Arny proclaims to have a BA in engineering earned in 1973 ?
 

wrote in message
oups.com...


Keith G wrote:
"Iain M Churches" wrote
What TF happened here though:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Outburst.wav
- sounds pretty scary to me!! ?? ;-)

That sound is the culmination of years of pressure
and expectation
being vented through his 'blow hole'... ;-)

Or maybe it's the client when he hears Arny's
recording for the
first time:-))

That recording wasn't Arny's apparently...

Though it is _of_ Arny Krueger, at the HE2005 debate,
excerpted
from the MP3. I actually used the pickup from _my_ podium
mike
for that section of the MP3 as Arny clipped the heck out
of the
output of the mike in front of him. Makes me glad I put
the
windshields on the mikes :-)

I seriously doubt I actually clipped a SM81 at that
distance, primal scream included.

More likely, the mic preamp's gain was misadjusted so that
the audio interface clipped.

Regrettably, this is a common problem with people who don't
really understand the dynamic range properties of modern
digital audio gear and the inherent nature of live
performances.

Many of such people seem to turn out to be primarily
audiophiles.

Apparently, some people can do unclipped live recording with
wide-dynamic range audio gear, and others can't. ;-)

Since I've done about 200 live recording gigs...

Arny proclaims to have a BA in engineering earned in 1973 ?
 

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
I actually used the pickup from _my_ podium mike for that
section of the MP3 as Arny clipped the heck out of the
output of the mike in front of him.

I seriously doubt I actually clipped a SM81 at that distance,
primal scream included. More likely, the mic preamp's gain was
misadjusted so that the audio interface clipped.

To be pedantically correct, yes, it was the A/D that clipped,
not the mike. However, as you well know Arny, having a copy of
the raw 2-channel AIF file that I sent you, I allowed plenty of
headroom for normal speaking voice. What I did not expect you to
do was lean toward the mike and scream at the top of your voice. :-)

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Arny proclaims to have a BA in engineering earned in 1973 ?
 

"Iain M Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
.. .

wrote

I actually used the pickup from _my_ podium mike
for that section of the MP3 as Arny clipped the heck
out of the
output of the mike in front of him. Makes me glad I put
the
windshields on the mikes :-)

Maybe he got carried away in the excitement of the
occasion.

Maybe someone doesn't know how to set levels and avoid
clipping.

In live recording, there's a 10 dB rule. You set the levels
for 10 dB headroom over whatever levels you see in
rehearsal. With the 100+ dB electrical noise floor we now
enjoy, losing a few dB at the top is not significant.

When I record the same ground in the same venue repeatedly,
I set levels for 10 dB headroom over the highest observed
levels, whether in rehearsal or performance. Headroom is
cheap while clipping can ruin an expensive recording.

However, many audiophiles have believed the crap that is
written in the audiophile press about low level artifacts
with digital. They try for the highest possible levels and
foolishly ruin their recordings instead.

One irony of the debate is that it appears that a well-known
promulgator of misapprehensions about digital ruined his own
recording by believing his own garbage technology. Tell me
there isn't a just God! ;-)

That to me was one of the most interesting points that
Arny raised.
Listener training, now known as "audio perception" is
something not
often discussed. It's a fascinating subject, and
something which in
my experience professional musicians often excell.
Just as Arny said, it is a skill that needs to be
developed.
It takes time and hard work.

There is formal and informal, was well as general and
specific listener training. Informal listener training is
what I'd call what most audiophiles and reviewers do. Its
typically a very slow process with questionable outcome.
Formal listener training is what I provide at my PCABX web
site - there are specific exercises with stated outcomes
that people should work towards. The exercises are graded
and become more difficult.

General listener training tries to to prepare people for
critical listening challenges in situations where the
specifics are not well-known. There are a number of
different kinds of things that people should listen for,
perhaps best and most completely described in AES Standard
number 20. I find that AES20, while the most general list
that I know of from a standards organization is a bit
incomplete. I posted an augmented version of it at at my
PCABX web site.

