"Kurt Hamster" wrote in message
...
As has been shown in several threads over the last couple of days there
is a need to separate vinyl discussions from the mainstream audio group.
If only to provide a place where vinylophiles can discuss their
preferences with like-minded people, where we can reduce the turbulence
caused by the digital bigots who are unable to comprehend how we can
gain so much satisfaction from a black disk of PVC.

Please count me as in favour of the creation of the new group.
(snip)
Kurt
The Hamsters - Voted the UK's best Blues-Rock band.
http://www.thehamsters.co.uk

* ... Angels can fly since they take themselves lightly.

I would like to add my support for ukrav. I'll certainly vote for it's
creation. I remain perplexed by the hostility of certain ukra subscribers to
the simple assertion that music sounds better on vinyl to many people, and
the tedious and patronising attempts made to 'prove' that vinyl users are
somehow mistaken or delusional. The creation of the new group should allow
constructive discussion of what remains a very creative and enthusiastically
supported section of the audio industry by professionals and hobbyists
alike.

John Wilkinson.

In article ,
John wrote:
The creation of the new group should allow constructive discussion of
what remains a very creative and enthusiastically supported section of
the audio industry by professionals and hobbyists alike.

I take it by 'professionals' you mean those who sell vinyl? Only a very
few cranks who work in pro audio prefer vinyl, and would probably keep
this very quiet among their peers.

--
*Money isn't everything, but it sure keeps the kids in touch.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 09:06:35 +0100, "John"
wrote:


"Kurt Hamster" wrote in message
...
As has been shown in several threads over the last couple of days there
is a need to separate vinyl discussions from the mainstream audio group.
If only to provide a place where vinylophiles can discuss their
preferences with like-minded people, where we can reduce the turbulence
caused by the digital bigots who are unable to comprehend how we can
gain so much satisfaction from a black disk of PVC.

Please count me as in favour of the creation of the new group.
(snip)
Kurt
The Hamsters - Voted the UK's best Blues-Rock band.
http://www.thehamsters.co.uk

* ... Angels can fly since they take themselves lightly.

I would like to add my support for ukrav. I'll certainly vote for it's
creation. I remain perplexed by the hostility of certain ukra subscribers to
the simple assertion that music sounds better on vinyl to many people,

I have no problem with such assertions ... however, I do get irritated
when some of the vinyl enthusiasts mutate this statement to "music
*is* better on vinyl". Anyone can have a subjective preference;
hopefully creation of a new group that is specific to those with with
a preference for vinyl will reduce the no. of posts to uk.rec.audio
trying to claim that CD is not objectively/technically superior to
vinyl as an accurate reproduction mechanism.

and
the tedious and patronising attempts made to 'prove' that vinyl users are
somehow mistaken or delusional.

.... as opposed to the tedious and delusional attempts to 'prove' that
vinyl is somehow technically superior to CD. Its like a Morris Minor
enthusiast trying to argue that his/her preference makes the Moggie
technically superior to a BMW 7-series ;-)

Julian

--
Julian Fowler
julian (at) bellevue-barn (dot) org (dot) uk

"Julian Fowler" wrote


I would like to add my support for ukrav. I'll certainly vote for it's
creation. I remain perplexed by the hostility of certain ukra subscribers
to
the simple assertion that music sounds better on vinyl to many people,

I have no problem with such assertions ... however, I do get irritated
when some of the vinyl enthusiasts mutate this statement to "music
*is* better on vinyl".


Strange, since I prefer music on vinyl, for me, "music *is* better on
vinyl". (I'd be daft to prefer it, if it sounded worse, wouldn't I?) What
troubles me is that vinylphobes can't stand to hear that someone prefers
vinyl without being irritated while most vinylphiles I know are very happy
to hear someone prefers digital and really couldn't care less.

Best of all, I suppose, is that some people can happily 'mix and match' both
without getting bent out shape about it all. (Although, the fact I can't
doesn't bother me too much....)


Anyone can have a subjective preference;
hopefully creation of a new group that is specific to those with with
a preference for vinyl will reduce the no. of posts to uk.rec.audio
trying to claim that CD is not objectively/technically superior to
vinyl as an accurate reproduction mechanism.

and
the tedious and patronising attempts made to 'prove' that vinyl users are
somehow mistaken or delusional.


