"Roderick Stewart" wrote in message
om...
In article , Keith G wrote:
The mystery to me is I certainly can't differentiate between speaker
cables,
but I have a couple of sets of 'Monster XP' cables that my brother gave
me
because 'he didn't like the sound of them'!! (??)

That's no mystery at all. The fact that your brother *believes* he made a
difference by changing the cables doesn't mean that he actually did.


Of course not....


The laws
of physics apply just as much to your brother as to anybody else,


Of course they do....

Why are you telling me this??


and I'm sure
he'd also be welcome to attend the listening tests if he thinks he can
prove
otherwise.


I think you missed this bit:

(He's got a stack of matching Denon gear some years old now, otherwise he's
not the least bit interested in 'hifi'...!!!)

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/forum1/2862.html

A new thread. I believe. The older thread did continue as you say
unabated. It appears that anyone who doubts the sellers of the cable
get abused immediately.
They appear to be picking on some people at another forum
http://forum.hifichoice.co.uk as well.

Joe Folly wrote:
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/forum1/2862.html

A new thread. I believe. The older thread did continue as you say
unabated. It appears that anyone who doubts the sellers of the cable
get abused immediately.
They appear to be picking on some people at another forum
http://forum.hifichoice.co.uk as well.


"What is a newsgroup. All I get a list of them. looks like a jumbled up
over complicated forum."

(Sigh) I think I have been using the Internet for too many years now.

--
Nick

On 10 Jan 2006 04:59:43 -0800, "Joe Folly"
wrote:

Stewart
You are being well and truly abused over on wigwam at the moment.I am
at a loss as to why as you have never posted there.

Please don't confuse me with someone who cares what a bunch of dimwits
and conmen think. That 'forum' is only six months old, the kiddies
will get bored soon enough.

You have to laugh
dont you ? In fact James Randi is getting it too!

I suppose if you threaten someone's livelihood you get this reaction.

Indeed. These clowns do hate it when the voice of reason is raised. No
matter how deep the snake oil gets, I still canna' change the Laws o'
Physics, cap'n..............

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:35:06 +0000, Glenn Richards
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:

I think that pretty much without exception, all of us who believe
that competent cables are indistinguishable from high end cables are
coming from a scientific point of view. That means that we would
welcome being proved wrong as a route to further insight into the
subject.

Was resisting the temptation to jump in on this, but...

I believe there is a difference between cables, up to a point. Above
this point, a psychological difference comes into play.

I've done a blind test with a friend, as stated before. I was sitting
behind the system, and from there I couldn't hear a difference (not
surprising as the speakers were firing away from me towards soft
furnishings). He clearly heard a difference, as he was able to determine
100% of the time which cable was in use. This was comparing a freebie
with a Monster Interlink 100. When I described this before people
started bull****ting about "psychological effects"... someone implied
that perhaps he was using ESP or telepathy to "know" what cable was in
use. That's blatantly absurd, it's far more likely there was indeed a
difference.

Actually, it's far more likely that you are plain lying, given the
other fairy stories you so conveniently produced last time round.

So, why are *you* not stepping up to the plate?

I've done various tests myself (not blind tests I'll admit, but enough
to satisfy my own curiosity). I'm sure I've described them to you, but
for the benefit of anyone else who wasn't reading:

If not blind, then utterly useless.

Technics SL-PG590 CD player to SU-VX600 amp, dramatic difference between
freebie in the box cable and Cambridge Atlantic. No audible difference
between Atlantic, Pearl, Pacific and Chord Cobra II.

Connect Technics CD player to Arcam Black Box 50. Change cables between
DAC and amp. Huge difference from freebie to Atlantic, gradual
improvement with each step up the scale. Probably wouldn't bother going
above Cobra II though.

Speaker cable - swap from Gale XL-105 (HF) and XL-189 (LF) to Audio
Innovations Silver. Immediate improvement in detail, soundstaging, depth
etc. This was over a 5m run.

Swap between 1.5m lengths of XL-105 and Audio Innovations Silver on a
different system. Silver cable clearly sounded better. Tried swapping
only one speaker at a time, leaving one on XL-105 and the other on AI
Silver. Swapped over speaker cables to eliminate room acoustics. Clearly
better sound.

Bull****. You are a gutless clown.

Above a certain point however snake oil does come into play. I've had a
look at Russ Andrews catalogue, and somehow a few thousand quid for
speaker cable doesn't seem logical! There's an optimum... and it has to
be said, some of the speaker cable from Richer Sounds is particularly good.

Bull**** - just more of your wild and baseless claims.

If it's series resistance that's causing it, one can only assume that as
silver has a lower resistance than copper, that's why it sounds better.

Silver has lower *resistivity*, put an extra 6% of copper in there and
the *resistance* is the same.

One of these days when I can be bothered I'll run some tests. Have
thought of a couple of ways to prove scientifically there's a difference
between cables, will possibly post here when I've figured out how to put
the theory into practice.

I won't be holding my breath, given that a scientific method already
exists - DBT.