Specific listener training is designed to get the best
possible performance out of listeners in a given listening
test. As I mentioned at the debate, PCABX tries to do this
by presenting the difference being tested for in an
augmented form, and then by reducing it in logical steps to
the actual test level.

Similar methodologies are described in the scientific
literature of hearing and acoustics, and is also mentioned
in the Benjamin and Gannon AES paper about jitter for
example.

Compare this to what you read in the audiophile ragazines,
and weep for the blind and mentally dead.

Arny proclaims to have a BA in engineering earned in 1973 ?
 

In article .com,
wrote:
To be pedantically correct, yes, it was the A/D that clipped,
not the mike. However, as you well know Arny, having a copy of
the raw 2-channel AIF file that I sent you, I allowed plenty of
headroom for normal speaking voice. What I did not expect you to
do was lean toward the mike and scream at the top of your voice. :-)


Heh heh. I well remember putting in a rig for a pro sound meeting in a
medium sized recording studio which was as quiet as the grave. Really only
for a transcript of the proceedings, but since there were decent monitors
for some playbacks I 'bled' some in. But had set the podium mic such that
it didn't look obtrusive and for the same reason used a KM85 with no
windshield.

Introducing the meeting, the chairman - a pro with some 20 odd years
experience - grabbed the mic and used it like you would an SM58 in a noisy
hall. Didn't half pop. Luckily I'd switched in the limiter on the mixer.;-)

--
*Wrinkled was not one of the things I wanted to be when I grew up

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Arny proclaims to have a BA in engineering earned in 1973 ?
 

wrote in message
oups.com...


Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...

I actually used the pickup from _my_ podium mike for
that
section of the MP3 as Arny clipped the heck out of the
output of the mike in front of him.


I seriously doubt I actually clipped a SM81 at that
distance,
primal scream included. More likely, the mic preamp's
gain was
misadjusted so that the audio interface clipped.

To be pedantically correct, yes, it was the A/D that
clipped,
not the mike.

John, you call it pedantry, I call it describing what
actually happened in clear, simple terms that lead to the
best possible understanding of what really happened. Sort of
like good reporting.

However, as you well know Arny, having a copy of
the raw 2-channel AIF file that I sent you,

John, you didn't send me an AIFF, you sent me a .WAV. They
are analogous, but they aren't the same. Since the original
recorded file was probably an AIFF there is an unknown
amount of production between what I saw recorded in the
Hilton, and what I have before me. I have no doubts that the
verbiage is indentically the same. Other than that, who
knows?

For openers, under the conditions I might have easily
recorded a 24 bit .wav, for example.

I allowed plenty of
headroom for normal speaking voice.

Not at all. Your channel has one protracted instance of
clipping earlier in the session, and my channel has numerous
approaches within a dB or less of clipping.

I guess you never heard of the 10 dB rule for live
recording, John. In a similar vein, what do you know about
the 3:1 rule? ;-)

Are we doing live recording 101 today? ;-)

What I did not expect you to
do was lean toward the mike and scream at the top of your
voice. :-)

OK, smiley as in nonesense.

Besides the scream there are several other instances of
protracted clipping in my channel.

Arny proclaims to have a BA in engineering earned in 1973 ?
 

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Maybe someone doesn't know how to set levels and avoid
clipping.

In live recording, there's a 10 dB rule. You set the levels
for 10 dB headroom over whatever levels you see in
rehearsal. With the 100+ dB electrical noise floor we now
enjoy, losing a few dB at the top is not significant.

Hmm. For location drama recording I use a radio link from mic to mixer
with a 110dB sig noise. The mixer being analogue is somewhat worse than
that. Recorded straight to DigiBeta. So in theory, only one gain setting
on the mixer should be fine for whispering or shouting - assuming the mic
is roughly at the same distance each time. But life's not like that
otherwise there would be no need for a sound recordist on progs which have
a dub afterwards.

--
*The closest I ever got to a 4.0 in school was my blood alcohol content*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Arny proclaims to have a BA in engineering earned in 1973 ?
 