Yes indeed - removal of this very 'LP vs. digital' deadlock is one of the
reasons for proposing a separate vinyl ng.



... as opposed to the tedious and delusional attempts to 'prove' that
vinyl is somehow technically superior to CD. Its like a Morris Minor
enthusiast trying to argue that his/her preference makes the Moggie
technically superior to a BMW 7-series ;-)


Fine, except that have you really ever seen/heard a Moggie owner (or
vinylphile) make these 'technically superior' remarks? I think you will find
it is actually the longest-running strawman argument in ukra.

Vinylphiles may claim 'sonic superiority' and will certainly express a
personal preference, vinylphobes are uncomfortable with this (doesn't match
their own 'scientific' findings) and substitute the word 'technical' in
their little, er, ****** heads!

Now try this one - home-baked bread is much better than a supermarket sliced
white loaf despite the fact that the supermarket loaf will very likely
fulfil more 'perfect white bread' specifications on paper......

:-)

On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 12:10:16 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Julian Fowler" wrote


I would like to add my support for ukrav. I'll certainly vote for it's
creation. I remain perplexed by the hostility of certain ukra subscribers
to
the simple assertion that music sounds better on vinyl to many people,

I have no problem with such assertions ... however, I do get irritated
when some of the vinyl enthusiasts mutate this statement to "music
*is* better on vinyl".


Strange, since I prefer music on vinyl, for me, "music *is* better on
vinyl". (I'd be daft to prefer it, if it sounded worse, wouldn't I?)

Yes, but you definitely fall into the "reasonable" camp, Keith - you
don't tend to claim that vinyl sounds better to you because of some
spurious technical superiority. You like it because you like it ...

What
troubles me is that vinylphobes can't stand to hear that someone prefers
vinyl without being irritated while most vinylphiles I know are very happy
to hear someone prefers digital and really couldn't care less.

Can't comment ... whilst not being a vinylphile (I do listen to vinyl,
albeit only where the music concerned is not readily available in
digital form, or I've not yet got round to purchasing it on CD) I'm
not a vinylphobe either. The "irritation" (which, to be honest, is
only minor as far as I'm concerned) is when over-zealous vinylphiles
jump from statements of preference to statements of technical
superiority.

Best of all, I suppose, is that some people can happily 'mix and match' both
without getting bent out shape about it all. (Although, the fact I can't
doesn't bother me too much....)


Anyone can have a subjective preference;
hopefully creation of a new group that is specific to those with with
a preference for vinyl will reduce the no. of posts to uk.rec.audio
trying to claim that CD is not objectively/technically superior to
vinyl as an accurate reproduction mechanism.

and
the tedious and patronising attempts made to 'prove' that vinyl users are
somehow mistaken or delusional.


Yes indeed - removal of this very 'LP vs. digital' deadlock is one of the
reasons for proposing a separate vinyl ng.


... as opposed to the tedious and delusional attempts to 'prove' that
vinyl is somehow technically superior to CD. Its like a Morris Minor
enthusiast trying to argue that his/her preference makes the Moggie
technically superior to a BMW 7-series ;-)


Fine, except that have you really ever seen/heard a Moggie owner

yes (usually in form claims that Moggies are "environmentally
friendly")

(or
vinylphile) make these 'technically superior' remarks?

yes. Maybe its the mark of a true vinylphile that he/she doesn't see
claims that vinyl has (for example) better dynamic range than CD as
being technical incorrect. Likewise the denial that the mastering
techniques necessary to create a vinyl disc involve substantial
degradation of the source material which is not necessary with CD
mastering processes.

I think you will find
it is actually the longest-running strawman argument in ukra.

Vinylphiles may claim 'sonic superiority' and will certainly express a
personal preference, vinylphobes are uncomfortable with this (doesn't match
their own 'scientific' findings) and substitute the word 'technical' in
their little, er, ****** heads!

Now try this one - home-baked bread is much better than a supermarket sliced
white loaf despite the fact that the supermarket loaf will very likely
fulfil more 'perfect white bread' specifications on paper......

