OK, this is good.

I have set up the Marantz *tweaked* CDP (£500 new**, apparently) on my
recently-acquired Argos POS stack (where the CD player cost nobbut 70 quid,
IIRC) thusly:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/cdpcompare.JPG

The output levels have been matched nicely (the Marantz has built-in
attenuation) and I can flick to and fro between them *instantaneously* while
they play, with the amplifier's zapper.

Here it comes.......

With a stark, clear, intimate female vocal/acoustic backing (Regina Lund
'Unique') CD on my *crystal clear* and very revealing Pinkies (Firewood
Horns with Fostex FE103E fullrange drivers) I ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT SPLIT
THEM!!

To me they sound about as *identical* as you could get!! Treble, bass,
background detail (of which there is plenty), 'recording noise' &c. - the
whole works!

Now, I fully appreciate this is unscientific and pretty meaningless as it
stands and that I need to run the same comparison with a few more
discs/other people before it becomes at all meaningful - the usual
invitation to anyone who wants to check it for themselves applies....

.....but as luck would have it, the piano tuner's due here sometime between 1
and 2 o' clock. If he'll play ball (he will if he wants to come again!) I'll
run it all past him and will post his responses (sound quality generally and
the two CDPs) here a little later on.

My curiosity about the Argos stuff was brought on by the amp I grabbed a
week or two back to use on the computer. It worked superbly amplifying
computer sound but proved to be useless for recording to the HDD, due to the
absence of a proper Tape Loop - Line Out only and ferocious hum if I looped
the computer back in to one of the other imputs! (Solved this with a dinky
little Pioneer SA-510 amp with two Tape Loops!! :-)

My contention is that it's pretty hard to get really crappy-sounding audio
gear these days (once you get away from plastic boomboxes) and I was
curious - credit to me, I think, for forking out hard cash to find out for
myself when others are content to condemn gear out of hand completely
*unheard*...!!

(From even as far away as the Other Side Of The World it seems!! ;-)


** Well aware that any chance of flogging it to anyone here is well and
truly stoked now!! ;-)

Keith G wrote:

OK, this is good.

I have set up the Marantz *tweaked* CDP (£500 new**, apparently) on my
recently-acquired Argos POS stack (where the CD player cost nobbut 70 quid,

With a stark, clear, intimate female vocal/acoustic backing (Regina Lund
'Unique') CD on my *crystal clear* and very revealing Pinkies (Firewood
Horns with Fostex FE103E fullrange drivers) I ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT SPLIT
THEM!!

To me they sound about as *identical* as you could get!! Treble, bass,
background detail (of which there is plenty), 'recording noise' &c. - the
whole works!

Nothing controversial there. It would cost manufacturers more if they were
to make cheap players sound worse than expensive ones.

....but as luck would have it, the piano tuner's due here sometime between 1
and 2 o' clock.

Could you ask him if he still tunes to 440Hz for A or has moved on to the
European standard of 442Hz?

--
Eiron

No good deed ever goes unpunished.

"Eiron" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

OK, this is good.

I have set up the Marantz *tweaked* CDP (£500 new**, apparently) on my
recently-acquired Argos POS stack (where the CD player cost nobbut 70
quid,

With a stark, clear, intimate female vocal/acoustic backing (Regina Lund
'Unique') CD on my *crystal clear* and very revealing Pinkies (Firewood
Horns with Fostex FE103E fullrange drivers) I ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT SPLIT
THEM!!

To me they sound about as *identical* as you could get!! Treble, bass,
background detail (of which there is plenty), 'recording noise' &c. - the
whole works!

Nothing controversial there. It would cost manufacturers more if they were
to make cheap players sound worse than expensive ones.


I beg to differ.

Note the word *tweaked* above - *if* the CDPs do sound the same (haven't had
the chance to get the choona to listen yet) then it implies that the
redoubtable Ken Ishiwata has got to *work* on a Marantz to get it sound as
good as an Argos cheapo CDP!! (Not to mention all those bloody copper
rivets!) Unless, of course, the standard of CDPs was significantly lower
when the Marantz was made!! (??)



