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The real reason the British Motorcycle Industry failed...



 
 
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old August 12th 05, 08:14 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Ian Bell
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Posts: 300
Default The real reason the British Motorcycle Industry failed...

Keith G wrote:


"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:



....is because, by the time the Far Eastern competion came on song, it
had
become utterly toss-useless and was:

Offering poorly designed ('parts bin') and poorly constructed expensive
and highly unreliable products.

Was riddled with 'us and them' management.

Was underfunded and permantly cash-poor due to unending high volumes of
warranty claims and 'head in the clouds' owners/directors remunerating
themselves out of all proportion to performance.


Don't forget the stupid unions too. I was on a stand at a pro audio
exhibition in the 70's and I needed to attach a mains plug to a piece of
equipment. I had to hide in a small cubby hole to do it because if the
exhibition electricians had seen me they would have been out on strike.



I would suggest that much of the Unions' impetus in the 60s and 70s was
fuelled by the 'us and them management' referenced above - the masses in
this country had been promised a New Deal while risking mass slaughter in
WW2 and were a bit ticked off to see the same old 'us and them' BS sliding
back into place once the smoke had cleared.


What a load of rubbish. The standard of living in the UK in the 60s was
roaring ahead and it was only the stupid union 'barons' whose ambitions
were primarily political that slowed it down. Thank god Maggie sorted those
plonkers out.

Ian

A little enlightenment (like
that displayed by the famous Japanese 'Names' at the time) would have gone
a long way to keeping this country on track, but then there was Maggie
Thatcher....


  #22 (permalink)  
Old August 12th 05, 08:17 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Rob
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Posts: 155
Default The real reason the British Motorcycle Industry failed...

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:47:17 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:


In article ,
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

I had an exhibition centre electrician who claimed that it couldn't have
been him who blew up my computer because he only disconnected the earth
for a moment. So maybe unions and rules aren't all bad.


Rules are good, proper training is better, unions tend to be dominated
by incompetent assholes who don't want to improve the lot of their
members, they just want to bring down the 'evil capitalists'. Been
there, done that in ASTMS.


Then you've got little experience of a properly run union. The idea of
them - or most of them - being run like that is media wanking. And the
media was far worse than most in having poor management which appeased the
unions for their own ends - ie instant profits.



Did you miss the 'been there, done that' quote? I was an ASTMS rep in
the '70s, but I packed it in because the full-time officials weren't
interested in getting a better deal for their members, they just
wanted to bring down caplitalism. I saw no evidence that other unions
were any different.


Leaving aside the notion that 'bringing down' capitalism may well be the
only way to bring a genuine better deal for the workers, I think you'll
find that unions have changed considerably in the last 15 years. Unions
now tend to be wealthy businesses in themselves following mergers. Union
officials, particularly at national level, appear to be more interesting
in sustaining capitalism IME.
  #23 (permalink)  
Old August 12th 05, 09:11 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Don Pearce
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Posts: 1,412
Default The real reason the British Motorcycle Industry failed...

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:17:52 +0000 (UTC), Rob
wrote:

Leaving aside the notion that 'bringing down' capitalism may well be the
only way to bring a genuine better deal for the workers, I think you'll
find that unions have changed considerably in the last 15 years. Unions
now tend to be wealthy businesses in themselves following mergers. Union
officials, particularly at national level, appear to be more interesting
in sustaining capitalism IME.


Do you reckon they've finally realised that without capitalism there
are no jobs for their precious members? Or are they just doing what
every socialist throughout history has done - grab whatever they can
for themselves.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
  #24 (permalink)  
Old August 12th 05, 09:59 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Rob
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Posts: 155
Default The real reason the British Motorcycle Industry failed...

Don Pearce wrote:
On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:17:52 +0000 (UTC), Rob
wrote:


Leaving aside the notion that 'bringing down' capitalism may well be the
only way to bring a genuine better deal for the workers, I think you'll
find that unions have changed considerably in the last 15 years. Unions
now tend to be wealthy businesses in themselves following mergers. Union
officials, particularly at national level, appear to be more interesting*
in sustaining capitalism IME.



*'interested' typo!


Do you reckon they've finally realised that without capitalism there
are no jobs for their precious members? Or are they just doing what
every socialist throughout history has done - grab whatever they can
for themselves.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com


No, I don't think that. I think they think that workers working in
relatively poor conditions is a perfectly practical pragmatic situation.
I don't think they see as far ahead as a non-capitalist society.

I'm not sure that every socialist has done 'wealth grab'. Almost by
definition every capitalist has.

My point is that national unions are more part of a problem than a solution.

