (permalink)  
Old December 31st 04, 11:32 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Chris Morriss
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Posts: 530
Default Quad Electrostatics

In message , tony sayer
writes

I use an Audiolab 8000P, the separate power amp driven by a Camtech pre-
amp, don't think they made many of they, and some twin flex cable, but
this quite a big twin flex

The whole setup sounds very "boring" and "lifeless" and "neutral"
however

Room is about 14 x 24 feet....


I think you'll find that what you may call boring/lifeless/neutral, some
of us are likely to call 'accurate'!


--
Chris Morriss
  #15 (permalink)  
Old December 31st 04, 02:09 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Fleetie
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Posts: 449
Default ANTIQUES

A) ESL-57s look OLD, DATED, UGLY, BROWN, and just YUCKY.

B) It seems "cool" to revere them. They're nearly 50 years old now.
They might (or might not; I've only heard them once IIRC, and that
was years ago at a Penta show, I think) sound ok in the mid or whatever,
but I am sure they're not as good as the uninitiated observer might be
led to think, given the amount of chin-stroking sage reverence that
they still seem to evoke.

C) I would personally never give them house space. I can see that
they might have value as antiques that in some cases still function,
but let's be honest, speaker technology has moved a LONG way in the
50 years since they were designed.

D) "Emperor's OLD clothes".


There! I've said it! Can I be burnt as a heretic now?

Oh and I bet my Dynaudios'd kick ESL-57s' sorry asses into the grave where
they definitely belong. And go a fair bit louder.

Next instalment: The LS3/5a.


Martin
--
M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967 110890
Manchester, U.K. http://www.fleetie.demon.co.uk


  #16 (permalink)  
Old December 31st 04, 02:20 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Jim Lesurf
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Posts: 3,051
Default Quad Electrostatics

In article , Rob
wrote:


*If* I was to consider ESLs could any of you sum up, in a couple of
lines, the sort of amplification and room sizes necessary to help them
(say 63s) work properly?


Except for the ealiest issue boards the 63 is a much easier load than the
57. Hence ultra-high currents are not normally required. The speakers also
have protection circuits that may cut in somewhere above about 50V. Hence
in the most basic terms the nominal requirement is for an amp that can
manage about 100-150Wpc into 8 Ohm loads and would be happy with 4 Ohm
loads.

In theory, the amp might have to endure the corwbar protection in the
speakers being triggered. This shoves a 'short' across the terminals and
would mean the amp should have either good fusing or a current limiter.
However despite this I've used a 200Wpc monster with no current limiters
with a pair of 63's for 20 years and never had a problem.

The conventional wisdom is that you need a reasonably large room. However
both the rooms I use I would say are 'small'. Yet I get results which sound
good to me. I think that a more relaistic requirement here is that the
speakers need to be as far from the back walls as possible. Certainly at
least 1 metre away, and more is better. The listening position also being
well away from the back walls.

In a small room this also tends to imply you have to angle the speakers to
get the axis up near your ears. I found that stands were also a good idea.
However all these things are really a matter of experiment as the optimum
will probably vary a lot from one room to another.

I've only ever heard Quad electrostatics twice - once in a hifi 'shop'
(the old Laskey's in Birmingham, a huge room), and once at someone's
home. In the shop the music sounded superb, as good as I've heard, but
at this bloke's house I found it very 'thin' - inoffensive but lacking
detail and weight at frequency extremes. The room was probably 25'x15',
and we were about 15' from the speakers. I didn't recognise any of the
kit, but he was very rich - I'd guess it was 'decent'.


The 63's can easily sound 'light' on bass. To some extent this can be
adjusted by careful positioning, etc. However I also found that there were
two ways to counter this.

1) To use a Quad 34 with a modified bass lift control. Or some equivalent
of this. This then helped get a flatter response down to a lower frequency.
Without this the response tends to fall away somewhere around 60Hz. With
it, you can extend down towards about 35-40Hz

or

2) Simply buy a subwoofer and use this to fill in below 50Hz or so. This
can fill in nicely down to 20Hz if so desired.

(1) tends to give a nice result, but restricts the power level you can use
a bit, depending on the music and room size. Snag is the need to modify the
34, or make up a suitable 'shelf' filter to go between preamp and power
amp.

(2) goes deeper and gives more power at LF, but is more tricky in terms of
getting the 'match' right. Now that I use 988's + sub I find that this
gives good results on music and the required 'thuds and bangs' for films.

Any apparent lack at HF can be a result of either not being on-axis, or
missing the colourations of conventional tweeters. Also of a difference in
the levels of room excitations as conventional speakers do this differently
to the ESLs. FWIW although the sound can change when you listen to the
ESLs, I'd say that once you have listened to them for a while you tend to
end up feeling that the ESL is 'right' and the conventional speakers are
'wrong' - although this is obvious subject to my bias. ;- Also depends
on how the music was balanced when recorded.

Slainte,

Jim#

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html
  #17 (permalink)  
Old December 31st 04, 02:30 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Jim Lesurf
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,051
Default Quad Electrostatics

In article , Anthony Edwards
wrote:


I have never owned ESLs myself (although I have owned a variety of very
good Quad electronics), however I have heard them demonstrated a number
of times in some rather small hi-fi dealers' demonstration rooms.
Despite the conventional wisdom being that Quad electrostatics only
sound good in big rooms, those demonstrations have always been highly
impressive.