....but as luck would have it, the piano tuner's due here sometime
between 1 and 2 o' clock.

Could you ask him if he still tunes to 440Hz for A or has moved on to the
European standard of 442Hz?


He tunes to 440 Hz.

As I am now forced into 'silent running' for the next hour or so I will
relate the whole story (trying to type silently) as told to me....

Goes like this:

For years the UK, Continent and US tuned A to 440 Hz. Ten years ago the
Berlin Philharmonic changed to 442 Hz and, liking it, changed again to 444
Hz (Beethoven's preference?) and, the tuner tells me, that most continental
orchestras now tune to 444. (Also James Galway had to get himself a new
flute when he joined the BPO!!)

We in the UK are 440 except the Birmingham Symphony Orchestra who is tuned
to 442 Hz...!! (The tuner 'does' them as well, apparently!)

Additionally, he advises that Steinway (London) has all 440/442/444 versions
in its 'Hire Fleet' and they will not allow them to be pulled up and down as
it unsettles them and spoils the tone. The tuner has left the piano in the
Derngate (Northampton) at 442 as he got fed up with having to keep changing
it, apparently!

That do yer?

Back later with the verdict on the CDPs. Meanwhile, here's a shot of the
'tuner's tuner':

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/tuner.JPG

Cost him £2,500 a while back apparently!!

On Thu, 11 May 2006 13:21:32 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

We in the UK are 440 except the Birmingham Symphony Orchestra who is tuned
to 442 Hz...!! (The tuner 'does' them as well, apparently!)

Additionally, he advises that Steinway (London) has all 440/442/444 versions
in its 'Hire Fleet' and they will not allow them to be pulled up and down as
it unsettles them and spoils the tone. The tuner has left the piano in the
Derngate (Northampton) at 442 as he got fed up with having to keep changing
it, apparently!

That do yer?

Don't forget all those early music orchestras that tune to 415 and a
whole slew of other frequencies in that vicinity. Luckily there are no
pianos involved - just harpsichords.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Don Prick"


Don't forget all those early music orchestras that tune to 415 and a
whole slew of other frequencies in that vicinity. Luckily there are no
pianos involved - just harpsichords.



** 415 is exactly one semitone below 440.

Play that on a chromatic instrument without retuning.





........ Phil

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...

"Don Prick"


Don't forget all those early music orchestras that tune to 415 and a
whole slew of other frequencies in that vicinity. Luckily there are no
pianos involved - just harpsichords.



** 415 is exactly one semitone below 440.

Play that on a chromatic instrument without retuning.

Most proferssional woodwind and brass players can transpose
prima vista. A semitone is quite easy.


Iain

Keith G wrote:
"Eiron" wrote in message
...

Keith G wrote:


OK, this is good.

I have set up the Marantz *tweaked* CDP (£500 new**, apparently) on my
recently-acquired Argos POS stack (where the CD player cost nobbut 70
quid,

With a stark, clear, intimate female vocal/acoustic backing (Regina Lund
'Unique') CD on my *crystal clear* and very revealing Pinkies (Firewood
Horns with Fostex FE103E fullrange drivers) I ABSOLUTELY CAN NOT SPLIT
THEM!!

To me they sound about as *identical* as you could get!! Treble, bass,
background detail (of which there is plenty), 'recording noise' &c. - the
whole works!

Nothing controversial there. It would cost manufacturers more if they were
to make cheap players sound worse than expensive ones.



I beg to differ.

Note the word *tweaked* above - *if* the CDPs do sound the same (haven't had
the chance to get the choona to listen yet) then it implies that the
redoubtable Ken Ishiwata has got to *work* on a Marantz to get it sound as
good as an Argos cheapo CDP!! (Not to mention all those bloody copper
rivets!) Unless, of course, the standard of CDPs was significantly lower
when the Marantz was made!! (??)



Just to be picky.

There are at least two others potential implications.

1. the CDP sounded the same before it was tweeked and the changes were
for marketing reasons instead of the sound.