Rob
  #25 (permalink)  
Old August 12th 05, 10:39 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Don Pearce
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,412
Default The real reason the British Motorcycle Industry failed...

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:59:09 +0000 (UTC), Rob
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:17:52 +0000 (UTC), Rob
wrote:


Leaving aside the notion that 'bringing down' capitalism may well be the
only way to bring a genuine better deal for the workers, I think you'll
find that unions have changed considerably in the last 15 years. Unions
now tend to be wealthy businesses in themselves following mergers. Union
officials, particularly at national level, appear to be more interesting*
in sustaining capitalism IME.



*'interested' typo!


Do you reckon they've finally realised that without capitalism there
are no jobs for their precious members? Or are they just doing what
every socialist throughout history has done - grab whatever they can
for themselves.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com


No, I don't think that. I think they think that workers working in
relatively poor conditions is a perfectly practical pragmatic situation.
I don't think they see as far ahead as a non-capitalist society.

I'm not sure that every socialist has done 'wealth grab'. Almost by
definition every capitalist has.

The big difference though is that the capitalist typically think in
terms of the quid pro quo - because that is how it works - while the
socialist will think only of the grab. And of course every socialist
hasn't done this - just the ones who got the chance.

My point is that national unions are more part of a problem than a solution.


I remember the days of Jack Dash and Red Robbo. You are so right.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
  #26 (permalink)  
Old August 12th 05, 11:01 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
captain ahab
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default The real reason the British Motorcycle Industry failed...

Ian Bell wrote:
Keith G wrote:


"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:



....is because, by the time the Far Eastern competion came on song, it
had
become utterly toss-useless and was:

Offering poorly designed ('parts bin') and poorly constructed expensive
and highly unreliable products.

Was riddled with 'us and them' management.

Was underfunded and permantly cash-poor due to unending high volumes of
warranty claims and 'head in the clouds' owners/directors remunerating
themselves out of all proportion to performance.


Don't forget the stupid unions too. I was on a stand at a pro audio
exhibition in the 70's and I needed to attach a mains plug to a piece of
equipment. I had to hide in a small cubby hole to do it because if the
exhibition electricians had seen me they would have been out on strike.



I would suggest that much of the Unions' impetus in the 60s and 70s was
fuelled by the 'us and them management' referenced above - the masses in
this country had been promised a New Deal while risking mass slaughter in
WW2 and were a bit ticked off to see the same old 'us and them' BS sliding
back into place once the smoke had cleared.


What a load of rubbish. The standard of living in the UK in the 60s was
roaring ahead and it was only the stupid union 'barons' whose ambitions
were primarily political that slowed it down. Thank god Maggie sorted those
plonkers out.

Ian

A little enlightenment (like
that displayed by the famous Japanese 'Names' at the time) would have gone
a long way to keeping this country on track, but then there was Maggie
Thatcher....


I find it interesting that two of the most successful post war
economies were the defeated nations in Germany and Japan. The other
roaring success has been the USA but I think the link to context and
culture that has been discussed so far is bang on the mark....British
post war arrogance...fuelled by the class system....created power
imbalances and disequilibrium. The unions were a reaction to pre-war
excesses and were necessary at the time but post war became part of the
class problem. Maggie was only a great leader because the 80's context
was right for Maggie...our society was fed up with the imbalance of
power and Maggie had the determination and leadership qualities to sort
it. Same was true for Churchill he was a great leader during 40-45 but
take them both out of their context and the walls came tumbling down.
Leaders come and go, but it is social cultures that matter.

Visit other parts of the world and we realise how fortunate we are to
have been born in place like the UK...The NHS relative to the vast
majority of other world healthcare is still a fantastic asset. Parents
risk their lives to get their kids to a school in parts of China and
Africa and yet so many people in the UK take our hard won 'rights' for
granted. Therefore the current threat to the UK economy is still
related to arrogance and context i.e. 'necessity is the mother of
invention' and survival is the ultimate necessity. If we want to find
success we perhaps need to embrace parts of the world that have genuine
needs rather than unfulfilled wants...by working more effectively with
China, Kenya, India and so on, we may discover the path to innovation.

I notice that Singapore has taken a duel approach. Awakened to the
threat of Shanghai it aims to strengthen its already close cultural
links and at the same time be the value added 'capital' of the Far East
by introducing policies that stimulate intersectional thinking;
integrating artists, scientists and engineers...here's the link;
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...UGT0E3EJN1.DTL
..

Robert

  #27 (permalink)  
Old August 12th 05, 11:38 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Keith G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,388
Default The real reason the British Motorcycle Industry failed...ng


"Terry" wrote

Design and manufacturing are not seperate functions.



