"Cessna172" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 14:25:01 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

I'm hoping 'one here' will be a very happy bunny when he hears these!!

slurps loudly ...

Cessna172


**** me - I was going to add a bit about 'the only Cessna fitted with
Lancaster undercarriage gear' to wind Ray up (he knows why! :-) and I
Googled 'Lancaster Bomber':

http://www.lancastermuseum.ca/lancbomber.html

Where I read this:

"During World War II the Lancaster was the most successful bomber used by
the Royal Air Force and the Royal Canadian Air Force.The Lanc had speed,
ceiling, and lifting power that no other aircraft of the day could match.
Weighing 36,900 pounds empty, the Lancaster was capable of taking off with
an additional 33,100 pounds of fuel and bombs; in other words it could
almost carry its own weight again. The Lancaster carried 64% of the tonnage
dropped by the RAF and RCAF during the war. The "Grand Slam", a 22,000 pound
special purpose bomb designed to penetrate concrete and explode below the
surface to create an earthquake effect, could only be delivered by the
Lancaster and the Lancaster was thus chosen for special operations such as
the "Dambusters" raid and the attack which sunk the German Battleship
Tirpitz."

"it could almost carry its own weight again"....!!!!

!!!!

Now *that's* what I call *engineering*!! (Feck, you gotta take your hat off
to these people - and no silly, sodding PCs available in those days!!)

Read the whole thing - gave me bloody goosebumps!!

"The Lancaster won the naval war by destroying over one-third of the German
submarines in their ports,
together with hundreds of small naval craft and six of their largest
warships."

Anyway, where wuz I?

Oh yes - Ray, you'd better bring that bloody sand amp of your up here (and a
bit of 'reference' music).

Remember Laurie Anderson 'Life On A String' Track 1 when you come and I'll
*show* you a 7/8 watt amp on 4 inch speakers making the the bloody door
frame *shudder*!! Gimme a shout direct when would be convenient - 'first
fitting' only, no fancy finishes!! ;-)

"Keith G" wrote

**** me - I was going to add a bit about 'the only Cessna fitted with
Lancaster undercarriage gear' to wind Ray up (he knows why! :-) and I
Googled 'Lancaster Bomber':

http://www.lancastermuseum.ca/lancbomber.html


I'm still freaked out by this site - see this also:

"The new bomber was immediately regarded as a success and large production
orders were placed. Avro's production facilities were soon overwhelmed, and
numerous other companies and contractors joined the effort to produce
Lancasters. Consisting of 55 000 separate parts, it has been estimated that
half a million different manufacturing operations were involved to produce
just one aircraft. Peak production was achieved during August 1944 when 293
aircraft were produced."


Jeez....

I'm gobsmacked - am I easily impressed or summat?

(I don't think today's muppets could *describe* that sort of
productivity/effort - let alone *do* it!!)

On 23 Feb 2006 07:37:16 -0800, "Andre Jute" wrote:

But the best price/performance ratio is
without a doubt the Cut C-Core transformers made by Lundahl of Sweden.
In blind listening tests we ran they were chosen over the elite
Japanese transformers at many times the price. The Lundahls are only
one or two steps above the bottom rung in price, they're
ultra-adaptable, and they measure and sound as good as the very best.
The downside is that they look like what they are (industrial
artififacts from the hidden end of the broadcast industry) but what the
hell, Lundahl will sell you a can to pot them in if you insist on
having your transformers on display. Many of the highest-profile DIY
tube amp designers in the world swear by Lundahl transformers.

While I would generally hesitate to agree with Jute, he is in this
case quite right. If you really must build a valve amplifier, then the
Lundahl range of transformers does indeed provide excellent
performance at realistic prices. This allows you to go for a more
optimised design than might otherwise be possible, particularly if for
some reason you decide to go down the technically crippled
single-ended route, with its horrific implications regarding core
saturation. Ya need seriously gang-banging iron for those suckers!

Basically, always buy a trannie that will handle a little more power
than you are designing for, rather than a little less. Your bottom end
will be eternally grateful...................
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On 23 Feb 2006 07:37:16 -0800, "Andre Jute" wrote:


While I would generally hesitate to agree with Jute, he is in this
case quite right. If you really must build a valve amplifier, then the
Lundahl range of transformers does indeed provide excellent
performance at realistic prices. This allows you to go for a more
optimised design than might otherwise be possible, particularly if for
some reason you decide to go down the technically crippled
single-ended route, with its horrific implications regarding core
saturation. Ya need seriously gang-banging iron for those suckers!