2. the differences are not revealed by your setup.

--
Nick

Nick Gorham wrote:
Keith G wrote:
"Eiron" wrote in message
...

Keith G wrote:


OK, this is good.

I have set up the Marantz *tweaked* CDP (£500 new**, apparently) on
my recently-acquired Argos POS stack (where the CD player cost
nobbut 70 quid,

With a stark, clear, intimate female vocal/acoustic backing (Regina
Lund 'Unique') CD on my *crystal clear* and very revealing Pinkies
(Firewood Horns with Fostex FE103E fullrange drivers) I ABSOLUTELY
CAN NOT SPLIT THEM!!

To me they sound about as *identical* as you could get!! Treble,
bass, background detail (of which there is plenty), 'recording
noise' &c. - the whole works!

Nothing controversial there. It would cost manufacturers more if they
were
to make cheap players sound worse than expensive ones.



I beg to differ.

Note the word *tweaked* above - *if* the CDPs do sound the same
(haven't had the chance to get the choona to listen yet) then it
implies that the redoubtable Ken Ishiwata has got to *work* on a
Marantz to get it sound as good as an Argos cheapo CDP!! (Not to
mention all those bloody copper rivets!) Unless, of course, the
standard of CDPs was significantly lower when the Marantz was made!! (??)



Just to be picky.

There are at least two others potential implications.

1. the CDP sounded the same before it was tweeked and the changes were
for marketing reasons instead of the sound.

2. the differences are not revealed by your setup.

It would be most interesting to see what actually changed between the
original and tweaked version that can be measured. Lower noise? Lower
distortion? Who knows. Then, as the original already had measurable
parameters well below the threshold of audibility, how can improving the
figures make it sound any better?

Unless proven otherwise, I think that Special Edition products are a
marketing exercise to improve margins.

S

"Serge Auckland" wrote


It would be most interesting to see what actually changed between the
original and tweaked version that can be measured. Lower noise? Lower
distortion? Who knows. Then, as the original already had measurable
parameters well below the threshold of audibility, how can improving the
figures make it sound any better?

Unless proven otherwise, I think that Special Edition products are a
marketing exercise to improve margins.



Well, here's another one with only about 5 minutes to go:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

I wouldn't be surprised if it also goes over the 200 quid mark by the time
it's done!

(Mebbe I should put mine on eBay now!! ;-)

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
. ..
Keith G wrote:


Note the word *tweaked* above - *if* the CDPs do sound the same (haven't
had the chance to get the choona to listen yet) then it implies that the
redoubtable Ken Ishiwata has got to *work* on a Marantz to get it sound
as good as an Argos cheapo CDP!! (Not to mention all those bloody copper
rivets!) Unless, of course, the standard of CDPs was significantly lower
when the Marantz was made!! (??)


Just to be picky.

There are at least two others potential implications.

1. the CDP sounded the same before it was tweeked and the changes were for
marketing reasons instead of the sound.


:-)



2. the differences are not revealed by your setup.


Sure, but I've heard that disc on a lot of different kit and I've never
heard it clearer/better!

AFAIAC the Argos POS CDP stood up to the test. I don't go for shooting stuff
down on hearsay and I was very curious to try this stuff for myself. All I
got to do now is drag it all back to Argos for a refund before the 15 days
are up!! :-)

OK, OK - only joking!!

I'm very pleased to have it. Now I gotta get an 'F' adaptor/aerial connector
to compare the FM side of the tuner (the DAB is side is fine) with the Denon
and Technics tuners I've got. (Why do I just *know* it will also hold up
fairly well, but we'll see.....???)

I got no problem with people who can afford to spend *stooopid* amounts of
money on CDPs that are hewn from billets of solid alloy &c. (no names, no
Linns, no packdrill...) and who choose so to do, but I am always pleased to
discover a reasonably priced bit of kit that'll also do a sterling job!!
It's revising my view about cheap secondhand stuff from eBay, given the
arseache that can be added to that equation sometimes!!