.... um, since when did white bread have anything to do with accuracy
of audio reproduction? Maybe the key difference *is* that vinylphiles
have a preference for a certain sound (and the common claims in favour
of valve amplifiers in conjunction with vinyl suggest that "certain
sound" to be an inaccurate, coloured one), whereas those with a
preference for CD are seeking the best possible reproduction of music
as intended by the artists, engineers, and producers responsible for
it. If your interest is with accuracy then specifications are
important - if your interest is in a sound you like (without much
attention to the relationship between what you are hearing and what
was recorded) then I agree that specs and measurements are irrelevant
to you.

Julian


--
Julian Fowler
julian (at) bellevue-barn (dot) org (dot) uk

"Julian Fowler" wrote


Strange, since I prefer music on vinyl, for me, "music *is* better on
vinyl". (I'd be daft to prefer it, if it sounded worse, wouldn't I?)

Yes, but you definitely fall into the "reasonable" camp, Keith - you
don't tend to claim that vinyl sounds better to you because of some
spurious technical superiority. You like it because you like it ...


Thanks for that - I really have no opinion about someone else's expressed
preference for any 'non vinyl' medium. Whatever floats their boat is
perfectly fine by me! (A view I think you will find is shared by nearly all
'vinylheads'.....)

(Also not totally unaware that banging on about vinyl is only creating
'competition' for vinyl related stuff and any resultant increased demand,
while it may improve choice, can only drive prices up at the end of the
day!)



What
troubles me is that vinylphobes can't stand to hear that someone prefers
vinyl without being irritated while most vinylphiles I know are very
happy
to hear someone prefers digital and really couldn't care less.

Can't comment ... whilst not being a vinylphile (I do listen to vinyl,
albeit only where the music concerned is not readily available in
digital form, or I've not yet got round to purchasing it on CD) I'm
not a vinylphobe either. The "irritation" (which, to be honest, is
only minor as far as I'm concerned) is when over-zealous vinylphiles
jump from statements of preference to statements of technical
superiority.


Again, I can only state I'm not aware of many (if any) such statements. I
think what it is the 'vinylphobes/digiphiles' take enthusiastic remarks
about 'lifelike' 'engaging' and 'presence' (or whatever) and translate them
into 'accuracy' 'dynamic range' etc.



For the record:

ukra = 'vinyl enthusiasm' is anathema

ukrav = 'vinyl enthusiasm' is mandatory

OK?

:-)


snip

Fine, except that have you really ever seen/heard a Moggie owner

yes (usually in form claims that Moggies are "environmentally
friendly")


Which, if caring ownership of a well-tuned Moggie for, say, 30 years, means
that a square mile (or two) of rainforest hasn't been chopped down to
provide the 15 or so '2 year replacements' in that time, is a perfectly
reasonable claim, IME.



(or
vinylphile) make these 'technically superior' remarks?

yes. Maybe its the mark of a true vinylphile that he/she doesn't see
claims that vinyl has (for example) better dynamic range than CD as
being technical incorrect. Likewise the denial that the mastering
techniques necessary to create a vinyl disc involve substantial
degradation of the source material which is not necessary with CD
mastering processes.

I think you will find
it is actually the longest-running strawman argument in ukra.

Vinylphiles may claim 'sonic superiority' and will certainly express a
personal preference, vinylphobes are uncomfortable with this (doesn't
match
their own 'scientific' findings) and substitute the word 'technical' in
their little, er, ****** heads!

Now try this one - home-baked bread is much better than a supermarket
sliced
white loaf despite the fact that the supermarket loaf will very likely
fulfil more 'perfect white bread' specifications on paper......

... um, since when did white bread have anything to do with accuracy
of audio reproduction?


At about the same time as the mention of the Morris Minor.......


Maybe the key difference *is* that vinylphiles
have a preference for a certain sound (and the common claims in favour
of valve amplifiers in conjunction with vinyl suggest that "certain
sound" to be an inaccurate, coloured one), whereas those with a
preference for CD are seeking the best possible reproduction of music
as intended by the artists, engineers, and producers responsible for
it. If your interest is with accuracy then specifications are
important - if your interest is in a sound you like (without much
attention to the relationship between what you are hearing and what
was recorded) then I agree that specs and measurements are irrelevant
to you.


Your mention of valves raises a very good point. It is my contention that
'valves & vinyl' go together like cheese and pickle and combine to create an
utterly sublime sound. ('Accurate', 'distorted', 'coloured' or not - I
really couldn't give a sh*t, I simply never tire of it!) I often wonder if
vinyl would have quite so many detractors here if they had had the chance to
hear the 'full monty'.....