Basically, always buy a trannie that will handle a little more power
than you are designing for, rather than a little less. Your bottom end
will be eternally grateful...................
--

Keith has a good alternative to Lundahl, and practically on his doorstep.
- AE Sowter Ltd.

Iain

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...


G'd evening Keith!

I have just come back from a pleasant few hours fettling in my den of
excellence. A CCS cathode follower is bubbling nicely on the front
burner:-)

It seems that people find SET pleasing in a musical way.

Yes, this is fundamental. A better, more *pleasing* sound is what it's all
about AFAIAC....

Yes. My pal Peter Lewis used to call it the M (musicality) factor.
Peter was a design engineer at Leevers Rich, in the UK. He was a "real"
(not just an NG armchair) engineer, in that he was constantly building
and trying out something. He made a very good living even after retirement
building bespoke valve amps for discerning clients. He could offer the
features and attention to detail which no larger maker can offer.

It needs to be clearly stated that not everyone will like the SET/Horn
combination - I do, but then then I'm not overly endowed with the
*technical knowledge* that makes this 'difficult' for some people...!!
;-)

Hmm. Once the technical performance has been assessed,
and we know what the amp can (or cannot) do, why not sit back and
enjoy what it has to offer?

If valve amps are simply too expensive for impoverished/curious types,
they will never join the growing legions of 'thermionophiles'. I'm fairly
sure, that once they have got their feet wet, they will be curious about
'better amps' and, now that valves are almost parallel with SS stuff on
prices, a clear upgrade path becomes visible presenting some interesting
options.

Yes. Interesting point. My dealer pal tells me that he can offer an
entry level valve amp for about the same money as a mid price SS system.
From then on, the only way is up :-)

(Not so in the 'Podes, though - poor old Pat "Lend Us A Shag 'Til I Get
Paid" Turner is stoked. Over there they are buying dirt girt Chinese valve
amps with big squidgy feet for the sole purpose of flattening out out
their warped vinyl, I gather!! ;-)

Patrick is very smart. He keeps his outfit small, and offers a very good
build and repair service. He has an enviable reputation, and customers
recommend him to others, and keep coming back. His amplifiers are
excellent examples of "tube-craft". He is a very nice guy too, and always
ready with help and advice when asked.

Either way, valve amp builders will have to do more to convince the buying
public that they are offering superior quality now that they are up
against stiff competition - it's possibly harsh and will probably weed out
out a few of the weaker players, but it's for the good of all,
ultimately!!

Yes agreed. The problem is one of volume. I am told that there are
ten different brands of Chinese/Taiwanese/Thai amps all almost identical
and built in the same factory. Isn't that what British Leyland used to call
"badge engineering" in the sixties, with Austrin, Morris, Wolsely, Riley
etc etc??

The Chinese buy their transformers by the ship-load. An order of
20 pcs for a European winder, is cause for celebration. So costs are
many times higher.


Warranties from Chinese dealers (eBay) are *worthless* - when my volume
pot went tits up the dealer (Edmund Lam, aka 'Zagger1' on Fleabay)
promised a replacement - it never arrived. When I pointed this out to him
after some weeks, he promised to put another in the post - guess
what....??

This is leading to an interesting new development. There is a Swedish amp
builder I know who now offers a five year unconditional warranty, extendable
to ten years for his valve amps (90 days for valves) This is an expression
of confidence in the quality of his product.

There was a whole generation that missed out on thermionic audio.

I almost did. Obviously, radios and record players (stereograms) were
valves when I wuz a kid, but I wasn't taking much notice. Maybe I have/had
deep-seated/ingrained memories of the sound quality and was trying
unsuccessfully to find it with SS gear??

Could be:-) My father was the proud owner of a mono set up in the
fifties, Leak TL12. We used to listen to Schubert. Then I used to sneak
upstairs and play Elvis Presley "All Shook Up" on the Dansette (or
whatever the thing was called)

Nothin' like a bit of culture on a Sunday:-)

Iain

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...

Keith G wrote:
OK, but I gotta say my (possible) future amp plans would probably be more
along the lines of a top-flight 300B with '****-off' iron.....

(Not only is that on the back burner, but the cooker ain't even switched
on!!)

Keith:

Given on the assumption that by "'****-off' iron" you mean the very
best transformers, regardless of price:


No, not *regardless* of price - 'quality' within reasonable limits, but not
'budget iron' like Hammond....



Ever hear of the concept in economics of marginality? Technically it is
used to determine at which price per unit a perfect market clears. But
on the ground, and in core theory, it depends on the perception of
individuals about which products are worth more money because they give
greater satisfaction than the possession of the money. A corollary is
that greater and greater amounts of money at each step buy lesser and
lesser *increases* in satisfaction.