I'd agree with the above. The 'right' size of room will help, I'm sure.
However in my experience you can get lovely results in small rooms provided
you take care, and can place the speakers away from the back walls.

I was surprised by my wife's reactions to the ESLs. I feared at first that
she would find them too large. But she commented that they looked *better*
than narrower speakers as they simply looked 'tidy' as they did not become
columns out in front of a wall. In effect, they give a simpler appearance
as they cover what is behind them. I was happy not to argue with this
opinion... :-)

Indeed, she suggested we use the 63's (now replaced with 988's) as
replacements for a pair of LS3/5A's which she did not like very much either
in terms of sound or appearance on stands.

My wife has the 'classic' attitude of having no interest in hifi as such.
But she happily enjoys the noise it makes and agrees that the results are
well worth the effort - of leaving *me* to fiddle about with all the boxes
and leads... :-)

Her only complaint is that she has to use two remote controls - in the
correct order - and one mains switch, just to turn on the TV. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html
  #18 (permalink)  
Old December 31st 04, 03:02 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Nick Gorham
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 851
Default ANTIQUES

Fleetie wrote:
A) ESL-57s look OLD, DATED, UGLY, BROWN, and just YUCKY.


OSAF.


B) It seems "cool" to revere them. They're nearly 50 years old now.
They might (or might not; I've only heard them once IIRC, and that
was years ago at a Penta show, I think) sound ok in the mid or whatever,
but I am sure they're not as good as the uninitiated observer might be
led to think, given the amount of chin-stroking sage reverence that
they still seem to evoke.


Again OSAF, you say you have only heard them once, but feel confidant
that you know what they sound like.


C) I would personally never give them house space. I can see that
they might have value as antiques that in some cases still function,
but let's be honest, speaker technology has moved a LONG way in the
50 years since they were designed.


Mainly the 50 advance has been to overcome many of the problems
associated with putting moving coil speakers into a box. The ELS has
neither of these problems.

D) "Emperor's OLD clothes".


Whatever that means.


There! I've said it! Can I be burnt as a heretic now?


Well, you could point exactly the same finger at the valve amp you
have/had. the valves date from just about the same time (or a bit
earlier maybe)

Oh and I bet my Dynaudios'd kick ESL-57s' sorry asses into the grave where
they definitely belong. And go a fair bit louder.


Not sure going louder is in itself a issue. I would guess your
Dyneaudios go louder, higher and lower, but I will bet you the midrange
sucks on the dyneaudios compaired to the ELS's

--
Nick

"Life has surface noise" - John Peel 1939-2004
  #19 (permalink)  
Old December 31st 04, 03:19 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
mick
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 159
Default ANTIQUES

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:09:21 +0000, Fleetie wrote:

A) ESL-57s look OLD, DATED, UGLY, BROWN, and just YUCKY.


So what? Do you listen with your eyes? ;-)


C) I would personally never give them house space.


I would... I'm jealous as hell! I wish I had the cash and the space to
house some. :-(

I can see that they
might have value as antiques that in some cases still function, but let's
be honest, speaker technology has moved a LONG way in the 50 years since
they were designed.


Electrostatic speakers are something else though. They simply don't sound
like any other kind. There arn't even many models available to chose from!

D) "Emperor's OLD clothes".


There! I've said it! Can I be burnt as a heretic now?


Yep. Ok lads, bring on the tinder! ;-)


--
Mick
(no M$ software on here... :-) )
Web: http://www.nascom.info
Web: http://projectedsound.tk


  #20 (permalink)  
Old December 31st 04, 03:30 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Stewart Pinkerton
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Posts: 3,367
Default ANTIQUES

On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:09:21 GMT, "Fleetie"
wrote:

A) ESL-57s look OLD, DATED, UGLY, BROWN, and just YUCKY.


So do I, but no one complains! :-)

B) It seems "cool" to revere them. They're nearly 50 years old now.
They might (or might not; I've only heard them once IIRC, and that
was years ago at a Penta show, I think) sound ok in the mid or whatever,
but I am sure they're not as good as the uninitiated observer might be
led to think, given the amount of chin-stroking sage reverence that
they still seem to evoke.


The treble is crap, and there isn't any bass. It's all midrange, and
even that is nothing special when compared with other 'stats.

C) I would personally never give them house space. I can see that
they might have value as antiques that in some cases still function,
but let's be honest, speaker technology has moved a LONG way in the
50 years since they were designed.


Quite so - even within Quad.............

D) "Emperor's OLD clothes".

There! I've said it! Can I be burnt as a heretic now?

Oh and I bet my Dynaudios'd kick ESL-57s' sorry asses into the grave where
they definitely belong. And go a fair bit louder.


Indeed.

Next instalment: The LS3/5a.


That **** Ken Kessler's got a lot to answer for there. Note that he
actually uses Apogee Divas, which are about as far from the LS3/5a as
you can get! Typical hypocritical loudmouthed NYJ.........
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
 




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