On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 14:19:53 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Julian Fowler" wrote
snip

Can't comment ... whilst not being a vinylphile (I do listen to vinyl,
albeit only where the music concerned is not readily available in
digital form, or I've not yet got round to purchasing it on CD) I'm
not a vinylphobe either. The "irritation" (which, to be honest, is
only minor as far as I'm concerned) is when over-zealous vinylphiles
jump from statements of preference to statements of technical
superiority.


Again, I can only state I'm not aware of many (if any) such statements.

Sometimes I wonder whether we're reading different newsgroups :-)

I noticed that you snipped my comment about vinyl enthusiasts' denial
of the degradation involved in the mastering-for-vinyl process -- are
these also statements that you're unaware of?

I
think what it is the 'vinylphobes/digiphiles' take enthusiastic remarks
about 'lifelike' 'engaging' and 'presence' (or whatever) and translate them
into 'accuracy' 'dynamic range' etc.

Maybe you could explain to the unlightened how a recording can be
"lifelike" without being accurate.

Fine, except that have you really ever seen/heard a Moggie owner

yes (usually in form claims that Moggies are "environmentally
friendly")


Which, if caring ownership of a well-tuned Moggie for, say, 30 years, means
that a square mile (or two) of rainforest hasn't been chopped down to
provide the 15 or so '2 year replacements' in that time, is a perfectly
reasonable claim, IME.

Somehow, I'm not surprised that you'd say that ;-) How about
considerations like the % of recycleable parts in the Moggie, its
exhaust emissions, the long-term environmental damage caused by the
factory it was built in, ... Its no coincidence that countries that
have well-founded environmental policies give people substantial
subsidies to dispose of Moggies and their equivalents ...

snip

... um, since when did white bread have anything to do with accuracy
of audio reproduction?


At about the same time as the mention of the Morris Minor.......

The comparison between dominant technologies of the mid-20th century
(Morris Minor, vinyl records) and those of the early 21st century
(BMW, CD) seems valid to me.


Maybe the key difference *is* that vinylphiles
have a preference for a certain sound (and the common claims in favour
of valve amplifiers in conjunction with vinyl suggest that "certain
sound" to be an inaccurate, coloured one), whereas those with a
preference for CD are seeking the best possible reproduction of music
as intended by the artists, engineers, and producers responsible for
it. If your interest is with accuracy then specifications are
important - if your interest is in a sound you like (without much
attention to the relationship between what you are hearing and what
was recorded) then I agree that specs and measurements are irrelevant
to you.


Your mention of valves raises a very good point. It is my contention that
'valves & vinyl' go together like cheese and pickle and combine to create an
utterly sublime sound. ('Accurate', 'distorted', 'coloured' or not - I
really couldn't give a sh*t, I simply never tire of it!) I often wonder if
vinyl would have quite so many detractors here if they had had the chance to
hear the 'full monty'.....

I have ... and I'll admit that a high-end vinyl/valve system can sound
very good. On the other hand, any competent CD based system sounds at
least as good, if not better (to me).

Julian


--
Julian Fowler
julian (at) bellevue-barn (dot) org (dot) uk

In article ,
Julian Fowler wrote:
I noticed that you snipped my comment about vinyl enthusiasts' denial
of the degradation involved in the mastering-for-vinyl process -- are
these also statements that you're unaware of?

They've been done to death on here, but the vinyl nerds don't listen.
They have a hearing problem.

--
*Remember, no-one is listening until you fart.*

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

Julian Fowler wrote in
:

snip


Maybe you could explain to the unlightened how a recording can be
"lifelike" without being accurate.


I am one of the 'lucky' ones that likes CD/SS and vinyl/valves ;-).

To my ears, vinyl gives a 'fuller' and 'deeper' soundstage. Each instrument
is 'rounder', more '3d' sounding. With this sound it is easy to talk about
'warmth', 'life' and 'more musical'. I find it 'better' than CD in the same
way that a country cottage with its low beams and sloping floors can be
more desirable than a perfectly built new house, even though the cottage is
not built to the same standard.

My CD system cost me £1500 and is currently the top mid range system in
many of the comix. I very much like its accuracy, timing and soundstage. To
my ears the sound is 'flatter' with less 'life' in it than vinyl.

How about some more comparisons?

Supermarket pie V home made steak pie
Perfect packet Smash V Lumpy mash from pie and mash shop
Modern quiet automatic car V noisy old sports car
Modern gas central heating V open, coal fireplace

In most of these the modern equivelent lacks soul although technicaly
superior!

So as someone who likes both, gets a lot of pleasure from both, I can say
that vinyl is more lifelike than CD although not technicaly the same.

MrBitsy.

In article . 39,
MrBitsy wrote:
Supermarket pie V home made steak pie
Perfect packet Smash V Lumpy mash from pie and mash shop
Modern quiet automatic car V noisy old sports car
Modern gas central heating V open, coal fireplace

In most of these the modern equivelent lacks soul although technicaly
superior!

That you think a supermarket pie or dried potatoe mix technically superior
to the real thing says a lot about your lack of technical understanding.

So as someone who likes both, gets a lot of pleasure from both, I can
say that vinyl is more lifelike than CD although not technicaly the
same.

If it were more lifelike than CD then it would be able to imitate live
sounds better. This it certainly can't, in any test you care to try where
direct comparison, rather than your poor hearing memory, is involved.

--
*Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 11:06:13 +0100, Dave Plowman
wrote:

In article . 39,
MrBitsy wrote:
Supermarket pie V home made steak pie
Perfect packet Smash V Lumpy mash from pie and mash shop
Modern quiet automatic car V noisy old sports car
Modern gas central heating V open, coal fireplace

In most of these the modern equivelent lacks soul although technicaly
superior!

That you think a supermarket pie or dried potatoe mix technically superior
to the real thing says a lot about your lack of technical understanding.

So as someone who likes both, gets a lot of pleasure from both, I can
say that vinyl is more lifelike than CD although not technicaly the
same.

If it were more lifelike than CD then it would be able to imitate live
sounds better. This it certainly can't, in any test you care to try where
direct comparison, rather than your poor hearing memory, is involved.

Ooops Dave! Potatoe? Are you standing for US Vice President, or what?
.... :-)

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com

Dave Plowman wrote in
:

In article . 39,
MrBitsy wrote:
Supermarket pie V home made steak pie
Perfect packet Smash V Lumpy mash from pie and mash shop
Modern quiet automatic car V noisy old sports car
Modern gas central heating V open, coal fireplace

In most of these the modern equivelent lacks soul although technicaly
superior!

That you think a supermarket pie or dried potatoe mix technically
superior to the real thing says a lot about your lack of technical
understanding.

I was more getting at the preperation of the pie - techy machines,
cleanliness etc! These pies just don't taste the same as mums!


So as someone who likes both, gets a lot of pleasure from both, I can
say that vinyl is more lifelike than CD although not technicaly the
same.

If it were more lifelike than CD then it would be able to imitate live
sounds better. This it certainly can't, in any test you care to try
where direct comparison, rather than your poor hearing memory, is
involved.


What do you not understand about 'I like both formats'? For me, something
gets lost in the transistion to CD that isn't lost with vinyl. In the pie
analogy above, no machine is ever going to beat the taste of my mums
steak pie - why? Technically the process is brilliant and hygene is top
notch but something is missing - quite possibly the human touch is needed
for that home taste.

Same with CD. Something gets lost in the recording and maybe vinyl can
supply that missing something - perhaps, just perhaps, having everything
just 'right' sucks some of that 'home cooking' out of the finished
product.

MrBitsy.