Well aware of that - it's commonly called the Law Of Diminishing Returns.

It is the very reason I tried the Chinese SETs - I guessed they would
represent excellent VFM (they do) and would not be too far behind the 'best'
(which I have yet to hear for myself) and would give me an idea without
spending a fortune on what might have been a Fool's Errand....



Your dream on the backburner is on the face of it not a bad idea.


On the back burner of an oven which is *not* even switched on remember - I
have just funded another computer build and will probably build one for
myself before I even think about more amps. 'Much later in the year (if this
year at all)' is the programme I have in mind...


For
instance, many of us own absolutely better tube amps than you do, and
in a large number of cases we can afford them only because we built
them ourselves. We consider the expenditure worthwhile, and the
pleasure of something of (often) our own design and construction adds
to the value perceived. However, you should not fall into the trap of
thinking that the difference between your cheap Chinese and our cheap
DIY at several times the price of cheap Chinese is a gulf the size of
the Grand Canyon. It is a marginal, incremental difference. Think about
it: you have already arrived in the top one half of one percent of
hi-fi; at this level of hi-fi, all margins are minutely incremental and
very expensive.


Well aware, once again - see above. Don't forget my first SET was the 2A3 I
built with parts from 'Fekki Norsum' which is described thus, in performance
(as, indeed, all his stuff is...). It is very nice and SET me on the road,
but the Chinese amps are just about as good which makes me very wary of
'hype'.......



We would find it a hardship to listen to your cheap chinese rather than
our cheap DIY. That is because we are used to what we have now and,
important this, have paid for it already and justified the cost to
ourselves.

You, having accustomed yourself to the cheap Chinese, and justified it
many times over, may be disappointed after paying several times the
cost of the cheap Chinese to discover that for so much money you have
gained only a small improvement in your sound.


Er, OK - got that *once again*....



At that, you will be in a better position than someone who has to lash
out ten times the price of the cheap Chinese to buy a good European or
American or Japanese tube amp on the open market. The difference will
come not only from the saved money but from the intrinsic DIY
satisfaction, which shines through your posts.


Yes, although the 'DIY satisfaction' is actually higher with the speakers
than it is with what amps I have built, for some reason....??

(Bigger, more immediately discernable differences possibly...??)



None of this will stop you if you really intend to go ahead.


Sure.


*****

When you do go ahead, here's a tip. If you really want "****-you iron",
give the boutique hypesters a miss and buy your iron by the pound.
Literally. I mean it. The best transformer designers and builders earn
most of their basic bread, and a good bit of their jam, from the
national broadcasters. In essence, they give you their expertise for
free because the broadcasters have paid for skill development and
product development.


OK.


snip interesting notes on trannies


having your transformers on display. Many of the highest-profile DIY
tube amp designers in the world swear by Lundahl transformers.


Yes indeed, that's one make that keeps cropping up - and the Sowters that I
see Iain has already mentioned. The interesting thing is there is apparently
a transformer manufacturer just down the road from here (used to supply WAD,
apparently). I don't know who it is or what they do, but come the time I
would make an effort to seek them out....??

Anyway, Jootius Frootius I appreciate your input - it was very interesting.
(Your posts invariably are when you are not showing off, crossposted to the
usual pillocks who have got nothing better to do than rake over the same
boring old ****, ad *nauseatissimo*.....!! ;-)

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On 23 Feb 2006 07:37:16 -0800, "Andre Jute" wrote:


While I would generally hesitate to agree with Jute, he is in this
case quite right. If you really must build a valve amplifier, then the
Lundahl range of transformers does indeed provide excellent
performance at realistic prices. This allows you to go for a more
optimised design than might otherwise be possible, particularly if for
some reason you decide to go down the technically crippled
single-ended route, with its horrific implications regarding core
saturation. Ya need seriously gang-banging iron for those suckers!

Basically, always buy a trannie that will handle a little more power
than you are designing for, rather than a little less. Your bottom end
will be eternally grateful...................
--

Keith has a good alternative to Lundahl, and practically on his doorstep.
- AE Sowter Ltd.


Yes. A definite contender for a *killer amp*....

Andre - I don't know if you are interested but I have five new SV811-10
which I don't know what to do with.

But these two digit DHTs - they really are DIFFERENT! Yes, a 6SN7
sounds good, but only until you try a 2C22/7193. Then the 1626 is a
real rock and roll tube - great bass dynamics and boogie factor - I
still regret taking it out of my line stage. But the 26 has so much to
offer, it's on another level of sophistication altogether. All this
leaves the 9 pins in the dust. I ahven't tried the single triodes like
Andre says - stuff like the 5842, though I have some. The two small
tubes I like are the ECC40 and E80CC bit these are eclipsed by octals
and in particular the UX bases.