What is certain though is sending a 1kHz sine wave down any given cable
isn't going to prove anything other than series resistance.

Who ever said that it did? We're talking about *listening* tests here
- any fool can show *measured* differences among cables.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:58:33 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:

In article .com,
Joe
Folly wrote:
Stewart You are being well and truly abused over on wigwam at the
moment.I am at a loss as to why as you have never posted there. You have
to laugh dont you ? In fact James Randi is getting it too!

It is presumably easier to abuse someone if you do so in a place where you
think they may not be present. However that may say more about the
'abusers' than the abused...

How many of those abusing Stewart have said they will try his test and see
if they can take his money, I wonder...

That would be zero. It's noticeable that the guy who sells cable
doesn't want to prove his case *and* make a cool £1,000 on the side.

Gee, wouldn't that be good for business - if he didn't *know* that
he's just plain lying about these exotic power cables? Certainly, he
has no idea about the basic electronics of the situation.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:30:06 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 22:38:14 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

"neutron" wrote in message
...

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 21:12:10 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
news

It's all snake oil, smoke and mirrors, and Russ is well aware of
this.
I have personally offered £1,000 to anyone who can demonstrate the
audible supriority of 'audiophile' cables. That offer has been on
the
table for more than six years, and despite many loudmouthed claims
from the 'subjectivists', no one has even *tried* to claim the
prize.

**I'll take that offer, Stew. You know my conditions, I presume?

*The* conditions are that signals are level-matched at the speaker
terminals at 1kHz and 10kHz +/- 0.1dB, and you have to get better than
15 out of 20 double-blind trials correct.


I would do it. My conditions would be that I was given a few hours to
get
to
know the test system, and also have hear each of the cables in the test
system before the test starts. After that, your conditions sound good.
Is
that fair?

**Stewart has already covered his arse, by stating the frequency response
AT
THE SPEAKER TERMINALS must be within 0.1dB. Stewart knows full well that
it
is very easy to expose easily audible differences between speaker cables.
After level matching, that task becomes well nigh impossible.

That's not a matter of 'covering my arse', you twit.

**Of course you are. When you make an unqualified pronouncement:

"I have personally offered £1,000 to anyone who can demonstrate the audible
supriority of 'audiophile' cables."

I (and others) are entitled to take your claim at face value.

The rules have *always* been made perfectly clear, troll.

No one has ever
denied that it's possible to hear gross level mismatches, but when did
you ever see Kimber, Transparent et al making claims about cable
resistance?

**You mean here?

http://www.kimber.com/Products/LoudS.../4PR_Spec.aspx

Or here?

http://www.kimber.com/Products/LoudS.../8PR_Spec.aspx

Or here?

http://www.kimber.com/Products/LoudS...alXL_Spec.aspx

Anyway, you get the idea. Kimber cables DO tend to provide lower inductance
figures than *any* figure 8 (or Zip, to our US friends) cables. And make no
mistake, it is inductance which can cause big problems.

Not in any normal domestic system - as you're well aware.

No, this test is about debunking all the ******** about
special constructions and materials.

**Special construction provides low(er) inductance and may lead to
significant audible and measurable differences between cables. No ********
there. Just plain old engineering.

Bull****. I can replicate the most expensive Kimber or Alpha-Core MI
low inductance cable with a reel of cheap multiway ribbon cable, such
as you'll find inside your PC.

As you rightly say, get a level-match at the speaker terminals (which
you can do for a buck a foot against *any* 'audiophile' cable) and
there is no audible difference.

**Wanna bet? I'll choose the speakers and the cable length.

Fine - have at it.

Of course, you've been told all this
before, so you're simply trolling.

**Nope. I just feel that by glossing over the facts, you're just feeding the
ignorant. Tell them that there may well be audible differences in cables.
Then explain why. Without the explanations, many people just keep sucking up
the hype.

The facts are never 'glossed over', anyone can easily understand that
comparing 12AWG cable to 24 AWG over long runs is not a reasonable
test. OTOH, I have already compared fifteen feet of Naim NACA5,
probably the most inductive speaker cable you can buy, to an ultra-low
inductance design into my own 3-ohm speakers. There was a *measured*
difference of more than 1dB at 20kHz, but no *audible* difference
whatever.

You're just whining and crying for no apparent reason. What, do *you*
think that Kimber 'Black Pearl' has any value ina domestic hi-fi
system? If so, why?

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

I fully understand that you dont care, I am firmly in that camp myself.
It appears that the guy Frank Marshall is always being asked for
basic evidence of his wild claims and as usual nevers offers anything.

I have had a look at hifichoice forum and it appears that the
Hifiwigwam place is a spin off from there. There certainly does appear
to be a bit more reason a method og the hifichoice forum. If I may be
so bold as to offer two rather amusing threads from over there.

1) http://forum.hifichoice.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=15486 entitled the
myths of hifi. I laughed at many of them
2) http://forum.hifichoice.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=20913 entitled how to
win a hifi argument. A real peach this one.