Yes they are - Design is done by Italians, Engineering is the province of
Germans.


If the design is crap then manufacturing will build a crap
product.



A good manufacturer will (and does regualarly, AFAIK) correct design defects
in the manufacturing processes, a very good manufacturer will even report
the modifications to the designer...


In a recent Which report on vacuum cleaner reliability
Dyson came bottom with (on average) 3 repairs need in 5 years
compared with Panasonic of which 5% needed 1 repair
in a 5 year period.



We have a Dyson that looks the ******** (in an OTT) kinda way, falls on its
side all the time in regular use and clings to furniture and door frames
like it's terrified - although it might just possibly be down to my
'Hoovering' technique!! ;-) My wife has an upright one that needed a 'new
tube' which was priced at (I think) about 29 quid as a replacement spare -
they got one for about *2* quid off eBay! (It was asimple, non-moving part
that should *never* have failed...)


Innovation and technique are useless without sound engineering
practice.



Innovation, technique and sound engineering go for naught if the *product*
is too expensive for its intended market.....




  #28 (permalink)  
Old August 12th 05, 12:14 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
captain ahab
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default The real reason the British Motorcycle Industry failed...ng

Product performance is a dynamic system of attributes..design is a
component of performance just as convenience, price, reliability etc.
The problem is the performance characteristic with most weight changes
with time and circumstances e.g. things go out of fashion, new
competitors change the benchmark of reliability and so on.

I think the critical factor is to be in control (as much as possible)
of the value chain and this is determined by intellectual
capital...brands, patents, trademarks etc. If you control the chain
you get to chose who does what, where and when.

  #29 (permalink)  
Old August 12th 05, 12:30 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Keith G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,388
Default The real reason the British Motorcycle Industry failed...


"Ian Bell" wrote


I would suggest that much of the Unions' impetus in the 60s and 70s was
fuelled by the 'us and them management' referenced above - the masses in
this country had been promised a New Deal while risking mass slaughter in
WW2 and were a bit ticked off to see the same old 'us and them' BS
sliding
back into place once the smoke had cleared.


What a load of rubbish.



Thank you.


The standard of living in the UK in the 60s was
roaring ahead



No, it was starting to 'get better' - the 'loadsamoney' era was two decades
after that.......


and it was only the stupid union 'barons' whose ambitions
were primarily political that slowed it down.



You throw the baby out with the bathwater with such a remark....

AFAIAA, Arthur Scargill's political ambition arose from his Union activites
when he and a few others were trying to prevent pit closures in this country
at the time we were buying coal from places like Germany and Poland. Red
Robbo, I'm not sure about - I believe car workers weren't doing too bad, but
in any case the company (building products mostly designed in Italy) was
heading down the same road as the British Motorcycle Industry for all the
same reasons.


Thank god Maggie sorted those
plonkers out.



Another silly 'unenlightened' remark - the situation was reaching burnout by
the time that stupid bitch got hold of all the dweeps and butt-kissers in
this country and turned it into an 'entrepreneurial paradise' where family
members were starting to invoice each other for work done in the home....

What comfy 40 quid an hour Trained Chimps like you don't realise (or don't
want to realise) is that when you sit down to a 4.99 plat de jour and glass
of screech is that some poor sod has stood in an unheated shed in East
Anglia peeling onions/beetroot or whatever all week for less than two quid
an hour - used to be middle aged mums, now it's Chinamen and Latvian medical
students all nicely under the control of the likes of Bernard Matthews who,
I'm certain, has to be related to Maggie Thatcher....

Exploiting people who are trapped by circumstance might not bother you, but
it bloody well bothers me...





  #30 (permalink)  
Old August 12th 05, 12:43 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Keith G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,388
Default The real reason the British Motorcycle Industry failed...


"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Ian Bell wrote:
Don't forget the stupid unions too. I was on a stand at a pro audio
exhibition in the 70's and I needed to attach a mains plug to a piece of
equipment. I had to hide in a small cubby hole to do it because if the
exhibition electricians had seen me they would have been out on strike.


You've never seen plugs fitted so badly they could be a serious health
risk in a public environment? I have. And plenty of equipment in use
there
which is downright dangerous.



Indeed and most of them fitted by so called 'qualified' union members. My
point was that union membership was no guarantee of competence p- usually
quite the opposite. I on the other hand was a qualified engineer but not
part of the union. That was what was so stupid about the situation.




Another remark reeking of the 'us and then' divisiveness that, along with
the 'class distinction' culture in this country, fuels the problems
referenced throughout this thread....

Get over yourself Ian - your life will take a major turn for the worse when
those guys with tattoos and pony tails stop wheeling away your poop on a
weekly basis.....





 




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