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...


G'd evening Keith!


It'll be 'Good Morning' when you see this! (Ran out of time earlier on!!)




I have just come back from a pleasant few hours fettling in my den of
excellence. A CCS cathode follower is bubbling nicely on the front
burner:-)


:-)


Yes, this is fundamental. A better, more *pleasing* sound is what it's
all
about AFAIAC....

Yes. My pal Peter Lewis used to call it the M (musicality) factor.
Peter was a design engineer at Leevers Rich, in the UK. He was a "real"
(not just an NG armchair) engineer, in that he was constantly building
and trying out something. He made a very good living even after
retirement
building bespoke valve amps for discerning clients. He could offer the
features and attention to detail which no larger maker can offer.


Sure a 'one man band' can offer a truly bespoke service!!



It needs to be clearly stated that not everyone will like the SET/Horn
combination - I do, but then then I'm not overly endowed with the
*technical knowledge* that makes this 'difficult' for some people...!!
;-)

Hmm. Once the technical performance has been assessed,
and we know what the amp can (or cannot) do, why not sit back and
enjoy what it has to offer?


??

That's exactly what I do do!!

(Doodoo? :-)



If valve amps are simply too expensive for impoverished/curious types,
they will never join the growing legions of 'thermionophiles'. I'm fairly
sure, that once they have got their feet wet, they will be curious about
'better amps' and, now that valves are almost parallel with SS stuff on
prices, a clear upgrade path becomes visible presenting some interesting
options.

Yes. Interesting point. My dealer pal tells me that he can offer an
entry level valve amp for about the same money as a mid price SS system.
From then on, the only way is up :-)


OK, hate to say it, but there valve amps from 80 quid up (at times) on
eBay - yes, I know they ain't going to be Ongakus at that money but I would
bet they sound just as good (in a valvey way) as all the 99 quid Richer
Sounds SS offerings!

Again, I say it's the 'foot on the first rung'!!

(You have said yourself that people rarely (ever?) migrate *from*
valves...!! ;-)


Patrick is very smart.


Yes, I seen a pic of him - looks like the President of a Rowing Club!! :-)


He keeps his outfit small, and offers a very good
build and repair service. He has an enviable reputation, and customers
recommend him to others, and keep coming back. His amplifiers are
excellent examples of "tube-craft". He is a very nice guy too, and always
ready with help and advice when asked.


I have heard nothing but the finest words for him....



Either way, valve amp builders will have to do more to convince the
buying
public that they are offering superior quality now that they are up
against stiff competition - it's possibly harsh and will probably weed
out
out a few of the weaker players, but it's for the good of all,
ultimately!!

Yes agreed. The problem is one of volume. I am told that there are
ten different brands of Chinese/Taiwanese/Thai amps all almost identical
and built in the same factory. Isn't that what British Leyland used to
call
"badge engineering" in the sixties, with Austrin, Morris, Wolsely, Riley
etc etc??


Interesting. I have seen no evidence of 'badge engineering' by the Chinese
themselves, but I believe some of the stuff offered by one of the English
importers is rebadged Ming Da...???



The Chinese buy their transformers by the ship-load.


Sure, if they are producing shiploads of amps they would need to, wouldn't
they??


An order of
20 pcs for a European winder, is cause for celebration. So costs are
many times higher.


There is more to higher costs in this country than sheer 'economies of
scale'....


This is leading to an interesting new development. There is a Swedish amp
builder I know who now offers a five year unconditional warranty,
extendable
to ten years for his valve amps (90 days for valves) This is an
expression
of confidence in the quality of his product.


Of course, but no warranty ever comes FOC....


I almost did. Obviously, radios and record players (stereograms) were
valves when I wuz a kid, but I wasn't taking much notice. Maybe I
have/had
deep-seated/ingrained memories of the sound quality and was trying
unsuccessfully to find it with SS gear??

Could be:-) My father was the proud owner of a mono set up in the
fifties, Leak TL12. We used to listen to Schubert. Then I used to sneak
upstairs and play Elvis Presley "All Shook Up" on the Dansette (or
whatever the thing was called)

Nothin' like a bit of culture on a Sunday:-)



Sing Something Simple? :-)

Go check this page out if you want a nice 'wallow'!!

http://www.whirligig-tv.co.uk/radio/musicprog.htm


:-)

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote:

While I would generally hesitate to agree with Jute, he is in this
case quite right.

A broken clock is right twice a day.