On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 14:19:53 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Julian Fowler" wrote
snip

Can't comment ... whilst not being a vinylphile (I do listen to vinyl,
albeit only where the music concerned is not readily available in
digital form, or I've not yet got round to purchasing it on CD) I'm
not a vinylphobe either. The "irritation" (which, to be honest, is
only minor as far as I'm concerned) is when over-zealous vinylphiles
jump from statements of preference to statements of technical
superiority.


Again, I can only state I'm not aware of many (if any) such statements.

Sometimes I wonder whether we're reading different newsgroups :-)

I noticed that you snipped my comment about vinyl enthusiasts' denial
of the degradation involved in the mastering-for-vinyl process -- are
these also statements that you're unaware of?

I
think what it is the 'vinylphobes/digiphiles' take enthusiastic remarks
about 'lifelike' 'engaging' and 'presence' (or whatever) and translate them
into 'accuracy' 'dynamic range' etc.

Maybe you could explain to the unlightened how a recording can be
"lifelike" without being accurate.

Fine, except that have you really ever seen/heard a Moggie owner

yes (usually in form claims that Moggies are "environmentally
friendly")


Which, if caring ownership of a well-tuned Moggie for, say, 30 years, means
that a square mile (or two) of rainforest hasn't been chopped down to
provide the 15 or so '2 year replacements' in that time, is a perfectly
reasonable claim, IME.

Somehow, I'm not surprised that you'd say that ;-) How about
considerations like the % of recycleable parts in the Moggie, its
exhaust emissions, the long-term environmental damage caused by the
factory it was built in, ... Its no coincidence that countries that
have well-founded environmental policies give people substantial
subsidies to dispose of Moggies and their equivalents ...

snip

... um, since when did white bread have anything to do with accuracy
of audio reproduction?


At about the same time as the mention of the Morris Minor.......

The comparison between dominant technologies of the mid-20th century
(Morris Minor, vinyl records) and those of the early 21st century
(BMW, CD) seems valid to me.


Maybe the key difference *is* that vinylphiles
have a preference for a certain sound (and the common claims in favour
of valve amplifiers in conjunction with vinyl suggest that "certain
sound" to be an inaccurate, coloured one), whereas those with a
preference for CD are seeking the best possible reproduction of music
as intended by the artists, engineers, and producers responsible for
it. If your interest is with accuracy then specifications are
important - if your interest is in a sound you like (without much
attention to the relationship between what you are hearing and what
was recorded) then I agree that specs and measurements are irrelevant
to you.


Your mention of valves raises a very good point. It is my contention that
'valves & vinyl' go together like cheese and pickle and combine to create an
utterly sublime sound. ('Accurate', 'distorted', 'coloured' or not - I
really couldn't give a sh*t, I simply never tire of it!) I often wonder if
vinyl would have quite so many detractors here if they had had the chance to
hear the 'full monty'.....

I have ... and I'll admit that a high-end vinyl/valve system can sound
very good. On the other hand, any competent CD based system sounds at
least as good, if not better (to me).

Julian


--
Julian Fowler
julian (at) bellevue-barn (dot) org (dot) uk

Message-ID: from Keith G
contained the following:

Strange, since I prefer music on vinyl, for me, "music *is* better on
vinyl". (I'd be daft to prefer it, if it sounded worse, wouldn't I?)

It must surely depend on what it is.

I prefer film to video, but dramas such as Casualty seem to have more
immediacy on video.

That said, any analogue copy is a degradation from the original.

--
Geoff Berrow
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

Message-ID: from Keith G
contained the following:

For the record:

ukra = 'vinyl enthusiasm' is anathema

ukrav = 'vinyl enthusiasm' is mandatory

How are you recording that? ;-)

--
Geoff Berrow
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

"Geoff Berrow" wrote in message
...
Message-ID: from Keith G
contained the following:

Strange, since I prefer music on vinyl, for me, "music *is* better on
vinyl". (I'd be daft to prefer it, if it sounded worse, wouldn't I?)

It must surely depend on what it is.


Why?



I prefer film to video, but dramas such as Casualty seem to have more
immediacy on video.


No idea......



That said, any analogue copy is a degradation from the original.


I've never said it wasn't - any 'copy' in this life is a degradation from
the original.......