Enjoy them

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:30:06 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 22:38:14 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:

"neutron" wrote in message
...

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 21:12:10 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
news
It's all snake oil, smoke and mirrors, and Russ is well aware of
this.
I have personally offered £1,000 to anyone who can demonstrate the
audible supriority of 'audiophile' cables. That offer has been on
the
table for more than six years, and despite many loudmouthed claims
from the 'subjectivists', no one has even *tried* to claim the
prize.

**I'll take that offer, Stew. You know my conditions, I presume?

*The* conditions are that signals are level-matched at the speaker
terminals at 1kHz and 10kHz +/- 0.1dB, and you have to get better
than
15 out of 20 double-blind trials correct.


I would do it. My conditions would be that I was given a few hours to
get
to
know the test system, and also have hear each of the cables in the
test
system before the test starts. After that, your conditions sound good.
Is
that fair?

**Stewart has already covered his arse, by stating the frequency
response
AT
THE SPEAKER TERMINALS must be within 0.1dB. Stewart knows full well that
it
is very easy to expose easily audible differences between speaker
cables.
After level matching, that task becomes well nigh impossible.

That's not a matter of 'covering my arse', you twit.

**Of course you are. When you make an unqualified pronouncement:

"I have personally offered £1,000 to anyone who can demonstrate the
audible
supriority of 'audiophile' cables."

I (and others) are entitled to take your claim at face value.

The rules have *always* been made perfectly clear, troll.


**Not so. Here are your words (in full):

"I have personally offered £1,000 to anyone who can demonstrate the audible
supriority of 'audiophile' cables."



No one has ever
denied that it's possible to hear gross level mismatches, but when did
you ever see Kimber, Transparent et al making claims about cable
resistance?

**You mean here?

http://www.kimber.com/Products/LoudS.../4PR_Spec.aspx

Or here?

http://www.kimber.com/Products/LoudS.../8PR_Spec.aspx

Or here?

http://www.kimber.com/Products/LoudS...alXL_Spec.aspx

Anyway, you get the idea. Kimber cables DO tend to provide lower
inductance
figures than *any* figure 8 (or Zip, to our US friends) cables. And make
no
mistake, it is inductance which can cause big problems.

**I note your lack of acknowledgement of Kmiber's specs, which are easily
available on their web site.



Not in any normal domestic system - as you're well aware.

**How long have Quad ESLs and other ESLs NOT been regarded as "normal
domsetic" speakers? I had always considered them to be domestic products.


No, this test is about debunking all the ******** about
special constructions and materials.

**Special construction provides low(er) inductance and may lead to
significant audible and measurable differences between cables. No ********
there. Just plain old engineering.

Bull****. I can replicate the most expensive Kimber or Alpha-Core MI
low inductance cable with a reel of cheap multiway ribbon cable, such
as you'll find inside your PC.

**No one suggested that you could not. That is not what you previously
stated.


As you rightly say, get a level-match at the speaker terminals (which
you can do for a buck a foot against *any* 'audiophile' cable) and
there is no audible difference.

**Wanna bet? I'll choose the speakers and the cable length.

Fine - have at it.

Of course, you've been told all this
before, so you're simply trolling.

**Nope. I just feel that by glossing over the facts, you're just feeding
the
ignorant. Tell them that there may well be audible differences in cables.
Then explain why. Without the explanations, many people just keep sucking
up
the hype.

The facts are never 'glossed over',

**In your words: ********. They are ALWAYS glossed over. There are
differences between speaker cables. Under some conditions, those differences
are measurably and audibly different. To suggest otherwise is blatant lying.


anyone can easily understand that
comparing 12AWG cable to 24 AWG over long runs is not a reasonable
test. OTOH, I have already compared fifteen feet of Naim NACA5,
probably the most inductive speaker cable you can buy, to an ultra-low
inductance design into my own 3-ohm speakers. There was a *measured*
difference of more than 1dB at 20kHz, but no *audible* difference
whatever.

You're just whining and crying for no apparent reason. What, do *you*
think that Kimber 'Black Pearl' has any value ina domestic hi-fi
system? If so, why?

**I can't find Black Pearl amongst their speaker cable listing. Is it a very
old, or a very new product? What is the inductance of the cable?


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 22:38:14 +0000, Trevor Wilson burbled:

snip

**Stewart has already covered his arse, by stating the frequency response
AT THE SPEAKER TERMINALS must be within 0.1dB. Stewart knows full well
that it is very easy to expose easily audible differences between speaker
cables. After level matching, that task becomes well nigh impossible.

He is quite right. You are testing for a difference in cables, not sound
level, so that has to be taken out of the equation. The level matching
also makes sure that the speakers are starting from the same common base
line. He has only fixed 2 frequency points to match, not the full response
curve and not via a mic, so there is plenty of room for exotic cables to
prove themselves - if they can.

--
Mick
(no M$ software on here... :-) )
Web: http://www.nascom.info
Web: http://projectedsound.tk