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
I guess you never heard of the 10 dB rule for live
recording, John. In a similar vein, what do you know about
the 3:1 rule? ;-)

BBC line up for a digital recorder is -18 dBFS using zero level tone which
is 8dB below broadcasting peak. So 10 dB of headroom.

But most US gear seems to use -20 dBFS ;-)

--
*The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Arny proclaims to have a BA in engineering earned in 1973 ?
 

"Iain M Churches" wrote


Feck me, he came out of the trap like an Arab paperboy cycling through
Golders Green and chased Pinky all over the place, getting into endless,
boring slanging matches. It went on for a while, getting on everybody's
tits, then one day, suddenly he was gone!!

A little research shows that SP doesn't get on with many people on
most of the groups to which he subscribes.



Pinky *knows* audio (some), *likes* arguments....

Arny proclaims to have a BA in engineering earned in 1973 ?
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Jun 2005 21:00:10 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Iain M Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
.. .

OK. You *are* Ronnie McKinley and I claim my 5 UKP......

Sorry Keith, that's lost on me.


OK, it's just something I'm reminded of:

The 'Bonnie Ronnie McKinley' was a jovial Oirishman who bounced into here
a
couple of years back and very quickly fell foul of Pinky.

Jovial? McKinley, *jovial*? Hardly................

He was a pretentious little junk shop owner who knew sod all about
audio.


Should'a slipped into this group like a hand into a glove then.....

Arny proclaims to have a BA in engineering earned in 1973 ?
 

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
However, as you well know Arny, having a copy of
the raw 2-channel AIF file that I sent you,

John, you didn't send me an AIFF, you sent me a .WAV. They
are analogous, but they aren't the same.

I don't see it matters. The original was a 24-bit WAV; I
sent you a WAV version which was what you asked for.

Since the original recorded file was probably an AIFF there
is an unknown amount of production between what I saw recorded
in the Hilton, and what I have before me.

Other than the format change for your convenience, they are identical.

I allowed plenty of headroom for normal speaking voice.

Not at all. Your channel has one protracted instance of
clipping earlier in the session, and my channel has
numerous approaches within a dB or less of clipping.

With respect, I suspect that you are delusional, Mr. Krueger. Looking
at
both the waveform and its associated statistics, there is 4-8dB
headroom
on your channel and 10-12dB on mine at almost all times. The only
exceptions
are the applause at the beginning and end, which peaks close to 0dB but
without actually clipping, one instance (-2dBFS at 25:23) where you
leaned
toward the mike to emphasize the word "always," one instance (-1.5dBFS
at 11:04) where you coughed into your mike while I was speaking, and
the
instance being referred to, where you leaned close to the micophone and
screamed as loud as you could.

That is the only time where the waveform clips in either channel. I
will
happily send anyone interested relevant screenshots if they wish.

I guess you never heard of the 10 dB rule for live recording, John.

Yup, that's what I allowed. You spoke a little louder during the debate
than
you had when you asked you to speak so I could set levels, but not so
much
that you got near clipping _other_ than when you leaned into the mike
and
screamed. I must admit that I was not expecting you to do that, but as
I
said, as the destination format was mono, I simply substituted the
output
from my mike at that point.

What I did not expect you to do was lean toward the mike and scream at
the top of your voice. :-)

OK, smiley as in nonesense.

That is what you did, Mr. Krueger. Are you now saying you didn't? You
scared the heck out of the AV staff, who were worried about their gear.
Show staff rushed in from outside the seminar room to see what had
happened.

Besides the scream there are several other instances of protracted clipping
in my channel.

This is simply not true, Mr. Krueger. As I said, I will gladly send
anyone who
doubts me screenshots. And if you say you will do likewise, Mr.
Krueger, then
please let me point out that it is trivially easy for you to fudge the
file to
make it look as if there is waveform clipping while it is difficult for
me to
do the opposite without manually eliminating every one of what would be
a large
number of flat-topped peaks.

You sadden me, Mr. Krueger, with your apparent desperation to score
points off
someone who covered your expenses to appear at HE2005 and who has
treated you
with respect and courtesy. It also saddens me that others appear to
have been
taken in by your dissembling. :-(

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile