Newbie's first seperates system
 

"Glenn Richards" wrote in message
...
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

Go away, and leave the poor chap alone. You may be cynical about cables,
but they do make a difference in the analogue domain.
No, they don't, and you chickened out of proving your bull**** claims
about them, so put up or shut up. It's not cynicism, it's reality.

As I recall I told you on several occasions that I wasn't going to play
your juvenile games.

Fact - I (along with a lot of other people) can hear a difference between
cables. Both speaker cables and interconnects.

Fact - Above a certain point, changing cables will no longer make a
difference.

Fact - there are a lot of snake oil merchants around, which unfortunately
makes a lot of people cynical about the real benefits of using decent
cables.

Rest snipped.
--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrelsolutions.co.uk/


Sorry Glen, but I don't accept the above as "Facts". They may be for you,
but they certainly are not for me, therefore, they can't be facts, which
would surely be the same for everybody. They are your stongly-held opinion,
and should have been labelled as such.

This ng and others have debated the cable question endlessly, with no real
conclusion; those who believe cables sound different can't be swayed, and
those who make the measurements which show that cable differences are way
below the threshold of audibility won't be swayed into believing that some
people can hear the differences.

Can't we leave it there?

S.

Newbie's first seperates system
 

"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...

"Glenn Richards" wrote in message
...
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

Go away, and leave the poor chap alone. You may be cynical about
cables, but they do make a difference in the analogue domain.
No, they don't, and you chickened out of proving your bull**** claims
about them, so put up or shut up. It's not cynicism, it's reality.

As I recall I told you on several occasions that I wasn't going to play
your juvenile games.

Fact - I (along with a lot of other people) can hear a difference between
cables. Both speaker cables and interconnects.

Fact - Above a certain point, changing cables will no longer make a
difference.

Fact - there are a lot of snake oil merchants around, which unfortunately
makes a lot of people cynical about the real benefits of using decent
cables.

Rest snipped.
--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrelsolutions.co.uk/


Sorry Glen, but I don't accept the above as "Facts". They may be for you,
but they certainly are not for me, therefore, they can't be facts, which
would surely be the same for everybody. They are your stongly-held
opinion, and should have been labelled as such.

This ng and others have debated the cable question endlessly, with no real
conclusion; those who believe cables sound different can't be swayed, and
those who make the measurements which show that cable differences are way
below the threshold of audibility won't be swayed into believing that some
people can hear the differences.

Can't we leave it there?



Nope - only TODAY my friend Pat said he believes you *can* hear cable
differences.

He claims to have heard them himself and also went on to describe (at great
length) that he was working for an ultrasonics company and rigged up a
device to 'lubricate/clean' a wire-forming machine for a cable company
called Pirelli....

Pirelli contacted them to say not only had it improved the performance of
the wire-drawing apparatus, but that it had improved the properties of the
cable as well. It was generally agreed that it was due to changes in the
internal (crystalline?) structure of the wire itself....

??

Newbie's first seperates system
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...

"Glenn Richards" wrote in message
...
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

Go away, and leave the poor chap alone. You may be cynical about
cables, but they do make a difference in the analogue domain.
No, they don't, and you chickened out of proving your bull**** claims
about them, so put up or shut up. It's not cynicism, it's reality.

As I recall I told you on several occasions that I wasn't going to play
your juvenile games.

Fact - I (along with a lot of other people) can hear a difference
between cables. Both speaker cables and interconnects.

Fact - Above a certain point, changing cables will no longer make a
difference.

Fact - there are a lot of snake oil merchants around, which
unfortunately makes a lot of people cynical about the real benefits of
using decent cables.

Rest snipped.
--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrelsolutions.co.uk/


Sorry Glen, but I don't accept the above as "Facts". They may be for you,
but they certainly are not for me, therefore, they can't be facts, which
would surely be the same for everybody. They are your stongly-held
opinion, and should have been labelled as such.

This ng and others have debated the cable question endlessly, with no
real conclusion; those who believe cables sound different can't be
swayed, and those who make the measurements which show that cable
differences are way below the threshold of audibility won't be swayed
into believing that some people can hear the differences.

Can't we leave it there?



Nope - only TODAY my friend Pat said he believes you *can* hear cable
differences.

He claims to have heard them himself and also went on to describe (at
great length) that he was working for an ultrasonics company and rigged up
a device to 'lubricate/clean' a wire-forming machine for a cable company
called Pirelli....

Pirelli contacted them to say not only had it improved the performance of
the wire-drawing apparatus, but that it had improved the properties of the
cable as well. It was generally agreed that it was due to changes in the
internal (crystalline?) structure of the wire itself....

??
Perfectly possible, lubricating/cleaning a wire drawing machine could well
improve its performance, but why would it sound any better? What was the
cable - Pirelli make lots of different cables. No-one has ever found that
changing the internal structure of the cable makes enough difference to its
electrical properties that result in changes that can be heard.

That's the issue here. No-one claims that cables aren't different. Every
cable has differences in the well-understood electrical properties,
resistance, capacitance, inductance, dielectric losses. However, when used
in normal domestic lengths, for the transmission of audio frequency signals
from normal hi-fi sources to destinations, the measurable differences are
well below the threshold of human hearing. If someone, anyone, can genuinely
hear the differences under double-blind conditions, then let them come
forward, it would increase our understanding of human hearing mechanisms
enormously, but so far, nobody is willing to come forward and be tested.
Sadly, I think that the cable question has become an article of faith for
many people, so even if someone did try and stage the tests, and people were
willing to come forward and be tested, others would immediately claim the
tests to be invalid for a whole raft of reasons. You can't win an argument
against blind faith.

S.

Newbie's first seperates system
 

"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...

"Glenn Richards" wrote in message
...
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

Go away, and leave the poor chap alone. You may be cynical about
cables, but they do make a difference in the analogue domain.
No, they don't, and you chickened out of proving your bull**** claims
about them, so put up or shut up. It's not cynicism, it's reality.

As I recall I told you on several occasions that I wasn't going to play
your juvenile games.

Fact - I (along with a lot of other people) can hear a difference
between cables. Both speaker cables and interconnects.

Fact - Above a certain point, changing cables will no longer make a
difference.

Fact - there are a lot of snake oil merchants around, which
unfortunately makes a lot of people cynical about the real benefits of
using decent cables.

Rest snipped.
--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrelsolutions.co.uk/


Sorry Glen, but I don't accept the above as "Facts". They may be for
you, but they certainly are not for me, therefore, they can't be facts,
which would surely be the same for everybody. They are your stongly-held
opinion, and should have been labelled as such.

This ng and others have debated the cable question endlessly, with no
real conclusion; those who believe cables sound different can't be
swayed, and those who make the measurements which show that cable
differences are way below the threshold of audibility won't be swayed
into believing that some people can hear the differences.

Can't we leave it there?



Nope - only TODAY my friend Pat said he believes you *can* hear cable
differences.

He claims to have heard them himself and also went on to describe (at
great length) that he was working for an ultrasonics company and rigged
up a device to 'lubricate/clean' a wire-forming machine for a cable
company called Pirelli....

Pirelli contacted them to say not only had it improved the performance of
the wire-drawing apparatus, but that it had improved the properties of
the cable as well. It was generally agreed that it was due to changes in
the internal (crystalline?) structure of the wire itself....

??
Perfectly possible, lubricating/cleaning a wire drawing machine could well
improve its performance, but why would it sound any better? What was the
cable - Pirelli make lots of different cables. No-one has ever found that
changing the internal structure of the cable makes enough difference to
its electrical properties that result in changes that can be heard.

That's the issue here. No-one claims that cables aren't different. Every
cable has differences in the well-understood electrical properties,
resistance, capacitance, inductance, dielectric losses. However, when used
in normal domestic lengths, for the transmission of audio frequency
signals from normal hi-fi sources to destinations, the measurable
differences are well below the threshold of human hearing. If someone,
anyone, can genuinely hear the differences under double-blind conditions,
then let them come forward, it would increase our understanding of human
hearing mechanisms enormously, but so far, nobody is willing to come
forward and be tested. Sadly, I think that the cable question has become
an article of faith for many people, so even if someone did try and stage
the tests, and people were willing to come forward and be tested, others
would immediately claim the tests to be invalid for a whole raft of
reasons. You can't win an argument against blind faith.


Don't confuse me with the 'faithful' - you *know* I use mains cable on my
speakers and cheap interconnects because I can't be arsed with the stiff QED
Silver Spirals I've got lying around somewhere!!

;-)

Newbie's first seperates system
 

Hi,

"Serge Auckland" wrote in message
...

That's the issue here. No-one claims that cables aren't different. Every
cable has differences in the well-understood electrical properties,
resistance, capacitance, inductance, dielectric losses. However, when used
in normal domestic lengths, for the transmission of audio frequency
signals from normal hi-fi sources to destinations, the measurable
differences are well below the threshold of human hearing. If someone,
anyone, can genuinely hear the differences under double-blind conditions,
then let them come forward, it would increase our understanding of human
hearing mechanisms enormously, but so far, nobody is willing to come
forward and be tested.

For me, it's the degree of difference that gets claimed between cables
that seems unsupportable. This thread has already seen a claim that a cable
change resulted in hearing "a massive difference". If the difference is
really massive,
then it should not be beyond the wit of man to measure it.

I can measure a soundfield in my room with a cheapo omni microphone, then
throw a £7 bundle of Rockwool near one corner and easily, reliably, and
repeatably
measure a difference in the soundfield. This is also one blind test I can
ace every
time! However, I can't detect a difference in the soundfield when I swap
between two
'sensible' speaker cables, either with (crap) hardware or with my ears. How
massive
can the difference really be*?

Regards,

Glenn Booth.

* Assuming there is one, of course.

Newbie's first seperates system
 

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

Perhaps if you didn't have such an attitude problem, someone might
actually take up your challenge and prove you wrong.
Fact - I'm only abrasive towards arseholes like you, and the
challenge has been on the table for six years, with no takers. All we
get is chicken****s like you who run their mouths, then run a mile
when challenged to *prove* their bull****.

And yet again you prove me right by resorting to personal insults and
name-calling.

Fact - I've never needed to resort to the above in an attempt to gain
the upper hand in an argument.

Fact - I use the term "argument" with careful consideration, as your
attitude prevents this from being a "debate". A debate is where both
sides put their case forward, whereas you just rubbish anyone's ideas
that don't agree with you.

Fact - I've done blind tests on several occasions, and am satisfied that
the on every occasion the person doing the listening correctly
determined which cable was in use 100% of the time. Your response to
this, when confronted with this fact, was to shout "bulls***", knowing
full well you'd been proved wrong.

Fact - I'm not going to take your challenge for the simple reason that I
believe you would come up with some cock and bull reason for declaring
the result invalid. Plus I've got better things to do with my time. Like
actually enjoying the music... during a conversation I had with one of
the exhibitors at the Bristol hi-fi show last weekend we both came to
the conclusion that too many people have got into the mindset that it's
about the hi-fi, the technology. It's not. The hi-fi is the means to the
end, not the end in itself. What it really comes down to is the music,
and anything that means you enjoy the music more is worthwhile.

Now would you kindly crawl back into whatever hole you crawled out from
and go back to sleep, so the rest of us can have a civilised discussion
about whether or not cables make a difference, without having to filter
out all your obscenities, vulgarities and insults. There's a good boy.

--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrelsolutions.co.uk/

IT consultancy, hardware and software support, broadband installation

Newbie's first seperates system
 

Glenn Richards wrote:
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

Go away, and leave the poor chap alone. You may be cynical about cables,
but they do make a difference in the analogue domain.
No, they don't, and you chickened out of proving your bull**** claims
about them, so put up or shut up. It's not cynicism, it's reality.

As I recall I told you on several occasions that I wasn't going to play
your juvenile games.

Fact - I (along with a lot of other people) can hear a difference
between cables. Both speaker cables and interconnects.

Fact - Above a certain point, changing cables will no longer make a
difference.

Fact - there are a lot of snake oil merchants around, which
unfortunately makes a lot of people cynical about the real benefits of
using decent cables.

On each and every occasion, you resorted to name-calling, personal
insults and generally behaving like an antisocial bitter individual.

Perhaps if you didn't have such an attitude problem, someone might
actually take up your challenge and prove you wrong.

If you look at Pinkerton's history, you'll find that someone already
did prove him wrong on cables. Stewart renegged, and never paid the
chap. It seems abundantly clear that to ever hope to separate Mr.
Pinkerton from his thousand quid, you'd have to pry it from his cold,
dead hands. Assuming he isn't lying about having the money in the first
place, which is what I suspect. You probably have a better chance of
getting the "Amazing Randi" to ever give you a million dollars.





--
Glenn Richards Tel: (01453) 845735
Squirrel Solutions http://www.squirrelsolutions.co.uk/

IT consultancy, hardware and software support, broadband installation

Newbie's first seperates system
 

Newbie's first seperates system
 

In article , Glenn Richards
wrote:
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:



Fact - I'm not going to take your challenge for the simple reason that I
believe you would come up with some cock and bull reason for declaring
the result invalid.

As I think has been repeatedly explained on this ng in the past: Such a
test can be run by a 'third party', not Stewart. The results could then be
openly published and the cash awarded (if you were successful) outwith
Stewart's control.

If Stewart (or you) then come up with a "cock and bull reason" for the
results, others can then easily decide this for themselves. At least you
would have the cash, and the results that indicated some ability to do what
you repeatedly claim... if you belief is well founded and not a delusion.

Plus I've got better things to do with my time. Like actually enjoying
the music...

Like presenting your personal beliefs as "Facts", but refusing to put them
to a test which would have the ability to see if they are well founded or
not... :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Newbie's first seperates system
 

On Fri, 03 Mar 2006 08:17:04 +0000, Eiron wrote:

wrote:

If you look at Pinkerton's history, you'll find that someone already
did prove him wrong on cables. Stewart renegged, and never paid the chap.

Details? URL?

There won't be one, as this is a flat lie.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering